Confirmed, HBO show will spoil the ending of series

[TheWhiteRabbit]

Of course not. People will automatically assume that D&D can't handle it without Martin's input and will place the blame on them.

Basically, they are damned if they do, damned if they don't.

You're probably right. Here's my theory. I believe the quality of the final seasons could depend on how collaborative Martin's and D&D's relationship is. Will Martin continue to show them everything or will he become more protective of his story, his crowning achievement, now that he knows the show will finish first?

[sj4iy]

You're probably right. Here's my theory. I believe the quality of the final seasons could depend on how collaborative Martin's and D&D's relationship is. Will Martin continue to show them everything or will he become more protective of his story, his crowning achievement, now that he knows the show will finish first?

My own thoughts are: I seriously doubt it. He's never been critical, jealous or offended by the show. He's gone to its defense time and time again. It just makes no sense to me that he would willingly want to sabotage the most successful tv show he's ever worked on, it being a product of his own imagination, hard work and sacrifice. The books are his baby, yes...but this is also something for which he will be remembered and to which he will be forever linked.

[TheWhiteRabbit]

My own thoughts are: I seriously doubt it. He's never been critical, jealous or offended by the show. He's gone to its defense time and time again. It just makes no sense to me that he would willingly want to sabotage the most successful tv show he's ever worked on, it being a product of his own imagination, hard work and sacrifice. The books are his baby, yes...but this is also something for which he will be remembered and to which he will be forever linked.

I hope you're right. I wonder if he agreed to the show, knowing it might very well outpace him, in order to guarantee his series would get some kind of ending no matter what.

[Typhoon Swell]

I hope you're right. I wonder if he agreed to the show, knowing it might very well outpace him, in order to guarantee his series would get some kind of ending no matter what.

Yeah. I've always half believed GRRM viewed the show as sort of an out. I don't doubt he loves ASOIAF but he's clearly lost a lot of the drive needed to continue writing it.

[Lord Godric]

I hope you're right. I wonder if he agreed to the show, knowing it might very well outpace him, in order to guarantee his series would get some kind of ending no matter what.

There was an April Fool's article yesterday which said just this. It was funnier as a joke than a statement.

[Toyota]

Inevitable from the beginning, there's no way GRRM can finish book 7 before the series ends it will take at least 3-4 years after GoT has ended which will probably be released around 2021 or 2022.

[HousePotterz]

No matter how "short-cutted" the show is, I can't help but be disappointed about the fact that I will be reading A Dream of Spring already knowing who will sit on the Iron Throne. Imagine reading ASOS already knowing about the Red Wedding. That would be disgusting.

But this is your very subjective opinion. I watched the Red Wedding happen while I was reading ASOS for the first time, and hadn't yet reached that chapter. I was still very much engaged when I read the Red Wedding chapter very soon thereafter.

It still amazes me that five years later so many people can't accept, or understand, that this is the same story told through VERY different mediums that require very different methods in the telling. Just enjoy them for what they are!

[Steelborn]

It still amazes me that five years later so many people can't accept, or understand, that this is the same story told through VERY different mediums that require very different methods in the telling. Just enjoy them for what they are!

I fully agree with this. Although I think people underestimate spoilers. Storm was the first book I read without knowing what will happen and I guarantee that reading Storm, Feast and Dance was far more interesting than reading the first two.

Granted, I will continue to watch the show and I enjoy it. To broadly know "what happens in the end?" is not the only reason I read the books.

[sj4iy]

I fully agree with this. Although I think people underestimate spoilers. Storm was the first book I read without knowing what will happen and I guarantee that reading Storm, Feast and Dance was far more interesting than reading the first two.

Granted, I will continue to watch the show and I enjoy it. To broadly know "what happens in the end?" is not the only reason I read the books.

I read ASOS knowing what would happen because of my husband.

I read AFFC and ADWD without any knowledge at all.

