Heresy 117

[wolfmaid7]

And isn't the World Book meant to be written from the perspective of a maester living around the time of Robert's Rebellion? Given the repeatedly mentioned lack of hard evidence about history before the Andal invasion, is there any reason to believe what the World Book says about Bran the Builder? It may be an accurate account of what is believed to have happened thousands of years ago, but it's probably not an accurate account of what actually happened thousands of years ago.

I was under this impression too so i'm skeptical myself about calling certain information with regards to ancient history as facts.

[Lord Ravenstark]

Art and music flourished in the cities of the Rhoyne, and it is said their people had their own magic—a water magic very different from the sorceries of Valyria, which were woven of blood and fire. Though united by blood and culture and the river that had given them birth, the Rhoynish cities were elsewise fiercely independent, each with its own prince . . . or princess, for amongst these river folk, women were regarded as the equals of men.

Here.

So there is fire magic, earth magic, water magic and blood magic. So far.

So magic is truly flavored. Any opinion?

[Melifeather]

So there is fire magic, earth magic, water magic and blood magic. So far.

So magic is truly flavored. Any opinion?

Technically, I would say the Children/Singers also practiced water magic.

[Stark@heart]

Isn't Quaithe suppose to be a Spellbinder or Shadow binder? So far she hasn't affiliated herself with the fire and blood magic loving Red Lot so maybe there's an air magic practiced in Assiahi(sp)?

That would be all 4 elemental magics represented plus blood / life force, which I think can be used along with any of the other 4 to "level up" so to speak. But I wonder if two kinds of elemental magics can be used together?

Just spitballing but...

Could this be where the Stonemen and greyscale came from? The unsuccessful melding of fire & water magic? and Others from an earth and water/ice magic mix? Or air magic and water magic since fogs & mists seem to be associated with both?

Really I was just wondering about Quaithe and her powers/ magic and where she's gonna fit into what we know or if she'll bring a new magic and perspective into play like Mel did.

[Melifeather]

Was I the last heretic to find the latest Tyrian chapter from Winds? I found it while looking through my WOIAF app for Bran the Builder. He's not in my app, unless I need an upgrade?

[Urrax2]

Was I the last heretic to find the latest Tyrian chapter from Winds? I found it while looking through my WOIAF app for Bran the Builder. He's not in my app, unless I need an upgrade?

Not in my app either, and I'm up to date.

[Khal Shaggydog]

Mothers smothering their children rather than seeing them starve, and old men going out "hunting" as a way of sacrificing themselves so they are no longer taking up valuable food - both seem to be ways of sacrificing living humans to the winter, ice, cold - much like Craster. Could explain the ability of whatever drove the Long Night to still be a force, even if there have been no WWs sighted for thousands of years.

[Black Crow]

Was there a blurb of this posted somewhere? Because I thought Bran the Builder was so far put forward as a mythical person, that he was akin to an ancient Greek hero.

Oh, and he did mention that he put lots of legends into the books such as Bran the Builder. Bran the builder is supposed to have built the Wall, Winterfell, and Storms End. GRRM mentioned that he has become a legend so that people will look at a structure and say "wow, it must have been built by Bran the Builder" when it actually was not. This is GRRM's attempt on creating a world with myths and legends so if at some point you see, "They say it was built by Bran the Builder or Lann the Clever" realize that its part of the mythos.

If time is permiting would you mind giving a brief description on how the wall was constructed?

Much of those details are lost in the mists of time and legend. No one can even say for certain if Brandon the Builder ever lived. He is as remote from the time of the novels as Noah and Gilgamesh are from our own time.

[Jojen]

The story of The Shrouded Lord sounds a little bit like the story of NK. Ice magic might just be a variation or corruption of water magic, and the icy kiss of the WW just a version of the "grey kiss."

[Black Crow]

OK, just a quick technical note.

I'm off to France in a few hours. This time around I should have internet access once I get there, but nothing in this life is certain so if I haven't posted anything else by say Monday assume that I'm missing in action, which will mean a volunteer to to the OP for Heresy 118 when the time comes.

Good night all.

[wolfmaid7]

So there is fire magic, earth magic, water magic and blood magic. So far.

So magic is truly flavored. Any opinion?

Magic itself is just the energy of the earth,the variations depends on how individuals use it. So for instance some may choose the elements as the anchor hence "elemental magic".Others may choose blood, thus "Blood magic".

