Heresy 180

[Black Crow]

I interpreted the grey stone chains as the influence of  the chained Maester Luwin who is always dressed in grey robes and tries to prevent Bran's dreams with potions and also tries to talk him out of any kind of magical thing (dreams, wolves, Children, etc.).

But I like your suggestion as well.

I'd be inclined to interpret it in two not necessarily exclusive ways. First as you suggest the Maesters might be tying him down, but alternatively given the direwolves' attitude to stone walls and chambers, might it be Winterfell itself which is insulating the Starks from the old magic - until the direwolves are invited in.

[WhitewolfStark]

I have a little theory and i wonder what you people thinks about it.

 

Most likely Jon will turn out to be the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna , and therefore the union of Ice( Stark) and Fire ( Targ) . I think the main thing about this series is balance between ice and fire , just like in Star wars where it has to be balance in the force. 

 

So here is my idea. Jon will defeat the Nights King with fire , with valyrian steel , dragonglass and maybe a dragon. And after this he will take control of the WW and use them against Dany and will defeat her. So Jon will use both Ice and fire for the greater good.

This I doubt. While I doubt most of Preston Jacobs' strange conclusions, he does know how to analyze an author's work rather well. Considering GRRM is most likely referencing Robert Frost's Poem: Fire & Ice (which is a short anti-war poem written after WWI), and considering that GRRM's other works are all about anti-war themes (and he's referenced Frost's poetry before). I don't see there being any kind of triumphal defeat of Fire or Ice occurring. More likely, Jon does what he's been doing since the beginning: trying to negotiate between two sides that have a history of bad blood between them. Whether Jon succeeds or not depends upon how hippie you believe GRRM to be IMO.

[Black Crow]

Indeed. Although the '93 synopsis speaks of a climactic battle at the end with the future of humanity at stake I'm wary of the Azor Ahai riding dragons to victory scenario which seems to me a total negation of what GRRM has been writing all the way along. There's no mention of legendary heroes in the synopsis and all the way through the military option has always ended in tears, creating more and worse problems. Danaerys the dragonlord failed in Mereen and whilst I won't for a moment suggest that the Others are really the good guys but misunderstood I don't, as I said above, see them as a faceless enemy which ultimately exists only as a threat for the chosen one to save the world by destroying. And again this is another reason why I see Bran as the unknown Westerosi version of the prince and that his true role is not to learn how to defeat the others far less learn how to warg dragons in order to destroy them. If anything it may be the opposite and while the old heretical joke that it will not be a case of the dragons saving Westeros from the Others but rather the Others saving Westeros from the dragons may not turn out literally to be true, I think the whole point of this is that just as we should not place our trust in princes, neither should we place our trust in heroes. 

[LordImp]

 

This I doubt. While I doubt most of Preston Jacobs' strange conclusions, he does know how to analyze an author's work rather well. Considering GRRM is most likely referencing Robert Frost's Poem: Fire & Ice (which is a short anti-war poem written after WWI), and considering that GRRM's other works are all about anti-war themes (and he's referenced Frost's poetry before). I don't see there being any kind of triumphal defeat of Fire or Ice occurring. More likely, Jon does what he's been doing since the beginning: trying to negotiate between two sides that have a history of bad blood between them. Whether Jon succeeds or not depends upon how hippie you believe GRRM to be IMO.

Cant argue with that. 

[e1kabong]

With all this talk about different hero prophecies I want to point out that there is no such prophecy from Westeros. The Last Hero story is just that: a story/legend. Nowhere is his reappearance/rebirth foretold. At least no such prophecy is directly spelled out in this story. I have a suggestion though: the winged wolf.

We first learn of the winged wolf from Jojen:

“I dreamed of a winged wolf bound to earth with grey stone chains,” he said. “It was a green dream, so I knew it was true. A crow was trying to peck through the chains, but the stone was too hard and his beak could only chip at them.”

Jojen had many green dreams before but this one must have been special because it led Howland Reed to abandon his decades old isolation and send his only two children on to a dangerous mission:

“When Jojen told our lord father what he’d dreamed, he sent us to Winterfell.”

...

Of course Rhaegar and Lyanna had a different kind of winged wolf in mind...

 

I don't think that the winged wolf is something that Howland Reed recognizes from prophecy, but from his own life. Remember, if R+L=J is true, then Howland Reed is the only person alive who would have this knowledge as the sole survivor of the Tower of Joy (tinfoil theories aside, like those crazies who think Mance Rayder is Arthur Dayne--the weirdos). Meaning that he allowed the children to go because he knows Jon Snow's parentage and assumed that Jojen dreamt of him.