ASOS was a better read and far more interesting than the latter two because it was a far superior book.

Well-written, fast-paced book + spoilers >>>> Plodding books - spoilers

[Squab]

But this is your very subjective opinion. I watched the Red Wedding happen while I was reading ASOS for the first time, and hadn't yet reached that chapter. I was still very much engaged when I read the Red Wedding chapter very soon thereafter.

It still amazes me that five years later so many people can't accept, or understand, that this is the same story told through VERY different mediums that require very different methods in the telling. Just enjoy them for what they are!

I think it will reflect in sales

[Khal Porno]

I think it will reflect in sales

I don't. If anything, sells will be better because of all the new readers the series has picked up because of the show. You know the book series is not more popular than it ever was, and that the original book (and I think the second one as well) wasn't on the bestseller lists until after the show started?

[Squab]

I don't. If anything, sells will be better because of all the new readers the series has picked up because of the show. You know the book series is not more popular than it ever was, and that the original book (and I think the second one as well) wasn't on the bestseller lists until after the show started?

That was from standard fantasy popularity to commercial popularity. Wow sales will be less if story already told through tv. He already lost fans after affc and that note at the end. Mates of mine stopped after asos because of the wait. Total sales will be worst of series until ados

[sj4iy]

That was from standard fantasy popularity to commercial popularity. Wow sales will be less if story already told through tv. He already lost fans after affc and that note at the end. Mates of mine stopped after asos because of the wait. Total sales will be worst of series until ados

Anecdotes aren't proof. If you want to back up your claims, find numbers.

Here's a good article showing how the sales of the books have been affected by the show, with a handy graph:

http://nielsentopten.com/2014/04/18/adaptation-how-a-song-of-ice-and-fire-book-sales-move-with-game-of-thrones/

Under your scenario, people would never bother reading the books which correlate to the seasons they've already seen...and as the graph shows us, that's just not true.

[Squab]

Anecdotes aren't proof. If you want to back up your claims, find numbers.

Here's a good article showing how the sales of the books have been affected by the show, with a handy graph:http://nielsentopten.com/2014/04/18/adaptation-how-a-song-of-ice-and-fire-book-sales-move-with-game-of-thrones/

Under your scenario, people would never bother reading the books which correlate to the seasons they've already seen...and as the graph shows us, that's just not true.

1. You have misrepresented me and the graph still fails to prove that misrepresentation wrong;

2. The scenario where the show tells the story first and then that book is released is nowhere on that graph and cannot reliably be inferred;

3. The graph supports that book sales fall as you move further into the series; hence:

For twow, total sales will be worst so far, until ados. I also think this will be exacerbated by the unexplained delay in release and that some of the story will have been told by the tv series.

I have no doubt some will still buy it. The concern will be as to whether you need to buy it as a book for that real, rustic smell you can hold in your hands and lug around so people see you reading it or, buying it electronically to read on whichever tablet is trendy in 2025.

Do you have a graph from a series where the tv show overtakes the books? For further proof? With such an extended wait? Or must we continue to speculate?

[sj4iy]

1. You have misrepresented me and the graph still fails to prove that misrepresentation wrong;

Actually, I think I proved my point quite well. You are using anecdotal evidence as some sort of 'proof' that Martin will suffer from dropped sales of his last books if the show finishes first...by that argument, the first book shouldn't be the best selling book on that graph past the first season- and yet, it is.

A better argument is that many people inevitably lose interest in a story as time goes on when there's no release date in sight. It has nothing to do with the tv show and everything to do with how people are in general. People get bored and move onto other things, with or without the show.

2. The scenario where the show tells the story first and then that book is released is nowhere on that graph and cannot reliably be inferred;

It's not about 'reliability', it's about pointing out the flaw in your argument. You think that once people know what will happen, they won't care anymore- I just proved to you that your argument is absolutely untrue. Otherwise, the first book in the series would not be the best selling book out of the five during season four- it would be AFFC and ADWD. But they aren't.