Isn't Quaithe suppose to be a Spellbinder or Shadow binder? So far she hasn't affiliated herself with the fire and blood magic loving Red Lot so maybe there's an air magic practiced in Assiahi(sp)?

That would be all 4 elemental magics represented plus blood / life force, which I think can be used along with any of the other 4 to "level up" so to speak. But I wonder if two kinds of elemental magics can be used together?

Just spitballing but...

Could this be where the Stonemen and greyscale came from? The unsuccessful melding of fire & water magic? and Others from an earth and water/ice magic mix? Or air magic and water magic since fogs & mists seem to be associated with both?

Really I was just wondering about Quaithe and her powers/ magic and where she's gonna fit into what we know or if she'll bring a new magic and perspective into play like Mel did.

To draw a real world comparison when performing elemental magic there are correspodents that go together and others that don't. Air and Fire are good and Earth and water are good. Creation was said to occur using Fire and Ice they are what is called "primodial Elements" and should not be used together........at all. GRRM has used Elemental magic in the form of innvoking "the quaters" so i don't see why he can't engage in the others.

Mothers smothering their children rather than seeing them starve, and old men going out "hunting" as a way of sacrificing themselves so they are no longer taking up valuable food - both seem to be ways of sacrificing living humans to the winter, ice, cold - much like Craster. Could explain the ability of whatever drove the Long Night to still be a force, even if there have been no WWs sighted for thousands of years.

I've longed held that "the cold" (coined term) is an entity and autonomous from the WWs,it is behind the longnight and what Craster is giving his babies too.The exposure of babies during this time was a desperate act that evolved into the ritual seen today.

The story of The Shrouded Lord sounds a little bit like the story of NK. Ice magic might just be a variation or corruption of water magic, and the icy kiss of the WW just a version of the "grey kiss."

This may help to shed light Ice magic is also called "chaos magic" because it uses the cold properties of Water. I don't think the WWs are doing any kissing if we look at the variations and distance apart of things dying and raisng.

If we look at Thistle and Toumond's son who died and was just Wighted. What's doing the Wighting is already in the environment... Its the Fog on the Sorrows and the White Cold in the North.It is what is doing the transformation and the Wighting...Not the WWs.This i think is a good question to ask.What is responsible if anything for the Fog on the Sorrows and the Fog/White cold North.It can't be the WWs that's above their pay grade.They are not on the Rhoyne,but the same unatural Fog is,as it is in the North.

[Melifeather]

The story of The Shrouded Lord sounds a little bit like the story of NK. Ice magic might just be a variation or corruption of water magic, and the icy kiss of the WW just a version of the "grey kiss."

I agree their stories sound similar. They were upstart leaders of their respective side (ice and fire) and they were overthrown. It sounds like they each tried to revive, release or worship their respective side. The White Walkers were already banished beyond the Wall prior to the Nights King, and the dragonlords were defeated and drowned prior to the Shrouded Lord. And it appears both failed in whatever they were trying to do.

[MaesterSam]

No, as I said above, they're soldiers,like the Bloody Mummers but more terrifying, used to intimidate and drive out those humans who don't take the hint and leave of their own accord.

In the Long Night they scoured out the survivors of the Winter; now they are scouring out Mance's people.

And now to bed. See you all tomorrow.

The only thing I don't like about the "WW are created and controlled by the Singers" theory is that it doesn't explain why this unstoppable army was not used against the Andals. They were much more numerous and much more destructive than the FM, burning weirwood trees and forcing all the old races to go hide behind the Wall. Given that the WW were so very successful during the long night, why not use them again? The FM were losing the war, so I"m sure if the Singers had said "hey guys, we need some extra sacrifices this month and we'll take care of our common enemy, just stay out of the way and store up some extra food for a long winter" they probably would've gone for it.

The Singers used the Hammer of the Waters (unsuccessfully) during this war, which proves that there was plenty of magic available... and since the Wall was constructed by the Singers and/or the FM, surely they could have made an exception and opened some gates for their new winter army.

