in defense of theon greyjoy

[UnFit Finlay]

2. longing for his real family and the future where he would be the lord of pyke, when no one could disrespect him and he would simply be accepted and belong.

if theon would even have been able to go back to robb (which he wouldn't) he would never have a real place to belong, because he never belonged with the starks in the first place, he was always looking forward to going home and feel accepted. his own family is his only chance at ever belonging and no matter how bad they treat him, he's not just gonna let go of that (if he doesn't belive there's a chance they'll ever accept him, he'll lie to himself about it. because that's always been his way of coping) and there's also the fact that if he did go back to robb, his father would still have attacked and the north would have demanded robb to execute theon.

I don't think this can even be called a choice. I agree that he betrayed robb as a friend, but it's not as simple as that...

Agreed. It's also worth noting that, had Theon had betrayed his family and returned to Robb, he would've done so as a beggar, with no value even as a hostage. Yes, he's a competent soldier and his information about the Iron Born would be useful but then what? He'd have no land, title, men or wealth of his own and, while Robb would look kindly on him, even he wouldn't be blind enough to give Theon anything of worth over the various sons and grandsons of Houses with actual influence. Meanwhile, the Iron Born would curse the weakling who betrayed them to serve the people who killed his brothers while the Northmen would either hate him for being the son of their enemy or for being a turn cloak.

It simply isn't an option, especially for someone as proud as Theon was.

[INCBlackbird]

He didn't manipulate him, he came with him with a plan, Theon decided to do it. It was entirely Theon's move, it was he who led his men there and he that okayed Ramsay to do it, for him to keep face. He killed those kids as Tywin killed Elia.

“M’lord prince.” Reek urged his horse near. “Might be them Starks never came this way. If I was them, I would have gone north and east, maybe. To the Umbers. Good Stark men, they are. But their lands are a long way. The boys will shelter someplace nearer. Might be I know where.” Theon looked at him suspiciously. “Tell me.”

“You know that old mill, sitting lonely on the Acorn Water? We stopped there when I was being dragged to Winterfell a captive. The miller’s wife sold us hay for our horses while that old knight clucked over her brats. Might be the Starks are hiding there.” Theon knew the mill. He had even tumbled the miller’s wife a time or two. There was nothing special about it, or her. “Why there? There are a dozen villages and holdfasts just as close.” Amusement shone in those pale eyes. “Why? Now that’s past knowing. But they’re there, I have a feeling.” He was growing sick of the man’s sly answers. His lips look like two worms fucking. “What are you saying? If you’ve kept some knowledge from me-”

I call this textbook manipulation, making a person think it's their plan when it's actually yours.

there's also this :

“Stark’s little wolflings are dead,” said Ramsay, sloshing some more ale into his cup, “and they’ll stay dead. Let them show their ugly faces, and my girls will rip those wolves of theirs to pieces. The sooner they turn up, the sooner I kill them again.”

The elder Bolton sighed. “Again? Surely you misspeak. You never slew Lord Eddard’s sons, those two sweet boys we loved so well. That was Theon Turncloak’s work, remember? How many of our grudging friends do you imagine we’d retain if the truth were known?"

basically from the moment Theon and Ramsay "reek" Bolton met, he had the upperhand! Theon might have been in charge but he was a horrible leader from the start because he has no self confidense and acts like he thinks he''s supposed to act. he was basically radiating vulnearablity and Ramsay took this perfect oppertunity to get Theon to play exactly in his hand (partly to save himself, partly because it amused him and partly because he wanted theon for himself and if he got the north to hate him Ramsay would have the freedom to do with him, whatever he wanted)

[Wmarshal]

That isn't manipulation, Theon looked at the cloaks Ramsay had and filled in the blanks,it was his choice and decision to drag those boys out for Ramsay. How ? Roose is saying Theon killed them, for that is what the world believes and means his ass if anything else is said.