3. The graph supports that book sales fall as you move further into the series; hence:

Book sales IN GENERAL fall the longer they've been out unless they receive some sort of boost. That's just what happens. But Martin will inevitably have massive sales of TWOW as long as he can still ride the hype train of the show, whether its before or after the show has passed it.

Also, by your logic, people wouldn't bother watching movies or tv shows based on books they've already read because they know what's coming...and we know that's not true.

For twow, total sales will be worst so far, until ados. I also think this will be exacerbated by the unexplained delay in release and that some of the story will have been told by the tv series.

And how are you calculating this? In the long run? Because in the short run, it's almost assuredly going to be a best seller and will no doubt beat out the first four books (which did not have the advantage of the show) in short-term sales. ADWD broke records when it was released:

George R.R. Martin's A Dance With Dragons, book five in his epic "A Song of Ice and Fire' series, had the highest single and first-day sales of any new fiction title published this year: 298,000 copies in print, digital, and audio formats, publisher Random House announced today.

http://books.usatoday.com/bookbuzz/post/2011/07/record-sales-for-george-rr-martins-a-dance-with-dragons/176909/1

Now, it may never catch up to the other books, since it's the 6th in a very long narrative and most people who attempt to read the series never make it past the first book, and also because it hasn't had the same amount of being out, but it will be a best seller.

I have no doubt some will still buy it. The concern will be as to whether you need to buy it as a book for that real, rustic smell you can hold in your hands and lug around so people see you reading it or, buying it electronically to read on whichever tablet is trendy in 2025.

"Some people"? Seriously, you are using your own feelings as some sort of 'barometer' on how well a long-awaited book by one of the most popular authors in the ENTIRE WORLD will sell. Or what your friends thought?

Do you have a graph from a series where the tv show overtakes the books? For further proof? With such an extended wait? Or must we continue to speculate?

Actually, I do have an example. Fullmetal Alchemist, a popular manga/anime series in Japan...the manga was passed up by the tv show (which ended long before the manga did), and yet the manga still sold extremely well:

During 2008, volumes 19 and 20 sold over a million copies, ranking as the 10th and 11th best seller comics in Japan respectively.[75] In the first half of 2009, it ranked as the seventh best-seller in Japan, having sold over 3 million copies.[76] Volume 21 ranked fourth, with more than a million copies sold and volume 22 ranked sixth with a similar number of sold copies.[77] Producer Kouji Taguchi of Square Enix said that Volume 1's initial sales were 150,000 copies; this grew to 1.5 million copies after the first anime aired. Prior to the second anime's premiere, each volume sold about 1.9 million copies, and then it changed to 2.1 million copies.[78]

The anime series ran from October 4, 2003 – October 2, 2004, meaning that it ended years before the manga did. They weren't carbon copies of each other by any means, and the show had to go on its own without the manga because the creator of the manga didn't help write the show- but the manga continued to enjoy great success after the end of the very popular show.

Now, I actually lived in Japan during the time that the anime aired. It was very popular and got me interested in the manga. And even after the end of the show, I still wanted to know how the MANGA would end, because I knew there was enough difference between the two that it would still be an interesting read.

So, if the post-anime last volume of FMA can sell 2 million copies compared to the pre-anime first volume at 150,000, I see no reason whatsoever to believe that Martin's TWOW will suffer from bad sales compared to the other volumes.

