R+L=J v.76

[Alia of the knife]

Thanks! I am reaffirmed in my belief that it was Ashara and Brandon who hooked up at Harrenhal.

People believe they "saw" somethint in Ned and Ashara dancing, but what they didnt see was Brandon and Ashara in the shadows.

I also find it strange that Neds best friend Robert, never makes mention of Ashara in relation to Ned.

[Ygrain]

People believe they "saw" somethint in Ned and Ashara dancing, but what they didnt see was Brandon and Ashara in the shadows.

I also find it strange that Neds best friend Robert, never makes mention of Ashara in relation to Ned.

Indeed!

As for Robert, he

1) knows Ned would never dishonour a lady

2) knows Ned never had the opportunity to do so during the Rebellion

3) both

[Lyse Stark]

Indeed!

As for Robert, he

1) knows Ned would never dishonour a lady

2) knows Ned never had the opportunity to do so during the Rebellion

3) both

And we know how far-fetched Fred of Ashai's theories can be and how they doesn't make sense in the context of the story. He claimed that Alys Karstark was the blue rose on the Wall, but it, sadly enough in my opinion, didn't make sense because the trail of blue roses through the books points towards R+L=J and Jon himself. The claim that Lyanna was a hostage lacks textual evidence, and the KG scene actually points toward Jon as legitimate and a hidden king.

[Rhaegar I Targaryen]

And we know how far-fetched Fred of Ashai's theories can be and how they doesn't make sense in the context of the story. He claimed that Alys Karstark was the blue rose on the Wall, but it, sadly enough in my opinion, didn't make sense because the trail of blue roses through the books points towards R+L=J and Jon himself. The claim that Lyanna was a hostage lacks textual evidence, and the KG scene actually points toward Jon as legitimate and a hidden king.

There's no way the blue roses symbolized Alys Karstark :lol:

[Ser Pollo Loco]

Basically yes, there is a theory that he was trying to recreate the original triad with a second daughter as Visenya, but the only problem is, someone who is supposedly following the prophesy to the letter, he would have gotten the sisters backwards.

Rhaenys was actually the younger one, while Visenya was the older one, so I don't really go with that.

Rhaenys was older than Aegon, original trio idea originates when Aegon is born and he see's the comet?

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Thanks! I am reaffirmed in my belief that it was Ashara and Brandon who hooked up at Harrenhal.

An additional hint to this is that Barristan is respectfull and kind to Ned, and speaks about him that way as well, yet the memory of Stark who dishonered Ashara at Harrenhal is a bitter one. That hints to Ashara's Stark was not Ned, whom Barristan seems to respect, but another, and Brandon had the right age and reputation for it.

Benjen would have been way too young.

Not just that, but by talking about Ashara as the possible mother, people might find inconsistencies in Ned's story... and get an idea of who Jon really is, which is the one thing Ned fears the most. Better to forbid all speculation about Jon's mother, lest someone stumble over the right idea.

That as well, yes :)

[Alia of the knife]

Indeed!

As for Robert, he

1) knows Ned would never dishonour a lady

2) knows Ned never had the opportunity to do so during the Rebellion

3) both

:agree:

Rhaenys was older than Aegon, original trio idea originates when Aegon is born and he see's the comet?

"Aegon's eldest sister was a passionate, temperamental woman. She was both stern and sensual, more voluptuous than her sister, more passionate, but with a dark and unforgiving side. She was a warrior, more comfortable in ringmail than in silk, she was apt to dress as a warrior, with her long silver-gold hair in braided coils or bound in rings.^[1] She wielded the Valyrian steel sword Dark Sister. She was described as having a "harsh beauty" and was reputed to have dabbled in sorcery. While her sister Rhaenys was the flirt Visenya was the seductress. It is said that her brother-husband Aegon spent ten nights with Rhaenys for every one with her"

My observation was that most followers of prophsy follow it to the letter, so if Rhaegar was trying to manipulate prohesy, (which is not a good idea to begin with), and bring it about, he would have followed everything right down to the proper naming of the daughters in birth order.

Rhaegars first daughter he named Rhaenys.

If he was going to do it right, she should have been "Visenya" and Lyannas "daughter" should have been Rhaenys.