[David Selig]

I don't think it's impossible that GRRM might add something to a chapter to give context to even the smallest anecdote in another chapter. The books are so incredibly detailed and linked together, I don't think it's something that's completely outside the bounds of reason but I understand what you're saying.

And if we were to assume that Bran was too young to be beaten and Sansa/Arya weren't beaten because they are girls then it's still a bit odd that they were able to disobey orders and things like that without any punishment, not even a stern talking to, yet Theon gets a thrashing for an accident. Yes, he was reckless but Bran was also reckless for continuing to climb having been told to stop. Like I said, I get that Bran may have been too young for a beating but his punishment never went beyond a fond "Oh, Bran, what will we do with you?" kinda thing.

At the end of Arya's first chapter it's certainly implied that she was going to be punished for running away when she was supposed to be sewing and she dreaded it quite a bit.

[INCBlackbird]

That isn't manipulation, Theon looked at the cloaks Ramsay had and filled in the blanks,it was his choice and decision to drag those boys out for Ramsay. How ? Roose is saying Theon killed them, for that is what the world believes and means his ass if anything else is said.

of course it's manipulation. if this isn't manipulation what do you think manipulation is?

Roose tells Ramsay that he can't reveal the truth (that ramsay was actually the one to kill them), seems pretty clear to me. neither of them seem to think Theon was responsible...

[Wmarshal]

When your beaten, raised sense birth, or simple forced to do something, Ramsay wasn't dealing with Reek, but Theon.

Because Brandon isn't really dead.

[INCBlackbird]

When your beaten, raised sense birth, or simple forced to do something, Ramsay wasn't dealing with Reek, but Theon.

Because Brandon isn't really dead.

when you're beaten or forced to do something that is not manipulation, that is forcing someone to do something. when you're raised into something that can be manipulation yes but it's not nessacary. manipulation is to make a person do what you want without them knowing they're doing what you want. Ramsay wasn't dealing with Reek no, he was dealing with a very vulnearable Theon and know exactly how to make him play right into his head. theon mentions in adwd that "reek" was standing next to him "wispering in his ear", then there's the miller boys and there's "reek" telling theon he can get him extra forces, things were going wrong for Theon with half the north at the winterfell gate, so that was the perfect oppertunity for ramsay to go "I can get help" so he could get outside, get forces from the dreadfort and return to take winterfell (following his and probably his dad's plan) then he manipulated ser rodrik to trust him(the boltons were sworn to house stark so that was easy) and after dealing with him, manipulated theon into opening the gate. the whole thing was ramsay's sceme from the start. the moment theon invaded winterfell he saw the perfect oppertunity.

then why did he specifically say "that was theon turncloak remember?" he is not talking about the identities of the boys he's talking about who killed them.

[Wmarshal]

He was dealing with a Theon that wanted away to keep face. He wanted added and was desperate. Theon did because wanted to, because his thought's needed those boys faces off and aid. He is the one that went out and had Ramsay kill those kids.

Because that is the story of the North, Theon turncloak killed Bran and Rickon, not some miller's boys.

[JustAnObsessedFan]

Theon most definitely is the villain fans make him out to be. He's done evil things for power and self-glory - he's the definition of what it is to be a fool.

He's paying for it, & is realising how wrong/incapable he was at betraying Robb and trying to sustain power the way he did. Admitting he made the wrong choice doesn't redeem or correct his errors, it just makes it easier for us to feel sympathy towards him because he realised he should never have gone down the path he did. All the suffering he's endured has knocked some sense into him.

[INCBlackbird]

He was dealing with a Theon that wanted away to keep face. He wanted added and was desperate. Theon did because wanted to, because his thought's needed those boys faces off and aid. He is the one that went out and had Ramsay kill those kids.

