Modesty Lannister Posted September 17, 2014 Share Posted September 17, 2014 I'm surprised nobody mentions the resurgence of magic, when Dany's dragons hatched, as the cause of Thoros's "powers". Remember what Quaithe says after Dany watches the firemage in Qarth. From Clash 40 : It fits with Thoros totally not expecting his "kiss of life" to work the first time he resurrected Beric. But does the Battle at the Mummer's Ford happen after the dragons hatch ? The Battle is first mentioned in Game 55.The dragons hatch the night the comet appears first in the night sky in Lhazar. That's in the last chapter of Game. But the comet is first mentioned in Game 66, Bran VII, when Maester Luwin observes it the morning of the day Winterfell hears of Ned's death. So Dany's storyline in Essos isn't synchronized with the stories in Westeros. Luwin's previous appearance before Bran VII is Bran VI, Game 53. So if the first sighting of the comet in Westeros was placed soon after Game 53 and before Game 55, the first resurrection of Beric could be one of the first signs of the resurgence of magic.That's a given, but the question here is by whom was Beric resurrected. I believe it was CotF magic that coincided with Thoros' kiss. Others believe it is Thoros' suddenly gained Red magic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Wedding Cake Posted September 17, 2014 Share Posted September 17, 2014 Gratitude to Lost MeInibonean and Modesty Lannister for their inputs here. I believe Jaime's weirwood dream does show his death. I would like to bring up two crackpots. The first is Oathkeeper as Lightbringer. The several names of the sword would mirror the several times Lightbringer was tempered in the creation story. The original sword Ice, as it was passed on through the Starks, ultimately beheading Lord Eddard Stark and as the original Lightbringer was tempered in ice water. Then the sword was tempered by a lion. This could be Oathkeeper as it was reforged by Tywin Lannister, or, as the original Lightbringer was tempered by stabbing the heart of a lion, Oathkeeper could be plunged through Jaime Lannister's heart. The last step would be to temper the blade in Nissa, and with Lady Stoneheart's breath of Rh'ollor she is sacrificed to bring about Lightbringer from what was originally her husband's sword. I also like the idea of Jaime Lannister being killed and raised multiple times by Lady Stoneheart until Jaime serves as her undead thrull to strangle Cersei, thus Jaime's debt may be paid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mychel_Redfort Posted September 17, 2014 Share Posted September 17, 2014 That's a given, but the question here is by whom was Beric resurrected. I believe it was CotF magic that coincided with Thoros' kiss. Others believe it is Thoros' suddenly gained Red magic. And I tried to suggest that "Thoros' suddenly gained Red magic" could be a consequence of the resurgence of magic after the hatching of the dragons, and so it would be "Red magic" indeed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted September 18, 2014 Author Share Posted September 18, 2014 Part II...Then BR, who sided with the red dragon against the brother he loved, sent Jaime's fallen KG brothers to hammer home Jaime's crime when he betrayed Aerys, notwithstanding Jaime's defense that Aerys planned to burn KL. Rhaegar reminded him that he left his wife and children in Jaime's hands. BR seems to be preparing Jaime to raise up Jon, Rhaegar's heir, as king. But perhaps Jaime will believe Aegon's claim? ... The Warrior stands before the foe,protecting us where e'er we go.With sword and shield and spear and bow,he guards the little children. Samwell II, StormWhy would Cersei need the Warrior? She has me. Jaime II, Feast Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Mother of The Others Posted September 18, 2014 Share Posted September 18, 2014 here's some tasty BS regarding how the dragons function in the magical landscape:the dragons are like steadily burning magic bonfires, conductors and broadcasters of magic energies through the ether.Like nuclear power plants, their presence lights up the rest of the region with a reliable flow of available magical energies, like it's already been turned into the convenient electrical current which small-time magic users can then access more easily and consistently, like when you plug in lamps into the wall sockets in your home and get the results you want, because the local transformer station (the dragon) has already done its job.then occasionally the dragon blows up in magnificent fashion. uh, the Children or Bloodraven may not have had such a vested interest in keeping Robert on the throne that they'd perform a resurrection miracle as a show of divine support for the King's Men of Robert Baratheon. What would their motive be for sticking themselves out for the Baratheons like that? To Raven king Robert was still a usurper probably in his eyes. And though Thoros didn't have any background in casting true magic, what he did have going for him was true heartfelt belief in his cause..... his most poignant wish was to not fail Robert and to change the world so that the King's Men wouldn't fade away with the death of Dondarrion. That kiss of grief was like him marshalling his willpower for the casting of spell he didn't know he was casting, but the true