R+L=J v.76

[Fred of Ashai]

Wait, wait, wait.

First Rhaegar is defeated at the Trident. Then Tywin decides to side with the rebels and starts toward King's Landing where Pycell talks Arys into opening the gate. The city is sacked. Elia, Rhaenys, and possibly Aegon are killed. Jamie kills Aerys and sits on the throne. Ned comes in.

He knows at the point that Aegon is dead. Then he goes to Storms End to lift the siege. Then the goes to the Tower of Joy. Aegon would be dead for quite a while at that point. That would make any other legitimate sons Rhaegar had, not only his heir, but King.

When Ned gets to the tower, he believes that Aegon is dead because he saw the body Tywin claimed to be Aegon. But there is no reason to think the King's guards believed Aegon to be dead. They know what happened to Aerys, Rhaegar, Rhaella and Viserys, but here is no mention of what happened to Rhaenys or Aegon. Or Elia, for that matter.

[MtnLion]

It's very simple, really.

During the Defiance at Duskendale, there was a prolonged siege before Barristan went in. It was not immediate. Aerys was without any (living) king's guards for the duration of the siege.

Ned thinks ill of Jaime, who killed the man who slew Ned's father and brother.

Ned thinks ill of Jaime because he is an oathbreaker/kingslayer. Don't know how that could be any plainer in the text, except to say it directly.

Ned thinks highly of Hightower because Hightower did his job by keeping Lyanna hostage.

Don't know where you get that idea, that Hightower kept Lyanna hostage, care to dig up a quote? Ned thinks highly of the Kingsguard ("they were a wonder, an example for all the word, and the finest was Ser Arthur Dayne") because they lived up to the oath that Jaime broke. 'Tis as plain as the nose on your face.

Martin has said that Rhaegar convinced Hightower to stay at the tower by giving him an order because the King's guards have no other option but to obey Rhaegar's order.

That is a fabrication. Perhaps you want to give the quote in full? Rhaegar cannot convince Hightower to stay ad guard Lyanna unless she is a royal family member. Put your thinking cap on and approach the dilemma like the White Bull would. It is the middle of a rebellion that has turned serious. Here is Lyanna a fine hostage, she could help end the rebellion if you take her back to your king. Hightower was not tasked with obeying Rhaegar, by the king, which is where his orders come. So, it even becomes difficult for Rhaegar to convince Hightower to stay, and I am sure that Arthur and Oswell could have played a significant part in having him stay.

[MtnLion]

Aerys' King's guards were sworn to obey Rhaegar. From a Feast for Crows, Rhaegar gives Jaime an order, Aerys is not present, Jaime argues with Rhaegar, and then Jon Darry of the King's guard intervenes:

There is also a quote from a "So Spake Martin" where George Martin says that the reason the King's guards fought Ned at the tower was because they were obeying an order from Rhaegar.

In Game of Thrones, when Ned is Hand, Barristan obeys Ned's orders.

In the Hedge Knight, the King's guards obey Prince Maekar's orders.

In the Princess and the Queen, the King's guards obey Larys Strong's orders.

Et cetera.

You may be thinking of a Dance With Dragons where Barristan says it is up to the king to bestow King's guard protection on wives, mistresses and bastards. If that means only the king can do it, how did Lyanna wind up with King's guard protection when Aerys was alive but did not know where she was?

In other words, if you believe that Rhaegar had the authority to extend King's guard protection to Lyanna while Aerys was still king, he could do it regardless of whether Lyanna was a wife or a mistress. If he did not have that authority, there was no basis for the King's guard to stay at the tower when Rhaegar returned to King's Landing.

Produce that, Fred. You are at best distorting what GRRM said, but I would say closer to fabricating.

[MtnLion]

When Ned gets to the tower, he believes that Aegon is dead because he saw the body Tywin claimed to be Aegon. But there is no reason to think the King's guards believed Aegon to be dead. They know what happened to Aerys, Rhaegar, Rhaella and Viserys, but here is no mention of what happened to Rhaenys or Aegon. Or Elia, for that matter.

Quite right, this is Ned's dream. Ned does not like what happened to Elia and the children, and he avoids anything that would stir his animosity towards Robert. Ned does label Viserys "Prince" with the implication being that Aegon is dead.

[Fred of Ashai]

Quite right, this is Ned's dream. Ned does not like what happened to Elia and the children, and he avoids anything that would stir his animosity towards Robert. Ned does label Viserys "Prince" with the implication being that Aegon is dead.

Viserys was a prince the day he was born, just like any younger son of a king (eg Maekar, Tommen, and so on). Why would Ned's calling Viserys a prince in any way imply that Aegon was dead?