Our theories are so close but so different!! I agree the singers caused the Long Night, although it is equally possible the LN simply occurred due to a natural imbalance caused by the rise of humans but I'm willing to blame the singers for the sake of argument. Anyway, I don't see this story really having a "big bad", Show-Jorah spoke true when he said "there's good & evil on either side in every war ever fought". That said, I do think Craster's Boys & their Army of the Damned ARE a significant threat to Westeros and the rest of the world. So I see the singers as desperately trying to maintain a balance, not because they are some sort of mystic guardians tasked with such but because they have decided to. Singer society is based on the principle of balance. In the long ages when they had Westeros to themselves they interpreted "natural balance" into everything they saw. They rationalised that their numbers were few but their years long as being the will of the gods to maintain balance and then along comes humanity. The singers must have been waiting for nature to correct itself, convinced that the gods would put a wolf among the deer but when none appeared they decided to take matters into their own hands. They worked magic and learned to sing the song of ice. This is where we diverge completely, I do not think the singers intentionally created the WW. I think they unleashed the cold that raises the dead and with the use of a greenseer were able to control the zombie horde. But magic is a sword without a hilt and they were not able to anticipate what would happen if the cold took a living host.

I love this! AWESOME THEORY. :bowdown:

[TheButcherCrow]

Much of those details are lost in the mists of time and legend. No one can even say for certain if Brandon the Builder ever lived. He is as remote from the time of the novels as Noah and Gilgamesh are from our own time.

Funny he uses those two examples given that the story of Noah is a retelling of a story told to Gilgamesh by Utnapishtim in The Epic of Gilgamesh.

[Lord Ravenstark]

Magic itself is just the energy of the earth,the variations depends on how individuals use it. So for instance some may choose the elements as the anchor hence "elemental magic".Others may choose blood, thus "Blood magic".

To draw a real world comparison when performing elemental magic there are correspodents that go together and others that don't. Air and Fire are good and Earth and water are good. Creation was said to occur using Fire and Ice they are what is called "primodial Elements" and should not be used together........at all. GRRM has used Elemental magic in the form of innvoking "the quaters" so i don't see why he can't engage in the others.

I've longed held that "the cold" (coined term) is an entity and autonomous from the WWs,it is behind the longnight and what Craster is giving his babies too.The exposure of babies during this time was a desperate act that evolved into the ritual seen today.

This may help to shed light Ice magic is also called "chaos magic" because it uses the cold properties of Water. I don't think the WWs are doing any kissing if we look at the variations and distance apart of things dying and raisng.

If we look at Thistle and Toumond's son who died and was just Wighted. What's doing the Wighting is already in the environment... Its the Fog on the Sorrows and the White Cold in the North.It is what is doing the transformation and the Wighting...Not the WWs.This i think is a good question to ask.What is responsible if anything for the Fog on the Sorrows and the Fog/White cold North.It can't be the WWs that's above their pay grade.They are not on the Rhoyne,but the same unatural Fog is,as it is in the North.

http://www.westeros.org/ASoWS/News/Entry/World_of_Ice_and_Fire_Excerpt_The_Rhoynar

When we read this singular excerpt we see the use of magic as a effective (but not miraculous) way of offense AND defense.

And greyscale, a water magic curse. Maybe greyscale is akin to wight-fication but who cursed who?

[wolfmaid7]

http://www.westeros.org/ASoWS/News/Entry/World_of_Ice_and_Fire_Excerpt_The_Rhoynar

When we read this singular excerpt we see the use of magic as a effective (but not miraculous) way of offense AND defense.

And greyscale, a water magic curse. Maybe greyscale is akin to wight-fication but who cursed who?

That was an interesting read,i have a thread on the General Forum called "those who sing" we are looking at songs in a magical context.Both intuitive and worked.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/110263-those-who-sing/

This caught my eye from that excerpt: "And the Rhoynar themselves showed little interest in expansion; the river was their home, their mother, and their god, and few of them wished to dwell beyond the sound of her eternal song."It also reminds me of Bran when he was in the Crow speaking about "the Song of the river growing louder".

If the tales are true ,I think its possible that the Rhoyner used a "song" of water for defensive and offensive purposes.The greyscale could have been the consequences of using Water magic in such a way,especially if it killed a lot of people.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Random thoughts by Snowfyre:

1. Theon and Cersei - male and female versions of a particular stock character archetype. Discuss?

2. Kinship (thus kinslaying) - more generalizable than you thought. Discuss?

3. Theon as fertile ground for Azor Ahai (or whatever). Smoke and Salt ~ particularly descriptive and appropriate (in poetic / etymological ways) for the name "Reek." Discuss?