The stone chains mentioned fit very nicely into one theory of Jon's resurrection, that of Melisandre waking a dragon from stone by sacrificing Shireen (Greyscale, Stone Men, etc...). By "sundering the stone" the winged wolf is unleashed. It's probable that Bran has a role to play in this to assist Bloodraven somehow (perhaps Old God magic will help keep Jon's mind/soul intact, unlike others brought back like Lady Stoneheart), but I think that, ultimately, Bran is not the winged wolf. It would really be helpful if they described the wolf's wings, but I think they intentionally left out whether they were bat-like or bird-like.

Alternatively, the crow trying to peck at the stone chains might not be Bloodraven at all, since the three eyes are only described AFTER Bran asks. Jojen's original description of the dream doesn't mention the number of eyes. This would also put points for Jon as the winged wolf. Jon's character arch begins with the crows of the Night's Watch, who chip away his personality to bring out the kind of person he is (leader, warrior, etc.), though they are no nearer to the truth of his bloodline (ie - that of the dragon wolf).

[Armstark]

Well, It is an open question who the winged wolf really is, you could make a case for all the stark children I think. Sansa is even described as such once:

The northern girl. Winterfell's daughter. We heard she killed the king with a spell, and afterward changed into a wolf with big leather wings like a bat, and flew out a tower window.

Arya fantasizes about it:

I wish I could change into a wolf and grow wings and fly away.

Ambiguity is the nature of Martin's prophecies.

But I don't think Howland thought of Jon Snow when he heard of Jojen's green dream because he sent his children to Winterfell and not the Wall.

[shizett]

Hi, I am new to Heresy but have been going through the Heresy threads and am not sure if these ideas have been discussed. They are a bit unrelated to our current line of discussion, I waited for a couple of days for a more related discussions but they do not seem to come up, so please forgive me if my comments seem out of place.

1. Assuming L+R= J, When talking about theories of Jon's resurrection, It seems to me that one line of his parentage gets disregarded: the discussions are mainly about active attributes of bloodlines, but maybe bloodlines have some passive attributes as well, so that the blood is not only powerful when it is shed (in some form of sacrifice or magical spell) but has some benefits for the person of that bloodline as well. In that case Jon having Targaryan blood (which seems to have elements of fire) would be immune to Ice elements, and hence cannot become the NK. Following the same logic, he cannot be resurrected by Mel, since he has Stark blood (which has Ice elements in it). 

A very weak argument would be how Torrhen Stark knelt before Aegon I without resistance. If these Ice and Fire elements are not superior to each other, North cannot possibly win against Dragon riders, but will enter into an unending war.

2. (I am much less confident about this one) My understanding is that it is not clear when the wall was built exactly (It might be built by Brandon the Builder but it might be much older than that). In that case any pact between humans and non-humans would have First Men as the representative of Human race. Given that Starks seem to be the official remnants of First Men, maybe that is why "There must always be a Stark in Winterfell" and the generational presence of Starks in the wall. So it might not be a family bloodline but a racial one. In that case anything attributed to Stark can be attributed to anyone with First Men blood. 

[Black Crow]

Well, It is an open question who the winged wolf really is, you could make a case for all the stark children I think. Sansa is even described as such once:

The northern girl. Winterfell's daughter. We heard she killed the king with a spell, and afterward changed into a wolf with big leather wings like a bat, and flew out a tower window.

Arya fantasizes about it:

I wish I could change into a wolf and grow wings and fly away.

Ambiguity is the nature of Martin's prophecies.

But I don't think Howland thought of Jon Snow when he heard of Jojen's green dream because he sent his children to Winterfell and not the Wall.

That would perhaps be consistent with what I suggested above about the Starks being "chained" by Winterfell until the direwolves were invited in

[Black Crow]

Indeed. Although the '93 synopsis speaks of a climactic battle at the end with the future of humanity at stake I'm wary of the Azor Ahai riding dragons to victory scenario which seems to me a total negation of what GRRM has been writing all the way along. There's no mention of legendary heroes in the synopsis and all the way through the military option has always ended in tears, creating more and worse problems. Danaerys the dragonlord failed in Mereen and whilst I won't for a moment suggest that the Others are really the good guys but misunderstood I don't, as I said above, see them as a faceless enemy which ultimately exists only as a threat for the chosen one to save the world by destroying. And again this is another reason why I see Bran as the unknown Westerosi version of the prince and that his true role is not to learn how to defeat the others far less learn how to warg dragons in order to destroy them. If anything it may be the opposite and while the old heretical joke that it will not be a case of the dragons saving Westeros from the Others but rather the Others saving Westeros from the dragons may not turn out literally to be true, I think the whole point of this is that just as we should not place our trust in princes, neither should we place our trust in heroes. 