magic swirling in the air did seize upon his wish and emowered it, responding to his will of its own accord, maybe because it was without purpose and had just been aimless in its returned presence until that moment. Thoros and Daenerys are like the first wave of magic rediscoverers. They don't know the rituals because those are lost to history, but they're using their instincts to blaze a trail into magic use so that future generations will once again have a plethora of new rituals and formulas, because those will be built around the powers explored for them by this first wave of intrepid magic-finders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted October 16, 2014 Author Share Posted October 16, 2014 If Jaime does end up backing Rhaegar's presumed son Aegon, and if Barristan survives Meereen and makes it back to the Seven Kingdoms with Daenerys, that would set up a great confrontation during the dance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roxy Carmichael Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 I don't think the old gods are real. I think weirwoods are inherently magical but I believe the old gods are just greenseers tapped into the weirnet. So Thoros/Beric's powers MIGHT come from weirwoods, or they might not. Maybe the Essosi red priests get their powers from the trees that you can make Shade of the Evening from, or maybe they don't. I think it's Martin's intention to leave magic as a mysterious force, so we will never really know what gods people get their powers from or even if they get their powers from gods at all. This. The "old gods" are just a bunch of peeping toms sitting around in a cave way up north, the greenseers... well, at this point there is only one left. When they die they are absorbed into the weirwoods. Clearly there is magic in Martin's world, but there really isn't any evidence of gods of any kind. People just seem to assign the magic to the workings of their deity of choice. For the COTF, the "gods" were the magic trees that they could use to communicate through, and view the past and present. I thought it was pretty much spelled out in the books. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blazfemur Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 This. The "old gods" are just a bunch of peeping toms sitting around in a cave way up north, the greenseers... well, at this point there is only one left. When they die they are absorbed into the weirwoods. Clearly there is magic in Martin's world, but there really isn't any evidence of gods of any kind. People just seem to assign the magic to the workings of their deity of choice. For the COTF, the "gods" were the magic trees that they could use to communicate through, and view the past and present. I thought it was pretty much spelled out in the books. no gods, agreed. however, i think the power lies in the blood. specifically, first men blood, when it comes to anything of the "old gods." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roose on the Loose Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 What I've noticed is that Mel is one kind of red priest and Thoros is another. Mel burns every weirwood she gets close to, but Thoros never harms the weirwoods at High Hart or Hollow Hill. I don't think Mel would have done trade with the ghost of High Heart like Thoros. Mel would have been loath to concede any other supernatural forces than her one red god. So Beric might be channeling the old magic. At least he's open to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roose on the Loose Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 here's some tasty BS regarding how the dragons function in the magical landscape: the dragons are like steadily burning magic bonfires, conductors and broadcasters of magic energies through the ether. Like nuclear power plants, their presence lights up the rest of the region with a reliable flow of available magical energies, like it's already been turned into the convenient electrical current which small-time magic users can then access more easily and consistently, like when you plug in lamps into the wall sockets in your home and get the results you want, because the local transformer station (the dragon) has already done its job. then occasionally the dragon blows up in magnificent fashion. uh, the Children or Bloodraven may not have had such a vested interest in keeping Robert on the throne that they'd perform a resurrection miracle as a show of divine support for the King's Men of Robert Baratheon. What would their motive be for sticking themselves out for the Baratheons like that? To Raven king Robert was still a usurper probably in his eyes. And though Thoros didn't have any background in casting true magic, what he did have going for him was true heartfelt belief in his cause..... his most poignant wish was to not fail Robert and to change the world so that the King's Men wouldn't fade away with the death of Dondarrion. That kiss of grief was like him marshalling his willpower for the casting of spell he didn't know he was casting, but the true magic swirling in the air did seize upon his wish and emowered it, responding to his will of its own accord, maybe because it was without purpose and had just been aimless in its returned presence until that moment. Thoros and Daenerys are like the first wave of