[Seneti]

Actually, I do have an example. Fullmetal Alchemist, a popular manga/anime series in Japan...the manga was passed up by the tv show (which ended long before the manga did), and yet the manga still sold extremely well:

During 2008, volumes 19 and 20 sold over a million copies, ranking as the 10th and 11th best seller comics in Japan respectively.[75] In the first half of 2009, it ranked as the seventh best-seller in Japan, having sold over 3 million copies.[76] Volume 21 ranked fourth, with more than a million copies sold and volume 22 ranked sixth with a similar number of sold copies.[77] Producer Kouji Taguchi of Square Enix said that Volume 1's initial sales were 150,000 copies; this grew to 1.5 million copies after the first anime aired. Prior to the second anime's premiere, each volume sold about 1.9 million copies, and then it changed to 2.1 million copies.[78]

The anime series ran from October 4, 2003 – October 2, 2004, meaning that it ended years before the manga did. They weren't carbon copies of each other by any means, and the show had to go on its own without the manga because the creator of the manga didn't help write the show- but the manga continued to enjoy great success after the end of the very popular show.

Now, I actually lived in Japan during the time that the anime aired. It was very popular and got me interested in the manga. And even after the end of the show, I still wanted to know how the MANGA would end, because I knew there was enough difference between the two that it would still be an interesting read.

So, if the post-anime last volume of FMA can sell 2 million copies compared to the pre-anime first volume at 150,000, I see no reason whatsoever to believe that Martin's TWOW will suffer from bad sales compared to the other volumes.

:bowdown: You just made my day. Thank you :)

[sj4iy]

:bowdown: You just made my day. Thank you :)

Always glad to help ^^

:thumbsup:

[Liz Stark-Targaryen]

I recently met someone who knows GRRM well, who gave me some insight into this.

I think fans have to remember that GRRM is also a TV writer, and wrote for TV long before he began the series. He doesn't share some of his book purist fans' disdain for TV as a medium. He may be perfectly fine with D&D showing his ending and allowing him time to write and not rush the books.

As for the show passing up the books, as a book snob myself, I have to say that it couldn't have happened to a better fandom. As a former Unsullied, I came to these books before the show, but I've read a lot of other fantasy before Martin. The attitudes of book fans toward show-only people has been atrocious. It's not only superiority (all book and comic fans feel superior to those who only watch TV and movies), it's also the callous way that spoilers have been thrust into Unsullieds' faces, and just bad faith in general.

While I'm sad for the book fans who haven't done any of these things, because yes, it does stink, I am glad that some of the biggest trolls are going to get a taste of their own medicine. I just can't think of another fantasy fandom where this is an issue. So yes, it's rich that some are complaining about not being able to insulate themselves from spoilers.

It's also terrible that people are pressuring Martin and saying all kinds of terrible things about the man. No, he doesn't owe you anything, and you deserve everything he's said to you about anticipating his death. Just astounded by the entitlement of some ASOIAF fans. If it wasn't for GRRM, we wouldn't have the books, the show, the series, or anything at all.

I don't mind GRRM taking the time he needs to finish the series. I don't care about the show spoiling the books. I just want the books done right.

[Squab]