And of course while the synopsis says nothing of Azor Ahai or the Royal Targaryen Airforce it does on the other hand say:

Wolf and lion must hunt together, maester and greenseer work as one, all the blood feuds must be put aside, the bitter rivals and sworn enemies join hands

In other words GRRM not merely "omitted" to say anything about a chosen one but very explicitly laid out a very different scenario.

[Black Crow]

Hi, I am new to Heresy but have been going through the Heresy threads and am not sure if these ideas have been discussed. They are a bit unrelated to our current line of discussion, I waited for a couple of days for a more related discussions but they do not seem to come up, so please forgive me if my comments seem out of place.

1. Assuming L+R= J, When talking about theories of Jon's resurrection, It seems to me that one line of his parentage gets disregarded: the discussions are mainly about active attributes of bloodlines, but maybe bloodlines have some passive attributes as well, so that the blood is not only powerful when it is shed (in some form of sacrifice or magical spell) but has some benefits for the person of that bloodline as well. In that case Jon having Targaryan blood (which seems to have elements of fire) would be immune to Ice elements, and hence cannot become the NK. Following the same logic, he cannot be resurrected by Mel, since he has Stark blood (which has Ice elements in it). 

A very weak argument would be how Torrhen Stark knelt before Aegon I without resistance. If these Ice and Fire elements are not superior to each other, North cannot possibly win against Dragon riders, but will enter into an unending war.

2. (I am much less confident about this one) My understanding is that it is not clear when the wall was built exactly (It might be built by Brandon the Builder but it might be much older than that). In that case any pact between humans and non-humans would have First Men as the representative of Human race. Given that Starks seem to be the official remnants of First Men, maybe that is why "There must always be a Stark in Winterfell" and the generational presence of Starks in the wall. So it might not be a family bloodline but a racial one. In that case anything attributed to Stark can be attributed to anyone with First Men blood. 

Welcome to Heresy  

As you suspected, most of this has been discussed before, which certainly isn't to prevent it being discussed again, especially with a fresh pair of eyes.

In terms of R+L=J [or as you more accurately render it L+R=J] heresy accommodates a broad range of views and a readiness to consider other candidates for Jon's father - but on the whole I'd say there is broad acceptance that while Rhaegar is the most likely contender he is probably at one and the same time a red herring and that what is going to be important in all of this is that Jon is the son of Lyanna and a son of Winterfell rather than a lost Targaryen prince. OK arguably he's both, but its going to be the Winterfell connection that is significant.

[cutuphalfdead]

Welcome to Heresy  

As you suspected, most of this has been discussed before, which certainly isn't to prevent it being discussed again, especially with a fresh pair of eyes.

In terms of R+L=J [or as you more accurately render it L+R=J] heresy accommodates a broad range of views and a readiness to consider other candidates for Jon's father - but on the whole I'd say there is broad acceptance that while Rhaegar is the most likely contender he is probably at one and the same time a red herring and that what is going to be important in all of this is that Jon is the son of Lyanna and a son of Winterfell rather than a lost Targaryen prince. OK arguably he's both, but its going to be the Winterfell connection that is significant.

But isn't he a son of Winterfell anyway under his assumed parentage of N+?=J?

[Black Crow]

But isn't he a son of Winterfell anyway under his assumed parentage of N+?=J?

Yes and no. The problem is that he spent his whole life being told otherwise; being told that he wasn't a Stark, even by his bestest friend Robb Stark. He was told he didn't belong and ironically given the assumptions of those who see him first and foremost as the son of Rhaegar, it was Aemon Targaryen who resoundingly insisted that he take command on the Wall because:

"You are a son of Winterfell, a nephew of Benjen Stark. It must be you or no one."

[Sly Wren]

The original synopsis had Dany the Dragonlord [and I use the term advisedly] conquering Westeros and then discovering it was easier to conquer than rule, but we seem pretty well agreed this part has been translated into Mereen in the book as written, so whither now the Dragonlord. Is she going destroy the slavers once and for all, rule her ungrateful new people wisely and take up knitting or is she going to sweep westward with her dragons and her khalassar and her Ironborn as Shiva the Destroyer?