magic rediscoverers. They don't know the rituals because those are lost to history, but they're using their instincts to blaze a trail into magic use so that future generations will once again have a plethora of new rituals and formulas, because those will be built around the powers explored for them by this first wave of intrepid magic-finders. I think the BWB refer to themselves as King Robert's men because a dead king can't give you orders, and they're not of a mind to follow any. They're not working to put Stannis or Renly on the IT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blazfemur Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 What I've noticed is that Mel is one kind of red priest and Thoros is another. Mel burns every weirwood she gets close to, but Thoros never harms the weirwoods at High Hart or Hollow Hill. I don't think Mel would have done trade with the ghost of High Heart like Thoros. Mel would have been loath to concede any other supernatural forces than her one red god. So Beric might be channeling the old magic. At least he's open to it. whats interesting, is that thoros is of Rh'llor, and I always assume, that The Ghost was of the old gods. Thats two different faiths getting along and kinda working together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blazfemur Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 Now we assume, that Coldhands is existent based on Other magic or Old God magic, however, he's intelligible, and he's not an Other (no blue eyes). By default, he appears to be the same magic keeping Catelyn moving. Could Coldhands be Rh'llorian-based? Furthermore, Thoros was the only one capable of doing this, could Coldhands have been in the company of Thoros at one point and then moved north on his own? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aDanceWithFlagons Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 Thoros was not able to see visions in the fires around High Heart where the GHH said that the Old Gods were still strong. So, they do have power.Exactly. I have brought this point to light in other threads, but people dismiss it. Mostly it is the discussion of all magic is the same. If so then Thoros should be able to read the flames while around High Heart. Obviously, one power, or maaagic, can overcome another. More to the OP. Thoros seemed surprised that Cat rose from the dead, yet He brought Beric back to life many times. :dunno: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted October 17, 2014 Author Share Posted October 17, 2014 Exactly. I have brought this point to light in other threads, but people dismiss it. Mostly it is the discussion of all magic is the same. If so then Thoros should be able to read the flames while around High Heart. Obviously, one power, or maaagic, can overcome another. More to the OP. Thoros seemed surprised that Cat rose from the dead, yet He brought Beric back to life many times. :dunno:Wasn't his surprise because ahe had been dead a few days? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted November 7, 2014 Author Share Posted November 7, 2014 After reading this for the umpteenth time I am thinking Melisandre is being guided by Bloodraven...Melisandre laughed. "It is his silences you should fear, not his words." As they stepped out into the yard, the wind filled Jon's cloak and sent it flapping against her. The red priestess brushed the black wool aside and slipped her arm through his. "It may be that you are not wrong about the wildling king. I shall pray for the Lord of Light to send me guidance. When I gaze into the flames, I can see through stone and earth, and find the truth within men's souls. I can speak to kings long dead and children not yet born, and watch the years and seasons flicker past, until the end of days.""Are your fires never wrong?""Never though we priests are mortal and sometimes err, mistaking this must come for this may come. "Jon could feel her heat, even through his wool and boiled leather. The sight of them arm in arm was drawing curious looks. They will be whispering in the barracks tonight. "If you can truly see the morrow in your flames, tell me when and where the next wildling attack will come." He slipped his arm free."R'hllor sends us what visions he will, but I shall seek for this man Tormund in the flames." Melisandre's red lips curled into a smile. "I have seen you in my fires, Jon Snow.""Is that a threat, my lady? Do you mean to burn me too?""You mistake my meaning." She gave him a searching look. "I fear that I make you uneasy, Lord Snow."Jon did not deny it. "The Wall is no place for a woman.""You are wrong. I have dreamed of your Wall, Jon Snow. Great was the lore that raised it, and great the spells locked beneath its ice. We walk beneath one of the hinges of the world." Melisandre gazed up at it, her breath a warm moist cloud in the air. "This is my place as it is yours, and soon enough you may have grave need of me. Do not refuse my friendship, Jon. I have seen you in the storm, hard-pressed, with enemies on every side. You have so many enemies. Shall I tell you their names?""I know their names.""Do not be so certain." The ruby at Melisandre's throat gleamed red. "It is not the foes who curse you to your face that you must fear, but those who smile when you are looking and sharpen their knives when you turn your