Because that is the story of the North, Theon turncloak killed Bran and Rickon, not some miller's boys.

yes, theon was indeed desparate and vulnearable, he had no way out and ramsay made use of that to get what he wanted aka manipulation. Ramsay wanted those boys dead (though preferably the real ones but there was no chance of that anymore), I think it's pretty clear that roose and ramsay were already planning to take the north for a long time and theon played perfectly in their hand to do that.

yep, the story is that Theon Turncloak was the one who did it, not Ramsay. which is what Ramsay said and Roose corrects him because it's important that the north thinks ramsay wasn't involved, that it was all theon. how can you interpret that quote any other way ?

[INCBlackbird]

Theon most definitely is the villain fans make him out to be. He's done evil things for power and self-glory - he's the definition of what it is to be a fool.

He's paying for it, & is realising how wrong/incapable he was at betraying Robb and trying to sustain power the way he did. Admitting he made the wrong choice doesn't redeem or correct his errors, it just makes it easier for us to feel sympathy towards him because he realised he should never have gone down the path he did. All the suffering he's endured has knocked some sense into him.

if theon is a villain, 90% of the characters are villains.

also he didn't do it for power and self-glory. he did it beecause he wanted a place to belong and people who accepted him, and since the starks never did, his only oppertunity to get that was through his own family.

he is not a fool, he's just blinded by his emotions, which is what makes him make rash and dumb decisions.

[Wmarshal]

yes, theon was indeed desparate and vulnearable, he had no way out and ramsay made use of that to get what he wanted aka manipulation. Ramsay wanted those boys dead (though preferably the real ones but there was no chance of that anymore), I think it's pretty clear that roose and ramsay were already planning to take the north for a long time and theon played perfectly in their hand to do that.

yep, the story is that Theon Turncloak was the one who did it, not Ramsay. which is what Ramsay said and Roose corrects him because it's important that the north knows ramsay wasn't involved, that it was all theon. how can you interpret that quote any other way ?

He had away out, not to do it. It was his prided he wanted to save, and that is no excuse for anything. As did Theon, else never would happen. No they weren't, Roose told Theon it was what he did that pushed his him.

Because no matter if Ramsay pushed him or not Roose claim needed that story to stick.

[INCBlackbird]

He had away out, not to do it. It was his prided he wanted to save, and that is no excuse for anything. As did Theon, else never would happen. No they weren't, Roose told Theon it was what he did that pushed his him.

Because no matter if Ramsay pushed him or not Roose claim needed that story to stick.

if he didn't do it he would most likely end up getting killed. it had nothing to do with pride, it was about trying to maintain the respect (and therefor loyalty) of his men, and controlling the people of winterfell. Theon has no idea what to do because if he loses those things he is lost and ramsay comes and goes "you can fake their deaths to show them you mean it and everyone will show respect to you because respect is earned through fear" and theon believed him... it's what he'd been taught by his father as well and he was doing his best to behave like an iron born.

which suggests that Roose wanted to take over for a long time, he was just waiting for the right oppertunity because you can't just strike against the starks (especially when the north is united behind them) Theon gave him the perfect oppertunity, partly by invading but mostly because his son was there and managed to get theon to do something the north would hate him for (killing "bran" and "rickon"), and because he was able to burn down winterfell and blame it all on Theon, no one even had to know the boltons were rebelling at all!

that's the point, Ramsay and Roose clearly don't think it was Theon, but the north needs to believe it was.

[Wmarshal]

if he didn't do it he would most likely end up getting killed. it had nothing to do with pride, it was about trying to maintain the respect (and therefor loyalty) of his men, and controlling the people of winterfell. Theon has no idea what to do because if he loses those things he is lost and ramsay comes and goes "you can fake their deaths to show them you mean it and everyone will show respect to you because respect is earned through fear" and theon believed him... it's what he'd been taught by his father as well and he was doing his best to behave like an iron born.

which suggests that Roose wanted to take over for a long time, he was just waiting for the right oppertunity because you can't just strike against the starks (especially when the north is united behind them) Theon gave him the perfect oppertunity, partly by invading but mostly because his son was there and managed to get theon to do something the north would hate him for (killing "bran" and "rickon"), and because he was able to burn down winterfell and blame it all on Theon, no one even had to know the boltons were rebelling at all!

that's the point, Ramsay and Roose clearly don't think it was Theon, but the north needs to believe it was.

