The Trial of Joy

[pobeb]

I'm not sure you understood my question.

Where does anything you provided indicate he's going to let her fight with fewer people than required? Trial by seven makes sense... and the text precedent indicates that she default loses because she doesn't have seven kingsguard available. This is the logical conclusion ... yet you provide an alternative of seven v three. Why? If anything, allowing the remote chance that she can win with only three (something is expect) works against his character motivations. Why would he choose to allow a fight? Occam's Razor and all that.

... beyond that it's your thread title...

So, just to be clear, you're asking "Why, if Howland is going to alter the rules, would he even enforce a trial to begin with?"

Well, because it's part of the act. He's forced to grant her a trial, just as she's forced to accept his terms. It was the same situation with Rickard and Aerys where, despite the hopeless conditions, a trial was still given. And it definitely looks better in the eyes of the common people. Remember, he certainly doing radical things (like storming the vote with axes), but it isn't exactly common knowledge.

If Cercei needs new Kingsguards for her trial, then so may Marge. Could Willas Tyrell, one of the best swordsmen in the 7K, get a white cloak? Could Cercei be forced to pack the Kingsguard with all Knights from the Reach?

Well, Margery is intending to request a Trial of Faith, so I'm not sure if she would need seven to stand for her - most likely she'll just be judged by seven.

[pobeb]

And to anyone who needs precedent for modifying the rules at a whim:

Lord Rickard demanded trial by combat, and the king granted the request. Stark armored himself as for battle, thinking to duel one of the Kingsguard. Me, perhaps. Instead they took him to the throne room and suspended him from the rafters while two of Aerys’s pyromancers kindled a blaze beneath him. The king told him that fire was the champion of House Targaryen.

Aerys doesn't even use an actual person. If that isn't precedent for the accuser to do as he pleases, than I guess I can't see what would be. :dunno:

My inclination, based on everything we know, is to think the trial will go something like this:

Cersei: I demand a trial by combat!

High Septon: Ok, you may have a trial by seven.

Cersei: Wait, what? But there are only three Kingsguard available!

High Septon: :cool4:

Cersei: :crying:

[Woofless]

I like this. I like it a lot!

[pobeb]

I like this. I like it a lot!

Thanks!

I like your avatar a lot. Would be cool if you photoshopped in some red eyes!

[LordStoneheart]

Aerys doesn't even use an actual person. If that isn't precedent for the accuser to do as he pleases, than I guess I can't see what would be. :dunno:

Isn't it an easier explanation to say that Aerys was dragonshit crazy and did what he wanted? I don't think this example really means the accuser can do as he pleases. It seems the exception, not the rule.

[SerHaHa]

Nice job pobeb, even if your theory turns out to not be 100% correct, I do believe that elements of what you're put forward are very possible so far as the remaining 2 books. Very interesting, it's incredible what you can forget about or miss, even having read the books several times over.

[pobeb]

Isn't it an easier explanation to say that Aerys was dragonshit crazy and did what he wanted? I don't think this example really means the accuser can do as he pleases. It seems the exception, not the rule.

Objectively, it's a scenario where an accuser modified the terms of the trial to serve their best interest - just as Aerion had done.

That is the precedent I hold towards the possibility of the High Septon repeating the same scenario.

[pobeb]

Nice job pobeb, even if your theory turns out to not be 100% correct, I do believe that elements of what you're put forward are very possible so far as the remaining 2 books. Very interesting, it's incredible what you can forget about or miss, even having read the books several times over.

Glad you liked it.

When I explain who Cersei's Judges will be, things will eerily start to fall into place. i.e. the plot-serving purpose of the Sand Snakes in King's Landing in relation to Gregor's existence.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Yea, or like Aerys chosing fire as his champion against Rickard, and roasting him over a pit.

Aerys had complete power in KL.

The High Sparrow does not. His situation is tenuous at best.

It's not the same situation. Rickard wanted a combat, Aerys chose his champion: fire. Also, as USD said, he had complete power in KL. And he didn't change the accused's choice, he chose a very unusual champion, but it's not that far-fetched if we imagine a situation in which a Stark King says he chooses his direwolf as a champion.

I admit I'm not quite sure of how this thing work (it's not something that really interests me in ASOIAF) but here we're talking about a change made by the main authority, which isn't as simple as we might think.