back. You would do well to keep your wolf close beside you. Ice, I see, and daggers in the dark. Blood frozen red and hard, and naked steel. It was very cold.""It is always cold on the Wall.""You think so?""I know so, my lady.""Then you know nothing, Jon Snow," she whispered. Jon I, Dance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted January 8, 2015 Author Share Posted January 8, 2015 Part IIPerhaps Jaime will be next...After leaving HH but before returning to rescue Brienne he had a dream. We know this was inspired by BR since Jaime rested his head on a weirwood stump. He is forced down into a cave by hooded figures brandishing spears. Is this a foreshadowing of Jaime's coming encounter with Catelyn? As I argued above, I believe the voodoo behind Beric and Catelyn is inspired by Bloodraven not R'hllor. He is shoved into a pit with Brienne, who fears a bear. This seems to be an obvious foreshadowing of Jaime's rescuing the maiden later in the chapter. Tywin, Cersei, and Joffrey then appear. This predates the Red Wedding so Tywin and Joffrey are still alive at this point, but he and Joffrey will soon die, suffering deaths for which Jaime must later feel some blame. He released Tyrion, who killed Tywin, and he was the Lord Commander of Joffrey's KG but unable to protect him. And of course Jaime is the leading candidate to be Cersei's valonqar. The trio departs but not before Tywin gives Jaime a sword. Keep in mind that the sword Tywin actually gives to Jaime is one of two from Ice and Jaime gives his sword, in turn, to Brienne. In the dream Brienne gets a sword like Jaime's and they both burn--silvery blue, like ice, real ice, not the sword of course, but the allusion is there. The fact that both swords are flaming in a dream inspired by BR, who I believe is the power behind Beric and Catelyn, is why I think Jaime will succeed Catelyn who succeeded Beric.Here's the way Brienne recalls Jaime at Harrenhal... Brienne II, FeastThen BR, who sided with the red dragon against the brother he loved, sent Jaime's fallen KG brothers to hammer home Jaime's crime when he betrayed Aerys, notwithstanding Jaime's defense that Aerys planned to burn KL. Rhaegar reminded him that he left his wife and children in Jaime's hands. BR seems to be preparing Jaime to raise up Jon, Rhaegar's heir, as king. Jaime I, FeastJaime identifies with the Warrior... Jaime II, FeastAnd the Warrior protects children... Samwell II, StormJaime wants to make good on his failed duty to protect Rhaegar's children...Jaime I, DanceJaime doesn't believe that Rhaegar has any living children. But the George strongly hinted that Jamie will be a kingmaker... Jaime II, FeastBut perhaps Jaime will believe Aegon's claim? Here is a telling quote from Barristan on his path to redemption after taking Robert's pardon...Daenerys II, DanceAnd here's Jaime telling Lancel what he thought of Robert... Jaime IV, Feast Jaime IV, FeastBlack on Red, like the Blackfyre dragon...Assuming Jaime is Cersei's valonqar, this quote would tie in nicely with Jaime unwittingly supporting the black dragon... Cersei II, FeastThen we get this moment in Baelor's Sept (keep in mind that Bloodraven is associated with mist)... Jaime I, FeastAs a mist forms about Tywin's corpse, a man so intimately associated with the deaths of Rhaegar's children, Jaime wants to gag on a sweet rotten stench, which is followed shortly by this gem... Jaime I, FeastOn the road with Illyrio, Tyrion describes a dream... Tyrion II, DanceSo if I'm right and Jaime, perhaps unJaime inspired in part by BR, supports Aegon, believing him to be Rhaegar's son, against Daenerys, Tyrion's dream could very well foreshadow the Kingslayer's fate. And note that Brienne's sword continues to burn after Jaime's. Perhaps she will succeed Jaime? Brienne IV, FeastFinally, note that Jaime observes that Brienne could be a "beauty" in a certain light. Perhaps more beautiful than Cersei?The biggest problem of course with Jaime backing Aegon is whether Aegon would take him..."Duck will die for me if need be," he had said, "and that's all I require in my Kingsguard. The Kingslayer was a warrior of great renown, and the son of a great lord as well." The Griffin Reborn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted June 8, 2015 Author Share Posted June 8, 2015 In Catelyn VI, Game 34, the George makes a big deal out of a white mule taking Catelyn from Snow to Sky and liking her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oursisthefury69 Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 It very well might be Jaime next, that was the only part worth putting to my mind. I dont at all understand your conclusion from the first page of "Beric's helping Starks so can't be Rhllor/Not the Old Gods" You even quoted Beric waking up with the taste of fire and ash Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robb_Warged Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 I WANT ROBB TO BE NEXT BRING BACK ROBB!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted June 8, 2015 Author Share Posted June 8, 2015 I WANT ROBB TO BE NEXT BRING BACK ROBB!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!At this point unRobb would be pretty gross. And funny looking with a direwolf head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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