This is a signal to me that whatever he read, I don't think he was trying to recreate the original trio in that regard. And Kevan Lannister remembers him as wanting sons.

[Fred of Ashai]

Cersei is a pathological liar, so you shouldn't trust anything that comes out of her mouth to be true.

I think we can believe that statement since we have independent verification from every POV character in Game of Thrones that Cersei went to Winterfell. And we know she was at the dinner where Jon got drunk and made a scene.

[Ghost's Shadow]

Perhaps the mother had a say in the naming and picked the second name, that's all.

[Julia Martell]

I have a feeling Elia was in on all this. Don't have any evidence, but she was Dornish after all.

[Ser Pollo Loco]

:agree:

"Aegon's eldest sister was a passionate, temperamental woman. She was both stern and sensual, more voluptuous than her sister, more passionate, but with a dark and unforgiving side. She was a warrior, more comfortable in ringmail than in silk, she was apt to dress as a warrior, with her long silver-gold hair in braided coils or bound in rings.^[1] She wielded the Valyrian steel sword Dark Sister. She was described as having a "harsh beauty" and was reputed to have dabbled in sorcery. While her sister Rhaenys was the flirt Visenya was the seductress. It is said that her brother-husband Aegon spent ten nights with Rhaenys for every one with her"

My observation was that most followers of prophsy follow it to the letter, so if Rhaegar was trying to manipulate prohesy, (which is not a good idea to begin with), and bring it about, he would have followed everything right down to the proper naming of the daughters in birth order.

Rhaegars first daughter he named Rhaenys.

If he was going to do it right, she should have been "Visenya" and Lyannas "daughter" should have been Rhaenys.

This is a signal to me that whatever he read, I don't think he was trying to recreate the original trio in that regard. And Kevan Lannister remembers him as wanting sons.

I'm not really an advocate for the theory or anything, but I don't think Rhaegar thought the prophesy applied to his children until after Aegon was born, so his recreation didn't apply when he named his daughter. But i'm also not sure he "knew" that lyanna was going to give him a girl, he wanted a child, girl or boy

[Alia of the knife]

I have a feeling Elia was in on all this. Don't have any evidence, but she was Dornish after all.

It's not impossible.

But, bear in mind that coming from Dornish society where women allegedly have more rights, they have more recourse, and are actually LESS likely to tolerate an affront, (if she considered it an affront), so I imagine it would have to come down to it really being a political/power advantage to House Martell to "be okay" with such an arrangement and go along with it.

I'm not really an advocate for the theory or anything, but I don't think Rhaegar thought the prophesy applied to his children until after Aegon was born, so his recreation didn't apply when he named his daughter. But i'm also not sure he "knew" that lyanna was going to give him a girl, he wanted a child, girl or boy

:agree:

[Rhaegar I Targaryen]

I have a feeling Elia was in on all this. Don't have any evidence, but she was Dornish after all.

I've thought this for a long time but I was too scared to speak up about it :P

Maybe she's the one who told Gerold Hightower where to find Rhaegar ? :dunno:

[corbon]

I think you are the only one who still believes that one King's guard has to be with the king at all times.

I think rather that you are the only one stuck trying to relate completely different circumstances, when kings had dragons and were accustomed to going without KG by pure physical necessity to a general rule in the 'modern', post-dragon, circumstance

People believe they "saw" somethint in Ned and Ashara dancing, but what they didnt see was Brandon and Ashara in the shadows.

I also find it strange that Neds best friend Robert, never makes mention of Ashara in relation to Ned.

Who even believes that they saw something in the dancing? I don't think we are given any clues that people thought Ned and Ashara had something going on until after Ned visits Starfall, takes away a baby, and Ashara commits suicide. Even Harwin, who is the only commentator who may have been present at Harrenhal, doesn't indicate clearly that they were an item, let alone why he thinks that, just that they could have been without dishonour.

My observation was that most followers of prophsy follow it to the letter, so if Rhaegar was trying to manipulate prohesy, (which is not a good idea to begin with), and bring it about, he would have followed everything right down to the proper naming of the daughters in birth order.

Rhaegars first daughter he named Rhaenys.

If he was going to do it right, she should have been "Visenya" and Lyannas "daughter" should have been Rhaenys.