For instance, during Tyrion's both trials, the main authority was the person in charge: Lysa, as Lady of the Vale and Tywin, as Hand of the King; both representing the King's authority. They both had to agree to Tyrion choosing a trial by combat and Tywin even had to accept it when Tyrion decided to change his regular trial by a trial by combat after Shae's testimony. Both Tywin and Lysa wanted and needed Tyrion dead, they could have refused but it's the accused person's right. If any of them had suddenly changed the conditions, then they both, and what they both represented would have seen as weak, as Tyrion himself reminded Lysa when he asked if that's how the Vale dealt with Justice.

In this new trial, Cersei is the one accused and it's the Faith the one in charge. Cersei is allowed require a normal trial, a trial by combat or a trial by seven if she likes, but the Faith can't change her decision because then, they would look desperate: the Faith -either honest or simply wanting to get ridden of Cersei- needs to look like they are sure of their case and having the Gods on their side, specially because they know Cersei is guilty. Changing the conditions of the Trial would made THEM look wrong, and made people think they need special help to accuse her because she's innocent.

[TheonGreyjoy]

Brilliant theory, such a pleasure to read. Well supported, you did your homework really good OP. Applaus

[The Green Griffin]

Very well done!

[pobeb]

It's not the same situation.

I admit I'm not quite sure of how this thing work...

You need to look at things more objectively.

Objectively, each scenario has the accused calling for a trial by combat, only to have the accuser modify the terms of the trial to fit their best interest. That is the criteria in which we draw the parallels:

The accused (Dunk) calls for a trial by combat, and the accuser (Aerion) modifies the terms of the trial (changes Dunk's trial by combat to a trial by seven) to serve his best interest (since a 1v1 would be a slam Dunk ;) )

The accused (Rickard) calls for a trial by combat, and the accuser (Aerys) modifies the terms of the trial (chooses a non-human champion) to serve his best interest (to kill the traitorous Starks)

The accused (Tyrion) calls for a trial by combat, and the accuser (Lysa) modifies the terms of the trial (Tyrion must choose from the court available, and is denied Jaime) to serve her best interest (make the bad man fly)

So, as you can clearly see, there is precedent for an established pattern. You don't have to agree that Cersei's trail will go this way, there's obviously multiple outcomes to this plot-line, but I don't think you can deny that, objectively, there is evidence for a suggestive pattern. *added to OP for clarity*

Interestingly, like Rickard, Sandor is also tried against an in-human champion. Though, unlike Rickard, Sandor is victorious in his trial. This establishes a parallel which foreshadows Sandor defeating another in-human champion (Robert the Strong) during a trial by combat (Trial of Joy)

Brilliant theory, such a pleasure to read. Well supported, you did your homework really good OP. Applaus

Very well done!

Thank you!!! :D

[pobeb]

If all members of the Kingsguard were available and healthy at some point

Interestingly, some of these characters are directly tied to an earlier tilt - The Hands Tourney:

In the end it came down to four; the Hound and his monstrous brother Gregor, Jaime Lannister the Kingslayer, and Ser Loras Tyrell, the youth they called the Knight of Flowers.

Possible foreshadowing that the ensuing trial goes sour for the Judges, and these are the final warriors, pit in a 3 v 1.

[forestchilde]

Aerys had complete power in KL.

The High Sparrow does not. His situation is tenuous at best.

He might not have complete power, but he's got a helluva lot.

Consider: ADWD, Jamie 1

Jamie is thinking of returning to KL, and confronting Cersei. "He would have to face her, he supposed. Assuming the High Septon had not put her to death by the time he got back to the city."

The Captain of the KG thinks he has power.

In the Epilogue of ADWD, Kevan POV:

"Lord Randyll snorted. 'What have we become, when kings and high lords must dance to the twittering of sparrows?' "

" 'We have foes on every hand, Lord Tarly,' Ser Kevan reminded him. 'Stannis in the north, ironmen in the west, sellswords in the south. Defy the High Septon, and we will have blood running in the gutters of King's Landing as well. If we are seen to be going against the gods, it will only drive the pious into the arms of one or the other of these would-be usurpers.' "

So the king's regent thinks....er....thought he has power, too.