By who? Asha made it clear that was pointless.

Because Bran isn't really dead, that is the real point, the lie Bran and Rickon is dead is important here.

[Leonardo]

If you can't defend Theon then can you defend the following:

Robb - His lust cost him the Frey alliance and the war

Catelyn - abduction of Tyrion escalated all of the events

Sansa - her telling Cersei of Neds plans to leave directly led to his death

Jaime - Bran, enough said

Stannis - Renly, shadow babies

Davos - betrayed his King by getting Edric Storm to safety

Jon - betreayed his vows to the NW, then betrayed Ygritte, then again betrays NW

Basically all are flawed and have issues

I can defend Davos he did what he did because of his own belief in Stanis' justness. It was wrong and unjust to kill an innocent child and he knew that would go against everything he believed of Stannis. It might have been stupid but in the end it will redeem Stannis. Without Davos Mel would ruin Stannis.

Umm none of those people have murdered children just to save themselves from embarassment

And no Inc, Theon's embarassment wouldn't have dire consequences, he just wouldn't get respect from his POS family and someone else would succeed Balon instead of Theon as King of the Iron Isles. He'd still live a comfortable life as one of the most powerful lords on the isles

[Lord Reaver]

The person to blame is Balon. His son returns home, and is treated with suspicion and disrespect. Balon chooses to unleash some idiotic scheme, basically out of misguided spite, and forces his son to take part in it or be branded a weakling and turncloak.

Victim blaming, much ? Ned Stark was the one who abducted Theon, thus putting him in this position.

Blame him, if you need to blame anyone.

[INCBlackbird]

By who? Asha made it clear that was pointless.

Because Bran isn't really dead, that is the real point, the lie Bran and Rickon is dead is important here.

yeah she made it clear after it happened. theon wasn't exactly doing a good job trying to be an iron islander (the stark culture had seeped into him). it's not because asha made it clear afterwards that theon could have known that before.

if he had been talking about bran and rickon he would have said something along the lines of "but they are already dead" but now he specificially says "that's theon turncloaks work" which means he's talking about who did it rather then the identities of the kids.

[INCBlackbird]

Umm none of those people have murdered children just to save themselves from embarassment

Neither did theon...

[Lord Reaver]

The whole point of being a ward is that you are raised with other noble children as though as you were brothers. If you read the Bran chapters in ACoK you see that the Freys are tutored with Bran and Rickon and Meera even refers to them as foster brothers to Bran. There is no reason whatsoever to think that these punishments were exlusive to Theon since the whole idea of being a ward is being raised as a brother to the other children (him being a hostage is a reason for a certain distance, but not for neglecting this task).

Theon isn't a ward like the Freys or Reeds are, though. He's a hostage, and we know from his chapters that he isn't treated the same as the rest of the kids, let alone like a brother.

So yes, there is clearly reason to assume he was treated differently (i.e. beaten when they were not).

Aside from that, we have clear examples of the other kids doing things far worse than running down stairs (Arya running away, for instance) without getting corporal punishment for it.

[Wmarshal]

yeah she made it clear after it happened. theon wasn't exactly doing a good job trying to be an iron islander (the stark culture had seeped into him). it's not because asha made it clear afterwards that theon could have known that before.

if he had been talking about bran and rickon he would have said something along the lines of "but they are already dead" but now he specificially says "that's theon turncloaks work" which means he's talking about who did it rather then the identities of the kids.

His life was never in danger, nor any of his thoughts point to him thinking that.

No one in the North knows some miiler's boys are dead, no one, just Bran and Rickon.