4. W. B. Yeats - as inspiration for GRRM. Discuss.

[TheButcherCrow]

Random thoughts by Snowfyre:

1. Theon and Cersei - male and female versions of a particular stock character archetype. Discuss?

2. Kinship (thus kinslaying) - more generalizable than you thought. Discuss?

3. Theon as fertile ground for Azor Ahai (or whatever). Smoke and Salt ~ particularly descriptive and appropriate (in poetic / etymological ways) for the name "Reek." Discuss?

4. W. B. Yeats - as inspiration for GRRM. Discuss.

1 - Not for me. I find Cersei & Theon to be extremely different characters although interestingly, the same root cause (abandonment) lies at the heart of both their pathologies however it manifests itself in markedly different ways. Theon pretends to be superior, Cersei is superior. Theon is a young man trying to make his father love him. Cersei on the other hand has become the superior person she no doubt once pretended to be.

2 - Not 100% certain what you mean by that. If you mean, has the writer demonstrated that the family you choose can be stronger than the one you are born to, then I would certainly agree.

3 - No, although the fact he may fit some of the parameters certainly says something interesting about the prophecy wouldn't you say?

4 - I assume you mean:

Turning and turning in the widening gyre

The falcon cannot hear the falconer

Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;

Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,

The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere

The ceremony of innocence is drowned.

The best lack all conviction, while the worst

Are full of passionate intensity

I think if you're a serious writer and you're not influenced, to some degree, by all the greats then you are most probably doing it wrong :)

[Melifeather]

The only thing I don't like about the "WW are created and controlled by the Singers" theory is that it doesn't explain why this unstoppable army was not used against the Andals. They were much more numerous and much more destructive than the FM, burning weirwood trees and forcing all the old races to go hide behind the Wall. Given that the WW were so very successful during the long night, why not use them again? The FM were losing the war, so I"m sure if the Singers had said "hey guys, we need some extra sacrifices this month and we'll take care of our common enemy, just stay out of the way and store up some extra food for a long winter" they probably would've gone for it.

The Singers used the Hammer of the Waters (unsuccessfully) during this war, which proves that there was plenty of magic available... and since the Wall was constructed by the Singers and/or the FM, surely they could have made an exception and opened some gates for their new winter army.

I love this! AWESOME THEORY. :bowdown:

One of my on going theories is that the Andals were there for the Long Night, and earlier for the Pact, and since then their maesters have been trying to write their way out of any responsibility so that they can claim they weren't there, but the Reed's creed/oath hints that they were there when they said they "swear by bronze and iron". Bronze representing the First Men and Iron representing the Andals. I also think that is the true meaning behind, "the North Remembers". They remember the Andals were there even though the Andals claim otherwise. Furthermore, if the Andals were there when the Pact was broken, it would explain why the Singers/Children fled beyond the Wall and why the Nights Watch seems to have more worshippers of the Seven than the Old Gods.

http://www.westeros.org/ASoWS/News/Entry/World_of_Ice_and_Fire_Excerpt_The_Rhoynar

When we read this singular excerpt we see the use of magic as a effective (but not miraculous) way of offense AND defense.

And greyscale, a water magic curse. Maybe greyscale is akin to wight-fication but who cursed who?

The Rhoynar cursed the dragonlords with greyscale, which in itself is a type of imprisonment trapping the dragonlords inside stone bodies. Wightification is a curse also, trapping the souls in the bones, and if you're looking to point a finger at anyone for the curse, look no further than the Singers/Children. They are the ones that called down their Hammer of Waters, just as Prince Garin of the Rhoynar called down their water curse. It's the combination of the water with fire and water with ice that caused the greyscale and wights, and both diseases or curse can be spread via touch or mist. In the north the cold mist and in the east the fog mist.

[ladyinblack]

Mothers smothering their children rather than seeing them starve, and old men going out "hunting" as a way of sacrificing themselves so they are no longer taking up valuable food - both seem to be ways of sacrificing living humans to the winter, ice, cold - much like Craster. Could explain the ability of whatever drove the Long Night to still be a force, even if there have been no WWs sighted for thousands of years.

But doesn't Ygritte mention that they are always there waiting

They appear out of nothing but snow when Bran & party are struggling to get to the COTF entrance to the cave.