R+L=J v.76

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Indeed: why tell at all?

As I read it, Varys is gloating. He had to be quiet for decades, and now that his moment of glory is approaching, he has this unique chance to boast about his schemes and the downfall of his enemies.

I felt more like he owed Kevan an explanation at least as to why he was doing this now. but lets be honest, Varys saying all that to Kevan was more for reader benefit don't you think?

[Alia of the knife]

Indeed: why tell at all?

As I read it, Varys is gloating. He had to be quiet for decades, and now that his moment of glory is approaching, he has this unique chance to boast about his schemes and the downfall of his enemies.

I agree with this. I think Varys uses this moment to tell a Lannister that they are about to experience their own "Rains of Castemere."

[MtnLion]

Allow me a little digression: would Ned label Criston Cole as a shining example of Kingsguard? I haven't read TPAQ but somehow, I have serious doubts about it.

Criston Cole was sure an anomoly. I don't know how GRRM would defend his elevation to Hand, since Kingsguard are forbidden to hold lands or titles. The point though, is that the king (Aemond is wearing the crown and acting as king for his brother Aegon II) does have the Hand and Lord Commander of the Kingsguard with him. The other two Kingsguard, far away in King's Landing, know this. The two at King's Landing are tasked with the safe transport of Aegon II's children, presumably in the king's name. It reads sensibly, but does put some speed bumps on Kingsguard responsibility.

No, Ned would never consider any of these (tPatQ) boys shining examples to the world. Fred argues that the Lord Commander Hightower, Ser Arthur and Ser Oswell submitted to a vow to Rhaegar to protect Lyanna. I don't see that as possible, first because Lyanna would need to be a part of the royal family for this comparison to work, second because Ned is never apprised of such vow to account for his high esteem of those Kingsguard. Ned must only consider the Kingsguard vow when he makes his appraisal.

[Alia of the knife]

Varys was born a slave across the Narrow Sea, was supposedly "cut," and survived to become a spy master for Aerys. But, depsite what Stannis says, I don't think that was when the "rot" in Aerys started. I think it started before him, and he actually sought Varys services BECAUSE of his distrust of his son and wife.

I think Varys is a "true believer" in his "mission" and cares about the realm, but he apparently thinks that "Aegon" will be a better steward of the realm, (given Aegons rather heartless statement regarding "some pisswater" boy who died in his place, Varys might have failed in his endeavor though).

He seemed to legitimately like Ned Stark and was horrified that Ned, (sigh), trusted LF over him. He says he doesn't know what happened to Arya, but given his contacts that apparently go as far as Quarth, I find that hard to believe, so he is either protecting her or she figures into his future plans.

The tactic that Varys uses in his discussion with Kevan is word play. He never says Aegon is Rhaegars son, only that he is "Aegon."

"Aegon is here....."

It's comprable to when Ned tells Arya that one day she will marry a king. Ned is trying to have "the talk" with her regarding her future, but the Author could have used "high lord" to suffice for the point Ned was trying to make, so again, the very use of deliberate wording is a factor in in the text.

[Ygrain]

I felt more like he owed Kevan an explanation at least as to why he was doing this now. but lets be honest, Varys saying all that to Kevan was more for reader benefit don't you think?

Perhaps he did, but not for a hundredth of a second I got the feeling that he was genuinely sorry for what he had to do, rather the contrary.

- And, yes, of course the epilogue was for the readers' benefit, but even such a thing has to be written to fit with the rest of the book, and characterisation of the person delivering the speech. And what I see in the Kevan epilogue is the same Varys who played Ned in the dungeons so cruelly.

Criston Cole was sure an anomoly. I don't know how GRRM would defend his elevation to Hand, since Kingsguard are forbidden to hold lands or titles. The point though, is that the king (Aemond is wearing the crown and acting as king for his brother Aegon II) does have the Hand and Lord Commander of the Kingsguard with him. The other two Kingsguard, far away in King's Landing, know this. The two at King's Landing are tasked with the safe transport of Aegon II's children, presumably in the king's name. It reads sensibly, but does put some speed bumps on Kingsguard responsibility.

No, Ned would never consider any of these (tPatQ) boys shining examples to the world. Fred argues that the Lord Commander Hightower, Ser Arthur and Ser Oswell submitted to a vow to Rhaegar to protect Lyanna. I don't see that as possible, first because Lyanna would need to be a part of the royal family for this comparison to work, second because Ned is never apprised of such vow to account for his high esteem of those Kingsguard. Ned must only consider the Kingsguard vow when he makes his appraisal.

