Confirmed, HBO show will spoil the ending of series

[Hiram McDrogon]

One man's best guess is that he had the overall arc of the series mapped out from the onset, with AGOT, ACOK, and ASOS as the beginning, AFFC and ADWD as the middle, and TWOW and ADOS as the ending. When he did away with the "five-year-gap" it demolished the middle of the story he had planned.

Isn't it "worse" than that? I had the impression that Part 1 was the War of Five Kings, Part 2 was Dany's invasion, and Part 3 was whatever's going to happen with the Others. AFFC and ADWD are sort of the epilogue to Part 1 / prologue to Part 2, but Part 2 hasn't really got going yet. This more than the writing speed issue is the main reason I fear the books are never going to end, and I suspect that, while AGOT/ACOK/ASOS will always stand as three marvellous books, the TV show may eventually become a better "complete work". Martin's doing a marvellous job of creating a full world with lots of complex characters. The unfortunate dilemma is that stories don't come to a dramatic conclusion in the real world - and I have no idea how or if GRRM is somehow going to wrap this all up in the books. If he succeeds in creating an ending that ties everything together without looking enormously contrived, all praise to him, but man, he's set himself an incredibly difficult task - and the direction of the most recent two books made that task significantly harder.

[Squab]

Many of the mysteries will be revealed by the tv series. Maybe not enough to spoil the last book but enough to spoil the ending.

Splitting some of the books, including all the long drawn out boring bits and even a world book is enough for me. He looks as if he is milking the popularity for all its worth and the tv series has caught him up while hes doing it

[shadow282]

And it's only a common sense that Martin would have never agreed for such a contract. And it's not like HBO would have done anything about it. It was them who were trying to persuade Martin to sell them the rights, not Martin trying to persuade them to buy the rights. It was his call to make.

Why exactly would he refuse or care at all? He's never thought about changing the ending. He never will or would change the ending. The show is going to tell the ending before him, and he still won't change it.

It's like if you're buying a house and the bank puts in the mortgage "If you gouge your eyes out with a toothpick you'll lose the house" I would still sign it. As would I imagine everybody else. Because that's not something I would ever do. It's not something I've ever considered doing, it's not something that will ever happen. So why wouldn't I sign?

Same principle. Martin will never change the ending, he knows he never would change the ending. If HBO said "we're only doing this deal if you agree with this condition" would he really turn it down because of a pointless condition? He doesn't strike me as that stupid. Do you really think he is?

[Dofs]

Why exactly would he refuse or care at all? He's never thought about changing the ending. He never will or would change the ending. The show is going to tell the ending before him, and he still won't change it.

It's like if you're buying a house and the bank puts in the mortgage "If you gouge your eyes out with a toothpick you'll lose the house" I would still sign it. As would I imagine everybody else. Because that's not something I would ever do. It's not something I've ever considered doing, it's not something that will ever happen. So why wouldn't I sign?

Same principle. Martin will never change the ending, he knows he never would change the ending. If HBO said "we're only doing this deal if you agree with this condition" would he really turn it down because of a pointless condition? He doesn't strike me as that stupid. Do you really think he is?

First of all, it's D&D who were persuading Martin to sell the movie rights, and were really trying hard to persuade him. So they would have never told him "we're only doing this deal if you agree with this condition". Martin has also numerous times told that he is a "gardener" type of writer, that his story changes all the time when he writes it. The published initial outline of the books shows how much did he change his story from what he initially planned it to be. So Martin wouldn't have put on himself artificial constraints of what to write in his future books. Sure, he knows what the ending is going to be and he is sure that is what will happen. But he has no reason to sign a contract that forces him to write that plan and leave himself no room for creative freedom. And again it was not him who was persuading HBO to buy the rights of the books, it was Martin who was getting persuaded, so it was up to Martin to decide.

But most of all, movie rights do NOT mean that the author must tell how the books will finish. WB was finding out the content of HP books together with everyone else - as they were coming out. Do you think that WB are extremely dumb that they did not make Rowling to sign the contract that made her tell them the ending and stick to that ending, as HBO, apparently, did with Martin?

[shadow282]

First of all, it's D&D who were persuading Martin to sell the movie rights, and were really trying hard to persuade him. So they would have never told him "we're only doing this deal if you agree with this condition". Martin has also numerous times told that he is a "gardener" type of writer, that his story changes all the time when he writes it. The published initial outline of the books shows how much did he change his story from what he initially planned it to be. So Martin wouldn't have put on himself artificial constraints of what to write in his future books. Sure, he knows what the ending is going to be and he is sure that is what will happen. But he has no reason to sign a contract that forces him to write that plan and leave himself no room for creative freedom. And again it was not him who was persuading HBO to buy the rights of the books, it was Martin who was getting persuaded, so it was up to Martin to decide.