[Fred of Ashai]

Ned thinks ill of Jaime because he is an oathbreaker/kingslayer. Don't know how that could be any plainer in the text, except to say it directly.

Don't know where you get that idea, that Hightower kept Lyanna hostage, care to dig up a quote? Ned thinks highly of the Kingsguard ("they were a wonder, an example for all the word, and the finest was Ser Arthur Dayne") because they lived up to the oath that Jaime broke. 'Tis as plain as the nose on your face.

Exactly. The King's guards swore to obey, not to judge.

Jaime was ordered to kill his own father. Instead, he killed Aerys, who had murdered Ned's father and brother. Ned thinks Jaime did the wrong thing.

Hightower tried to prevent Ned from reaching his dying sister. Ned thinks Hightower did the right thing.

Ned has screwy values, but at least he is consistent.

[Fred of Ashai]

Produce that, Fred. You are at best distorting what GRRM said, but I would say closer to fabricating.

Here you go:

Shaw: Can you explain why the King's Guard chose to stand and fight Ned at the Tower of the Joy instead of protecting the remaining royal family members?

Martin: The King's Guards don't get to make up their own orders. They serve the king, they protect the king and the royal family, but they're also bound to obey their orders, and if Prince Rhaegar gave them a certain order, they would do that. They can't say, "No we don't like that order, we'll do something else."

The question is, why did the King's guards stay and fight, after Aerys and Rhaegar were dead. The answer is that they have to obey Rhaegar's orders -- they don't have the option of doing something else, even of it means the king is protected by people who aren't members of the King's guard. As happened in the Princess and the Queen.

[Lyse Stark]

:sigh: The KG was guarding Jon, the rightful king when Ned found them. And he was born legitimate, but when Ned took him in, Jon grew up as a bastard. It was a safety measure in order to protect him from Robert. Fred of Ashai, your reasoning lacks evidence. I think Rhaegar wouldn't take Lyanna hostage, but Aerys would. And I think that Rhaegar left her at the Tower of Joy in order to protect her from his insane father.

So when Rhaegar, Aerys and Aegon died, Jon was literally born a king.

[corbon]

When Ned gets to the tower, he believes that Aegon is dead because he saw the body Tywin claimed to be Aegon. But there is no reason to think the King's guards believed Aegon to be dead. They know what happened to Aerys, Rhaegar, Rhaella and Viserys, but here is no mention of what happened to Rhaenys or Aegon. Or Elia, for that matter.

Certainly there is a reason to think they believe Aegon dead.

The same data source they have for Aerys' death is almost certain to also mention Aegon's death.

The origin of that data will be the rebels - because the loyalists in KL are destroyed by the time that data can get out. The rebels have a vested interest in announcing to the whole realm the regime change, and emphasising the destruction of the old ruling line as part of that, to help reduce resistance to the new regime and encourage acceptance. Aerys is dead, Rhaegar is dead, Aegon is dead, child-prince Viserys is fled to Dragonstone, Robert Baratheon is crowned King. Thats going to be one message going out to every single location they can reach, with orders to disseminate completely. And eventually, someone seems to have passed it along to ToJ.

Chance are very very high that if they know of the death of Aerys, they know of the death of Aegon. And Rhaegar. And the location of Viserys.

Here you go:

The question is, why did the King's guards stay and fight, after Aerys and Rhaegar were dead. The answer is that they have to obey Rhaegar's orders -- they don't have the option of doing something else, even of it means the king is protected by people who aren't members of the King's guard. As happened in the Princess and the Queen.

Its a mistake to assume Martin's answer applies directly to the question. He is deliberately tricky like that. His answer will be accurate, but often accurately meaning something slightly different than what the question asked. If he didn't do that people could easily work around him to get spoilers, which he is very careful of protecting. They have tried exactly that in fact (see the origin of Ashara not being nailed down in starfall during the war as an example, especially includin the reason that question was asked).

Much like Ned telling Robert "her name was Wylla" in fact.

What Martin actually says is that if Prince Rhaegar gave them an order, they would obey it. He doesn't actually say Rhaegar did give such an order. He also leaves unsaid, because its logically necessary, that there are conditions upon which they would not obey an order from Rhaegar - an order to kill the king being an obvious example. And equally, conditions upon which an order from Rhaegar which they were obeying became superceded and they'd stop obeying it - because the situation had change considerably and it now clashed with their primary duties.

If Rhaegar said to a KG "stand here and guard this door" and the king walked past the door, down the hall, and was jumped by assassins, would the KG guarding the door abandon the door and go to defend the king? Absolutely! Rhaegar's orders, if he gave them, do not last forever under all circumstances.