Indeed - because, as I keep repeating, any other vow which prevents the KG from doing their KG duty inevitably makes them oathbreakers, which Ned wouldn't fail to notice.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Perhaps he did, but not for a hundredth of a second I got the feeling that he was genuinely sorry for what he had to do, rather the contrary.

- And, yes, of course the epilogue was for the readers' benefit, but even such a thing has to be written to fit with the rest of the book, and characterisation of the person delivering the speech. And what I see in the Kevan epilogue is the same Varys who played Ned in the dungeons so cruelly.

Indeed - because, as I keep repeating, any other vow which prevents the KG from doing their KG duty inevitably makes them oathbreakers, which Ned wouldn't fail to notice.

Yes I agree with that.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

See, that is my entire point, suppose Varys had revealed Aegon's true identity to Kevan, there is a chance - no matter how slim or unlikely - that this information travels to those Varys does not want to have it.

Littlefinger has the chance of Oswell Kettleblack to reveal to anyone that Alayne is actually Sansa. I don't think such situations can be completely avoided.

Perhaps he did, but not for a hundredth of a second I got the feeling that he was genuinely sorry for what he had to do, rather the contrary.

- And, yes, of course the epilogue was for the readers' benefit, but even such a thing has to be written to fit with the rest of the book, and characterisation of the person delivering the speech. And what I see in the Kevan epilogue is the same Varys who played Ned in the dungeons so cruelly.

Well, I do think that some small part of Varys felt sorry for having to kill Kevan, but I also believe that Varys goes by the mantra of "the goal justifies the means" (if I'm saying this correctly in english). And to reach his goal, Kevan has got to go. Varys can feel sorry, but still know that it has to happen, otherwise the goal cannot be reached.

I disagree about the comparison between the Kevan situation and the Ned situation. Certainly up until some point comparisons can be made, but Varys wanted something from Ned: he wanted Ned to accept taking the black so the war could be delayed. Varys doesn't want anything from Kevan, he only wants Kevan dead, and Kevan is already dying when Varys starts his monologue.

For Ned, Varys used Sansa as a threath, and so manipulated Ned into doing exactly what Varys wanted him to do. Kevan didn't need to be manipulated at all, though. He just had to die.

[Ygrain]

Well, I do think that some small part of Varys felt sorry for having to kill Kevan, but I also believe that Varys goes by the mantra of "the goal justifies the means" (if I'm saying this correctly in english). And to reach his goal, Kevan has got to go. Varys can feel sorry, but still know that it has to happen, otherwise the goal cannot be reached.

I disagree about the comparison between the Kevan situation and the Ned situation. Certainly up until some point comparisons can be made, but Varys wanted something from Ned: he wanted Ned to accept taking the black so the war could be delayed. Varys doesn't want anything from Kevan, he only wants Kevan dead, and Kevan is already dying when Varys starts his monologue.

For Ned, Varys used Sansa as a threath, and so manipulated Ned into doing exactly what Varys wanted him to do. Kevan didn't need to be manipulated at all, though. He just had to die.

If Kevan only had to die, there was no need to tell him that his House and all he ever struggled for would be brought down. There was absolutely no need to torture him with that, nor have him stabbed multiple times instead of a single clean blow.

[Fred of Ashai]

Allow me a little digression: would Ned label Criston Cole as a shining example of Kingsguard? I haven't read TPAQ but somehow, I have serious doubts about it.

I think Ned would agree with Barristan Selmy's assessment of Criston Cole:

The worst were those who played the game of thrones.

In other words, the worst thing a King's guard knight can do is to make up his own mind about who should be the new king when the old king dies. Cole did it, but Hightower, Dayne and Whent would never do that.

[FittleLinger]

I think Ned would agree with Barristan Selmy's assessment of Criston Cole:

In other words, the worst thing a King's guard knight can do is to make up his own mind about who should be the new king when the old king dies. Cole did it, but Hightower, Dayne and Whent would never do that.

Indeed. They seem the type that if they had their rightful king under their protection, they would defend him with their lives...

[Julia Martell]

Next n00b question: What were the circumstances of the "abduction"? I don't remember anything from the text.