Great job, Pobeb! Well worth the wait, with even more to come, I hope. :cool4:

[forestchilde]

You need to look at things more objectively.

Objectively, each scenario has the accused calling for a trial by combat, only to have the accuser modify the terms of the trial to fit their best interest. That is the criteria in which we draw the parallels:

The accused (Dunk) calls for a trial by combat, and the accuser (Aerion) modifies the terms of the trial (changes Dunk's trial by combat to a trial by seven) to serve his best interest (since a 1v1 would be a slam Dunk ;) )

The accused (Rickard) calls for a trial by combat, and the accuser (Aerys) modifies the terms of the trial (chooses a non-human champion) to serve his best interest (to kill the traitorous Starks)

The accused (Tyrion) calls for a trial by combat, and the accuser (Lysa) modifies the terms of the trial (Tyrion must choose from the court available, and is denied Jaime) to serve her best interest (make the bad man fly)

So, as you can clearly see, there is precedent for an established pattern. You don't have to agree that Cersei's trail will go this way, there's obviously multiple outcomes to this plot-line, but I don't think you can deny that, objectively, there is evidence for a suggestive pattern. *added to OP for clarity*

Interestingly, like Rickard, Sandor is also tried against an in-human champion. Though, unlike Rickard, Sandor is victorious in his trial. This establishes a parallel which foreshadows Sandor defeating another in-human champion (Robert the Strong) during a trial by combat (Trial of Joy)

Thank you!!! :D

You could also add: The accused, Sandor Clegane, calls for sword and armor, but the accuser, Beric Dondarrion replies "Your sword you shall have, but your innocence must be your armor,"

[Universal Sword Donor]

He might not have complete power, but he's got a helluva lot.

Consider: ADWD, Jamie 1

Jamie is thinking of returning to KL, and confronting Cersei. "He would have to face her, he supposed. Assuming the High Septon had not put her to death by the time he got back to the city."

The Captain of the KG thinks he has power.

In the Epilogue of ADWD, Kevan POV:

"Lord Randyll snorted. 'What have we become, when kings and high lords must dance to the twittering of sparrows?' "

" 'We have foes on every hand, Lord Tarly,' Ser Kevan reminded him. 'Stannis in the north, ironmen in the west, sellswords in the south. Defy the High Septon, and we will have blood running in the gutters of King's Landing as well. If we are seen to be going against the gods, it will only drive the pious into the arms of one or the other of these would-be usurpers.' "

So the king's regent thinks....er....thought he has power, too.

Great job, Pobeb! Well worth the wait, with even more to come, I hope. :cool4:

Absolute power is obviously a bit much, but when you can more or less burn an important ally to death with impunity and no justification I'd say you're sitting pretty.

Also Kevan is a prudent man in a weak position. The lannister troops either went home or to Dstone. They are effectively gone and he's surrounded with Tyrell bannermen. There's a reason why Tarly is acting like a swinging dick. He and Mace both have Tyrell armies, probably around 20K men, near the capital. The Sparrow turned over Margaery for a reason. He's outgunned by a *long* shot.

[pobeb]

The Sparrow turned over Margaery for a reason. He's outgunned by a *long* shot.

Except, he didn't just turn her over.

He forced Randyll to swear a holy oath.

This is what Margery's release was contingent upon, lest you forgot.

forestchilde even highlighted it for you:

Lord Randyll snorted. 'What have we become, when kings and high lords must dance to the twittering of sparrows?'

Randyll has acknowledged that he's bending to the High Septon's will. Why are you denying this? It's pretty clear.

[pobeb]

You could also add: The accused, Sandor Clegane, calls for sword and armor, but the accuser, Beric Dondarrion replies "Your sword you shall have, but your innocence must be your armor,"

Nice!!!

[Universal Sword Donor]

Except, he didn't just turn her over.

He forced Randyll to swear a holy oath.

This is what Margery's release was contingent upon, lest you forgot.

Yes I trust a holy oath from someone who douses hookers' privates with lye as much as I trust someone who would douse hooker's private parts with lye.

In case you're wondering, that is zero. Someone who threatens to kill his son because he doesn't want him to succeed him is not really someone who gives a shit about holy vows. You know, the whole kinslaying taboo. Either he knows something we don't or he thinks it's bullshit.

[lyannaisalive]

1.