But most of all, movie rights do NOT mean that the author must tell how the books will finish. WB was finding out the content of HP books together with everyone else - as they were coming out. Do you think that WB are extremely dumb that they did not make Rowling to sign the contract that made her tell them the ending and stick to that ending, as HBO, apparently, did with Martin?

He's also said EVERYWHERE that he loves his ending, that he's always been working towards this ending, that he has no plans to change this ending, that he's always been foreshadowing this ending, that it's a great ending, that his "gardener" approach hasn't ever changed the ultimate ending. He has not, would not, and will not change the ending. So WHY would he care? Seriously, give a reason. Nobody cares about not being able to do something they would never ever ever ever ever ever ever do anyway. Why would he?

I wasn't aware Rowlings contract had been publicly released. Could you provide a link for it? I'd love to read it over.

[Dofs]

He's also said EVERYWHERE that he loves his ending, that he's always been working towards this ending, that he has no plans to change this ending, that he's always been foreshadowing this ending, that it's a great ending, that his "gardener" approach hasn't ever changed the ultimate ending. He has not, would not, and will not change the ending. So WHY would he care? Seriously, give a reason. Nobody cares about not being able to do something they would never ever ever ever ever ever ever do anyway. Why would he?

Tell me a reason why would he sign it. Why not is not a reason. The reason not to sign is to not allow others to tell him what to write in his own books. They are HIS books, not HBO's. Not me, not you, not HBO can tell him what to write.

And Martin gave the the ultimate ending and the fates of all major characters. He may not change the ultimate ending and I surely hope he does not but he is already thinking about puling a huge twist about one of his long-shown characters. So I guess he is not that scared about HBO potentially suing him, isn't he?

I wasn't aware Rowlings contract had been publicly released. Could you provide a link for it? I'd love to read it over.

It wasn't, but there are indications that WB did not know the ending. Like the issue with Kreacher, whom WB wanted to cut from the fifth movie, but didn't because Rowling told them that he would be important for the ending. That clearly shows that WB did not know what this ending was going to be.

[BalerionTheCat]

I will not repeat the arguments, but I totally agree with Dofs.

ASOIAF is GRRM property. It is not a TV script. It is not: "Well, George, your story is good, but it would really be better if A dies and B lives, because you know the public will really hate A". As is usually the case, HBO has the right to use the names and the stories of ASOIAF, as they see fit. Change what they want for the TV. But they are not dictating anything to GRRM. They could not change the books after they are written. They could not change books that do not exist YET. HBO bought books (rights) which didn't exist. Which possibly could never exist! They took a risk. But they made sure they had enough data to do their show until its end. But how much the show and the books will remain alike is still unknown. Anyway, even when both will be finished, some will still argue about the importance of the differences.

It is for anyone who pretends GRRM is bound to something, to provide the evidences. AFAIK, GRRM can change whatever he wants still, if he feel it improves his story.

[shadow282]

Tell me a reason why would he sign it. Why not is not a reason. The reason not to sign is to not allow others to tell him what to write in his own books. They are HIS books, not HBO's. Not me, not you, not HBO can tell him what to write.

And Martin gave the the ultimate ending and the fates of all major characters. He may not change the ultimate ending and I surely hope he does not but he is already thinking about puling a huge twist about one of his long-shown characters. So I guess he is not that scared about HBO potentially suing him, isn't he?

It wasn't, but there are indications that WB did not know the ending. Like the issue with Kreacher, whom WB wanted to cut from the fifth movie, but didn't because Rowling told them that he would be important for the ending. That clearly shows that WB did not know what this ending was going to be.

Because it was a condition of the contract, and there's absolutely no downside is the reason for him to sign it. Signing this doesn't mean that HBO decides what he writes. He decided what he wanted to write. He, again, has not, would not, and will not change it. Signing this condition changes absolutely nothing for him.

This twist doesn't affect the ending, so it's not in any way relevant.

All that means is that WB didn't know the specifics of the story. Just like HBO didn't at the time of signing. Kreacher isn't important enough to be included in a broad strokes description of HP ending. Doesn't at all mean they didn't know what happened to the main characters at the end.

[FreeParking]

Isn't it "worse" than that? I had the impression that Part 1 was the War of Five Kings, Part 2 was Dany's invasion, and Part 3 was whatever's going to happen with the Others. AFFC and ADWD are sort of the epilogue to Part 1 / prologue to Part 2, but Part 2 hasn't really got going yet. This more than the writing speed issue is the main reason I fear the books are never going to end, and I suspect that, while AGOT/ACOK/ASOS will always stand as three marvellous books, the TV show may eventually become a better "complete work". Martin's doing a marvellous job of creating a full world with lots of complex characters. The unfortunate dilemma is that stories don't come to a dramatic conclusion in the real world - and I have no idea how or if GRRM is somehow going to wrap this all up in the books. If he succeeds in creating an ending that ties everything together without looking enormously contrived, all praise to him, but man, he's set himself an incredibly difficult task - and the direction of the most recent two books made that task significantly harder.