[MtnLion]

Exactly. The King's guards swore to obey, not to judge.

Jaime was ordered to kill his own father. Instead, he killed Aerys, who had murdered Ned's father and brother. Ned thinks Jaime did the wrong thing.

Hightower tried to prevent Ned from reaching his dying sister. Ned thinks Hightower did the right thing.

Ned has screwy values, but at least he is consistent.

Ned reveres Arthur, Oswell, and Hightower because they kept their vow. Ned despises Jaime because he broke his vow. Both are to protect and defend the king, the Kingsguard's primary purpose.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Its a mistake to assume Martin's answer applies directly to the question. He is deliberately tricky like that. His answer will be accurate, but often accurately meaning something slightly different than what the question asked.

Actually, in this case it's likely that Martin's answer responds more directly to the question he was asked, rather than less. If you look back, the question was phrased in terms of the KG choosing their deployment. And Martin's response is, essentially - "choice doesn't come into it; that's not how it works."

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Hey all, a couple of questions...

First, does anyone have the source where GRRM confirmed that Lyanna was the name referred to here:

Rubies flew like drops of blood from the chest of a dying prince, and he sank to his knees in the water and with his last breath murmured a woman’s name...

Second... when did this thread change to all Kingsguard all the time? As far as I'm concerned this from Jaime says it all:

'You swore a vow to guard the king, not to judge him.’ That was the White Bull, loyal to the end

Seems to me if people aren't convinced after several threads worth of "discussion" it just might be a lost cause. :leaving:

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Hey all, a couple of questions...

First, does anyone have the source where GRRM confirmed that Lyanna was the name referred to here:

Rubies flew like drops of blood from the chest of a dying prince, and he sank to his knees in the water and with his last breath murmured a woman’s name...

It's stated in the app

[Ygrain]

It's stated in the app

Can't it be a SSM, either? I may be wrong but I'd say that the information was floating around even before I started hearing about the app.

[FittleLinger]

Can't it be a SSM, either? I may be wrong but I'd say that the information was floating around even before I started hearing about the app.

Yeah, I seem to remember, although I might be mistaken, that he confirmed it on the same reading where he confirmed that Brienne shouted "sword".

[MtnLion]

Can't it be a SSM, either? I may be wrong but I'd say that the information was floating around even before I started hearing about the app.

:agree: As I recall GRRM confirmed that the woman's name was "Lyanna" long before the app. Probably 2011-12 timeframe.

ETA: I recall it being after the first season of GoT.

[MtnLion]

Hey all, a couple of questions...

First, does anyone have the source where GRRM confirmed that Lyanna was the name referred to here:

Rubies flew like drops of blood from the chest of a dying prince, and he sank to his knees in the water and with his last breath murmured a woman’s name...

Second... when did this thread change to all Kingsguard all the time? As far as I'm concerned this from Jaime says it all:

'You swore a vow to guard the king, not to judge him.’ That was the White Bull, loyal to the end

Seems to me if people aren't convinced after several threads worth of "discussion" it just might be a lost cause. :leaving:

That is one of Fred's misquotes. ;) He seems to read "obey" instead of "guard".

[Alia of the knife]

Hey all, a couple of questions...

First, does anyone have the source where GRRM confirmed that Lyanna was the name referred to here:

Rubies flew like drops of blood from the chest of a dying prince, and he sank to his knees in the water and with his last breath murmured a womans name...

Second... when did this thread change to all Kingsguard all the time? As far as I'm concerned this from Jaime says it all:

'You swore a vow to guard the king, not to judge him. That was the White Bull, loyal to the end

Seems to me if people aren't convinced after several threads worth of "discussion" it just might be a lost cause. :leaving:

On the name on Rhaegars lips.

It was confirmed in the app.,but it was a strong speculation prior.

(Hope you are still seeing flowers) :)

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Can't it be a SSM, either? I may be wrong but I'd say that the information was floating around even before I started hearing about the app.

Could be, but that's one SSM I don't know the existence of.

Yeah, I seem to remember, although I might be mistaken, that he confirmed it on the same reading where he confirmed that Brienne shouted "sword".

Might be it. But I know that there are summaries about that particular reading, so perhaps, if someone finds that again, we can be sure whether or not it was in there.

[FittleLinger]

Could be, but that's one SSM I don't know the existence of.

Might be it. But I know that there are summaries about that particular reading, so perhaps, if someone finds that again, we can be sure whether or not it was in there.

I looked, and that's not it.

The wiki's source is the app, maybe we're all mistaken and "remembering" things from before the app, although that'd be weird...