She was on her way the Riverrun for Brandon's wedding, right?

I mean, did they meet up at an inn then sneak off? Did he accost her on the road and kill all her guards? Were their parties travelling together officially then not arrive? What?

[Fred of Ashai]

Criston Cole was sure an anomoly. I don't know how GRRM would defend his elevation to Hand, since Kingsguard are forbidden to hold lands or titles. The point though, is that the king (Aemond is wearing the crown and acting as king for his brother Aegon II) does have the Hand and Lord Commander of the Kingsguard with him. The other two Kingsguard, far away in King's Landing, know this. The two at King's Landing are tasked with the safe transport of Aegon II's children, presumably in the king's name. It reads sensibly, but does put some speed bumps on Kingsguard responsibility.

No, Ned would never consider any of these (tPatQ) boys shining examples to the world. Fred argues that the Lord Commander Hightower, Ser Arthur and Ser Oswell submitted to a vow to Rhaegar to protect Lyanna. I don't see that as possible, first because Lyanna would need to be a part of the royal family for this comparison to work, second because Ned is never apprised of such vow to account for his high esteem of those Kingsguard. Ned must only consider the Kingsguard vow when he makes his appraisal.

Someone should let George Martin know so he can add King Aemond to the list of Targaryen kings at the back of Game of Thrones.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

If Kevan only had to die, there was no need to tell him that his House and all he ever struggled for would be brought down. There was absolutely no need to torture him with that, nor have him stabbed multiple times instead of a single clean blow.

But then why did Varys tell Kevan all?

Next n00b question: What were the circumstances of the "abduction"? I don't remember anything from the text.

She was on her way the Riverrun for Brandon's wedding, right?

I mean, did they meet up at an inn then sneak off? Did he accost her on the road and kill all her guards? Were their parties travelling together officially then not arrive? What?

Lyanna's location from Harrenhal until the moment of her disappearance/abduction is unknown. We're not even sure if Lyanna has been at TOJ the entire war.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Someone should let George Martin know so he can add King Aemond to the list of Targaryen kings at the back of Game of Thrones.

Aegon II was the annointed King, and he was still alive. Aemond was the Prince Regent, and although he donned the crown, he was not the King.

[Julia Martell]

Lyanna's location from Harrenhal until the moment of her disappearance/abduction is unknown. We're not even sure if Lyanna has been at TOJ the entire war.

That's what I thought.

I'd been really go information the know. :shocked:

[Fred of Ashai]

Indeed. They seem the type that if they had their rightful king under their protection, they would defend him with their lives...

They have no way of knowing who the king was after Aerys died

Hightower knows that Aenys I was succeeded by his brother, not his son. He knows that Aegon V came before his dead older brother's son. He knows that Aerys had the power to write a will designating Aegon or Viserys or the only other adult Targaryen alive, Rhaella, as his successor after Rhaegar died. They know that Aerys had no reason to believe that Rhaegar had any son other than Aegon. They know that the worst King's guards are the ones, like Cole, who took it upon themselves to decide the succession.

They don't know if Aerys wrote such a will. They don't know whether Aegon is alive (Aegon is never mentioned in their discussion with Ned). In other words, they don't know who is king, or queen, at this point.

[Fred of Ashai]

Aegon II was the annointed King, and he was still alive. Aemond was the Prince Regent, and although he donned the crown, he was not the King.

I agree 100%. My point is that Aemond was never king.

If he was, though, that would be another example of an older son being skipped in favor of the King's younger brother, which would provide even more support for Viserys coming before any son of Rhaegar.

[Ygrain]

But then why did Varys tell Kevan all?

See my point above - good old gloating. He is winning, his plans coming to fruition, and he has no-one to share his success with. After the years of silence, the urge must have been irrepressible.

[Jory Cassel]

Littlefinger has the chance of Oswell Kettleblack to reveal to anyone that Alayne is actually Sansa. I don't think such situations can be completely avoided.

The secret identity of the monarch-to-be of Westeros is a little more high risk than that, wouldn't you agree? Maybe not completely avoided, but reduced to a minimum, as Varys did.

[Chebyshov]

See my point above - good old gloating. He is winning, his plans coming to fruition, and he has no-one to share his success with. After the years of silence, the urge must have been irrepressible.

Which makes (f)Aegon & Varys being Blackfyres the most plausible. I don't see cause for gloating otherwise.