You are correct. AFFC and ADWD really are just a transition to the second act. That needs to sink in for people. It has taken him FIVE books just to get to the second act.

[sj4iy]

Tell me a reason why would he sign it. Why not is not a reason. The reason not to sign is to not allow others to tell him what to write in his own books. They are HIS books, not HBO's. Not me, not you, not HBO can tell him what to write.

And Martin gave the the ultimate ending and the fates of all major characters. He may not change the ultimate ending and I surely hope he does not but he is already thinking about puling a huge twist about one of his long-shown characters. So I guess he is not that scared about HBO potentially suing him, isn't he?

It wasn't, but there are indications that WB did not know the ending. Like the issue with Kreacher, whom WB wanted to cut from the fifth movie, but didn't because Rowling told them that he would be important for the ending. That clearly shows that WB did not know what this ending was going to be.

Seriously, what's the point of arguing what may or may not be in his contract? Martin says that he's told them what happens. He's said that the show is going to spoil the ending of the books. D&D have said that they are using his ending. So guess what? They are using his ending and Martin isn't changing it. End of discussion. Even if he could, he's said that he isn't. So what's the point of this debate? For Martin defenders to make it seem like he would never sell out like that? To give them hope that he's going to pull a 'gotcha' on HBO? That's not going to happen. So why continue this when it's a completely moot point in the first place?

[Dofs]

Because it was a condition of the contract

I'm not going to repeat my arguments over and over again. I believe such a condition is just nonsense and that you don't know what the right to adapt the book series even means. You can prove me wrong thought. Prove that anyone in the history had signed a contract like that. I am not even asking you to prove that this was the condition in Martin's contract, just show me anywhere where it is said that such contracts are being made.

Seriously, what's the point of arguing what may or may not be in his contract? Martin says that he's told them what happens. He's said that the show is going to spoil the ending of the books. D&D have said that they are using his ending. So guess what? They are using his ending and Martin isn't changing it. End of discussion. Even if he could, he's said that he isn't. So what's the point of this debate? For Martin defenders to make it seem like he would never sell out like that? To give them hope that he's going to pull a 'gotcha' on HBO? That's not going to happen. So why continue this when it's a completely moot point in the first place?

The point is that some people believe that Martin is entitled to finish the series the way HBO tells him to. And that apparently such deals are a common occurrence. I really do not care about the principle of Martin following the plan he gave to D&D or not. I am not sure HBO cares, considering that they will finish the show long before the books will finish. The only reason I hope that he does not change the ending is just I fear for the quality of it. But the notion that he can't change the ending is, imo, just stupid.

[sj4iy]

The point is that some people believe that Martin is entitled to finish the series the way HBO tells him to.

No one ever said that. No one has argued that...ever.

What people argued is that Martin agreed to give them the ending, or at least, the broad overview of his story. And that he can't simply say "you know what, fuck HBO...I'm going to change everything I told them". No one has ever argued that HBO can tell Martin what to do with his story. People (myself included) have argued that he can't give HBO one ending and then write a completely different one in order to sell more books. And they CAN put that in a contract, because that would damage HBO's property...especially if they worked with Martin in good faith to follow his story and then he try to pull one over on them. Of course, things will change in the course of writing, but as long as Martin is working with HBO is good faith, then there won't be issues.

[Dofs]

No one ever said that. No one has argued that...ever.

What people argued is that Martin agreed to give them the ending, or at least, the broad overview of his story. And that he can't simply say "you know what, fuck HBO...I'm going to change everything I told them". No one has ever argued that HBO can tell Martin what to do with his story. People (myself included) have argued that he can't give HBO one ending and then write a completely different one in order to sell more books. And they CAN put that in a contract, because that would damage HBO's property...especially if they worked with Martin in good faith to follow his story and then he try to pull one over on them. Of course, things will change in the course of writing, but as long as Martin is working with HBO is good faith, then there won't be issues.

No, you and other did argue exactly that. Obviously Martin is not going to screw himself and his own books just to piss off HBO, but there might be a small chance that something occurs to Martin and he starts to think that he has a better idea for, for example, Jon's ending. What you and some others are saying is that HBO can point him to the plan he gave them 10 years ago and say that 'no, you can't write that, you must write what is written here!'. That is, effectively, HBO telling him what to write.

[sj4iy]

No, you and other did argue exactly that. Obviously Martin is not going to screw himself and his own books just to piss off HBO, but there might be a small chance that something occurs to Martin and he starts to think that he has a better idea for, for example, Jon's ending. What you and some others are saying is that HBO can point him to the plan he gave them 10 years ago and say that 'no, you can't write that, you must write what is written here!'. That is, effectively, HBO telling him what to write.