This is a signal to me that whatever he read, I don't think he was trying to recreate the original trio in that regard. And Kevan Lannister remembers him as wanting sons.

Remember that he first thought he was the PtwP. The first indication we have of that belief change is the the vision of just after Aegon is born. So when Rhaenys was born he was probably not planning for the three heads of the dragon, believing himself to be the key rather than his son.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

Rhaenys was older than Aegon, original trio idea originates when Aegon is born and he see's the comet?

The thing is I dont think the 3 heads has to be siblings. Maester Aemon seems to think not. Actually Rhaegar claims Aegon is the PtwP before a third child is born. Not once Aegon has another sibling, then he will be tPtwP.

[Julia Martell]

It went something like this:

R: "Look Elia, honey. I need to have another kid so I can fulfill this here prophesy I told you about when the little guy was born. But apparently having another kid will kill you. Since I'm "fond" of you and don't wish you dead, I was thinking we could revive that wonderful old Targaryan tradition of polygamy. It'll be fun!"

E: "Hmm, who did you have in mind? She better be hot."

R: "I was thinking that fifteen-year-old we met last year at that Tournament where I kick ass. She's totally into me. She seemed quite pleased when I made her Queen of Love and Beauty."

E: "Yeah, that was a bit embarrassing for me, to tell you the truth."

R: "Sorry about that. We'll do that think you like tonight to make up for it."

E: "This all sound alright, I guess. But isn't she betrothed to Robert Baratheon?"

R: "Oh, he won't mind. He's not one to settle down anyways."

[aDanceWithFlagons]

It went something like this:

R: "Look Elia, honey. I need to have another kid so I can fulfill this here prophesy I told you about when the little guy was born. But apparently having another kid will kill you. Since I'm "fond" of you and don't wish you dead, I was thinking we could revive that wonderful old Targaryan tradition of polygamy. It'll be fun!"

E: "Hmm, who did you have in mind? She better be hot."

R: "I was thinking that fifteen-year-old we met last year at that Tournament where I kick ass. She's totally into me. She seemed quite pleased when I made her Queen of Love and Beauty."

E: "Yeah, that was a bit embarrassing for me, to tell you the truth."

R: "Sorry about that. We'll do that think you like tonight to make up for it."

E: "This all sound alright, I guess. But isn't she betrothed to Robert Baratheon?"

R: "Oh, he won't mind. He's not one to settle down anyways."

Haha!

I read in an older thread that the app stated Rhaegar abducted Lyanna with the help of Arthur and Whent. Then later Aerys sent Hightower to the ToJ to call Rhaegar back to his duties. Rhaegar ordered all 3 KG to guard over Lyanna.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Perhaps Rhaegar wanted to secure the inheritance of the child he wanted Aegon to have with Rhaenys. The original Aegon had a son with both Rhaenys and Visenya, but Aenys, his son with Rhaenys, was 5 years older than Maegor, his son with Visenya.

Yet it was Visenya who was the eldest of the two sisters, which led to arguments all over whether it shouldn't be Maegor who should inherit he throne, instead of Aenys, who despite being older, was a child from Aegons younger sister.

Perhaps Rhaegar wanted to avoid such discussions, and the wars about inheritance that could potentially follow such discussions, by making sure Rhaenys was the elder, with the inheriting line continuing through Aegon and Rhaenys.

[Lyse Stark]

Perhaps Rhaegar wanted to secure the inheritance of the child he wanted Aegon to have with Rhaenys. The original Aegon had a son with both Rhaenys and Visenya, but Aenys, his son with Rhaenys, was 5 years older than Maegor, his son with Visenya.

Yet it was Visenya who was the eldest of the two sisters, which led to arguments all over whether it shouldn't be Maegor who should inherit he throne, instead of Aenys, who despite being older, was a child from Aegons younger sister.

Perhaps Rhaegar wanted to avoid such discussions, and the wars about inheritance that could potentially follow such discussions, by making sure Rhaenys was the elder, with the inheriting line continuing through Aegon and Rhaenys.

And when Tywin's goons Gregor Clegane and Amory Lorch killed both, it sounded the death knell for Aegon VI And Rhaenys Targaryen's line, and now it's gonna be Jon who continue the line with Val.

[Hardstone]

Ooops, wrong thread. Sorry!