Actually, I think I proved my point quite well. You are using anecdotal evidence as some sort of 'proof' that Martin will suffer from dropped sales of his last books if the show finishes first...by that argument, the first book shouldn't be the best selling book on that graph past the first season- and yet, it is.A better argument is that many people inevitably lose interest in a story as time goes on when there's no release date in sight. It has nothing to do with the tv show and everything to do with how people are in general. People get bored and move onto other things, with or without the show.It's not about 'reliability', it's about pointing out the flaw in your argument. You think that once people know what will happen, they won't care anymore- I just proved to you that your argument is absolutely untrue. Otherwise, the first book in the series would not be the best selling book out of the five during season four- it would be AFFC and ADWD. But they aren't.Book sales IN GENERAL fall the longer they've been out unless they receive some sort of boost. That's just what happens. But Martin will inevitably have massive sales of TWOW as long as he can still ride the hype train of the show, whether its before or after the show has passed it.Also, by your logic, people wouldn't bother watching movies or tv shows based on books they've already read because they know what's coming...and we know that's not true.And how are you calculating this? In the long run? Because in the short run, it's almost assuredly going to be a best seller and will no doubt beat out the first four books (which did not have the advantage of the show) in short-term sales. ADWD broke records when it was released:George R.R. Martin's A Dance With Dragons, book five in his epic "A Song of Ice and Fire' series, had the highest single and first-day sales of any new fiction title published this year: 298,000 copies in print, digital, and audio formats, publisher Random House announced today.http://books.usatoday.com/bookbuzz/post/2011/07/record-sales-for-george-rr-martins-a-dance-with-dragons/176909/1Now, it may never catch up to the other books, since it's the 6th in a very long narrative and most people who attempt to read the series never make it past the first book, and also because it hasn't had the same amount of being out, but it will be a best seller."Some people"? Seriously, you are using your own feelings as some sort of 'barometer' on how well a long-awaited book by one of the most popular authors in the ENTIRE WORLD will sell. Or what your friends thought?Actually, I do have an example. Fullmetal Alchemist, a popular manga/anime series in Japan...the manga was passed up by the tv show (which ended long before the manga did), and yet the manga still sold extremely well:During 2008, volumes 19 and 20 sold over a million copies, ranking as the 10th and 11th best seller comics in Japan respectively.[75] In the first half of 2009, it ranked as the seventh best-seller in Japan, having sold over 3 million copies.[76] Volume 21 ranked fourth, with more than a million copies sold and volume 22 ranked sixth with a similar number of sold copies.[77] Producer Kouji Taguchi of Square Enix said that Volume 1's initial sales were 150,000 copies; this grew to 1.5 million copies after the first anime aired. Prior to the second anime's premiere, each volume sold about 1.9 million copies, and then it changed to 2.1 million copies.[78]The anime series ran from October 4, 2003 – October 2, 2004, meaning that it ended years before the manga did. They weren't carbon copies of each other by any means, and the show had to go on its own without the manga because the creator of the manga didn't help write the show- but the manga continued to enjoy great success after the end of the very popular show.Now, I actually lived in Japan during the time that the anime aired. It was very popular and got me interested in the manga. And even after the end of the show, I still wanted to know how the MANGA would end, because I knew there was enough difference between the two that it would still be an interesting read.So, if the post-anime last volume of FMA can sell 2 million copies compared to the pre-anime first volume at 150,000, I see no reason whatsoever to believe that Martin's TWOW will suffer from bad sales compared to the other volumes.

Again, you have misrepresented me. Glad your fans liked it.

Twow will have poorer sales than previous books as per your graph. A lot of people no longer need to read it as they lost interest due to delay or fall in quality but i think the tv series having told the story already will add to that. I dont see how logically that is hard to stomach.

The tv series and managa were different so stories in the manga were original published after the anime. Dubious relevance at best.

[sj4iy]

Again, you have misrepresented me. Glad your fans liked it.

Again, I've provided numerous pieces of evidence supporting my position. You've produced exactly zero. So, until you can show some evidence (instead of 'my friends' anecdotes), there's no reason to believe your stance whatsoever.

Twow will have poorer sales than previous books as per your graph. A lot of people no longer need to read it as they lost interest due to delay or fall in quality but i think the tv series having told the story already will add to that. I dont see how logically that is hard to stomach.

Oh, boy! More anecdotes!

Well, if we're trading anecdotes, I just asked my husband if he would read TWOW if the show passed it up, and he said he would! He even said that he'd buy it the very first day! Surely that's convincing, right? You know, since empirical evidence of increased sales due to the popularity of the tv show didn't convince you.

The tv series and managa were different so stories in the manga were original published after the anime. Dubious relevance at best.

Yeah, and the Game of Thrones tv show and ASOIAF books are different, too, so I guess your point is moot. You asked for evidence of a tv show/book series in which the book series still sold well despite the tv series passing it up, and I gave it to you. Just because you want to point out the fact that they aren't exactly the same (as if ANY tv show adaptation of a book series is EVER exactly the same) doesn't really mean much.