No, we didn't. You are completely misrepresenting what we said and twisting it to mean something that was never argued in the first place. Martin agreeing to give HBO the same ending as he's planning for his books IS NOT THE SAME as saying that HBO is FORCING Martin to do what they say. HBO isn't forcing Martin to do shit. Martin could tell HBO that he's killing every character in the book and they can either use it or not...but they can't make him change that if that's what he's going to do. What he CAN'T do is give them a bogus ending just so that they CAN'T copy his ending. They bought the rights to the books, which means that they should have the ability to adapt it as closely as they wish...if Martin makes it IMPOSSIBLE for them to do that, then that would be breach of contract.

[olenna123]

What people argued is that Martin agreed to give them the ending, or at least, the broad overview of his story. And that he can't simply say "you know what, fuck HBO...I'm going to change everything I told them". No one has ever argued that HBO can tell Martin what to do with his story. People (myself included) have argued that he can't give HBO one ending and then write a completely different one in order to sell more books. And they CAN put that in a contract, because that would damage HBO's property...especially if they worked with Martin in good faith to follow his story and then he try to pull one over on them. Of course, things will change in the course of writing, but as long as Martin is working with HBO is good faith, then there won't be issues.

Absolutely. I agree with all the points you are making. Some people really do believe the opposite though. It's just not very realistic. But then again people didn't believe that the show would spoil the ending when it's been a sure thing for some time. There is a lot of wishful thinking that is never gonna go away until the full story is told, for some reason.

[Dofs]

No, we didn't. You are completely misrepresenting what we said and twisting it to mean something that was never argued in the first place. Martin agreeing to give HBO the same ending as he's planning for his books IS NOT THE SAME as saying that HBO is FORCING Martin to do what they say. HBO isn't forcing Martin to do shit. Martin could tell HBO that he's killing every character in the book and they can either use it or not...but they can't make him change that if that's what he's going to do. What he CAN'T do is give them a bogus ending just so that they CAN'T copy his ending. They bought the rights to the books, which means that they should have the ability to adapt it as closely as they wish...if Martin makes it IMPOSSIBLE for them to do that, then that would be breach of contract.

Yes, you are. Because if Martin decides to change it now, you are claiming that HBO can force him to follow what he told them 10 years ago. Or else they would sue him. And I am saying that no, they can't tell him anything, and that means he can change his ending how he wants and when he wants and that won't be a breach of the contract. HBO doesn't have the rights to the book, they have the rights to ADAPT the book on screen that is they are ALLOWED to use Martin's character names, Martin's stories, and that if they film it, Martin won't be able to sue them for breaching of copyright. That's what buying the rights to adapt the books mean. HBO is allowed to use names like "Tyrion Lannister", "Jon Snow" etc. The may use them, they may not, the may put aliens to the adaptation, that's up to HBO. Buying the rights to adapt the series does not mean being able to adapt as close as possible, it does not mean that a studio must know the ending of unfinished books. If you think it does, I am happy to be proven wrong.

[sj4iy]

Yes, you are. Because if Martin decides to change it now, you are claiming that HBO can force him to follow what he told them 10 years ago. Or else they would sue him. And I am saying that no, they can't tell him anything, and that means he can change his ending how he wants and when he wants and that won't be a breach of the contract. HBO doesn't have the rights to the book, they have the rights to ADAPT the book on screen that is they are ALLOWED to use Martin's character names, Martin's stories, and that if they film it, Martin won't be able to sue them for breaching of copyright. That's what buying the rights to adapt the books mean. HBO is allowed to use names like "Tyrion Lannister", "Jon Snow" etc. The may use them, they may not, the may put aliens to the adaptation, that's up to HBO. Buying the rights to adapt the series does not mean being able to adapt as close as possible, it does not mean that a studio must know the ending of unfinished books. If you think it does, I am happy to be proven wrong.

You're not listening to anything I've said and continue to misinterpret what I've said. I'm not bothering anymore.

[Dofs]

You're not listening to anything I've said and continue to misinterpret what I've said. I'm not bothering anymore.

What you had said is that he can't give them a wrong ending and that if he will, that would be a breach of the contract. Thus, if he ends the books differently from what he told HBO, that would be a breach of the contract. Where am I wrong here?

[earth127]

It's breach if he gave them purpossefully a wrong ending. If he changes now HBO got unlucky, that's the risk buying a non-finished license. And if he does change it so what. I doubt he's going to massively turn his books around at this stage. Hell I'm afraid he might never finish them.

[Mother of Mountains]

I would assume the thing HBO have that they hope will keep him onside is the long term development deal.

The detail of the story doesn't matter too much, they already play with it so much, Martin is free to noodle around as much as he likes up to appoint. The thing that matters to him is the development deal and he'll keep the big points of the plot as is because of it.