And if so is she going to be stopped by the Prince that was Promised?

Given Dany's hearing Jorah tell her that "dragons don't plant trees" plus the khalassar--I think Dany's coming as pure conqueror. She may still think it's "saving" Westeros, but I really think it's pure conqueror.

As for who stops her--my current crackpot is either Brienne or Jaime. With Oathkeeper. The sword that drinks light into it. Perhaps also drinks fire into it? Throw in the barely mentioned part of the Azor Ahai legend about slaying a monster, and the fact that true knights slay dragon. . .hardly rock solid evidence. But I'm thinking Brienne or maybe Jaime kills Drogon and/or Dany. Jaime killed Aerys to protect King's Landing. Only Brienne knows the story. And he gave her that sword. So. . . maybe.

[Sly Wren]

With all this talk about different hero prophecies I want to point out that there is no such prophecy from Westeros. The Last Hero story is just that: a story/legend. Nowhere is his reappearance/rebirth foretold. At least no such prophecy is directly spelled out in this story. I have a suggestion though: the winged wolf.

So my speculation is that the imagery of a winged wolf is not some unknown metaphor to Howland Reed but something he has heard of before and which he considers to be of the utmost importance. Since Howland never left the Neck except for the KoTLT story and the following war it seems logical that the winged wolf is connected to those events. Which leads me to Rickard Stark's southron ambitions and the unusual wedding he pursued.

We know of the Targaryens that they tried for decades to find the right match of partners to create the PtwP and bring back the dragons. What if Rickard Stark was doing something similar? Find the right bride for his heir to create the winged wolf and bring back skinchanging. Catelyn Tully of course is descended from a Whent of Harrenhal whose sigil is the bat. It seems to have worked since the current Stark kids are all skinchanger.

I'm liking this!

Queen Alysanne gets called "good"--but she mucked up the Night's Watch and detached them from the Nightfort. A clear source of magic and reminder of the original oath. What better way to remind people of the importance of the watch than a quick field trip to visit Blacky, the talking wall?

Knowingly or not, I buy the theory that the Targs messed with the Starks' connection to the Wall (possibly even changing the "service" at the Wall to lifetime service). Could the dragons have blamed the dirwewolves for the winters? Misinterpreted the phrase "kings of winter?" 

Assuming any of the above is true, the idea that the winged wolves, the wolves who can rise above and "save" the North, might be somewhere in the North's ideology doesn't feel like too much of a stretch. The hill clans know the direwolves keep them safe. They follow champions, not traditionally "inherited" titles. But they honor the Starks--their champions. So, the idea that the right kind of wolves could be the protectors. . . that the metaphor might have survived in stories somewhere. . . yes, I', liking this idea.

Edit: Didn't fully explain my train of thought.  I believe Jojen has interpreted wrong. Instead of freeing Bran and taking him to BR, they have actually led him to bondage. The biggest reason I mistrust BR and the children.

I also agree with this--others have mentioned how Jojen's getting more and more glum as they get closer to Bloodraven might mean he's starting to realize this isn't going like he thought it would. 

So, will the Reeds be able to free the wolf after they've helped to chain him?

[cutuphalfdead]

Yes and no. The problem is that he spent his whole life being told otherwise; being told that he wasn't a Stark, even by his bestest friend Robb Stark. He was told he didn't belong and ironically given the assumptions of those who see him first and foremost as the son of Rhaegar, it was Aemon Targaryen who resoundingly insisted that he take command on the Wall because:

"You are a son of Winterfell, a nephew of Benjen Stark. It must be you or no one."

 

But if R+L=J (which I believe) then he's still a bastard and his Stark blood becomes maternal, not paternal, which in this society seems like it would lessen the claim. I don't think what he was told really changes anything. Most of Robert's bastards were never told who they really were but that doesn't weaken their kingsblood.

I see it is he's a son of Winterfell whether Ned's his father of Lyanna's his mother, and what makes the difference if R+L=J is that now he's also Targ, and therefor Ice and Fire instead of of just one or the other.

[Black Crow]

Bael the Bard's bastard son became Lord of Winterfell through his Stark mother. Which is rather the point of that story, as told to Jon.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not dismissing the possibility that a drop of Targaryen blood may be significant, but rather questioning whether it is going to be as significant as some like to think - and, as you'll have seen from the discussion above, whether the resolution of the story will require or involve a chosen one.

[Black Crow]

Given Dany's hearing Jorah tell her that "dragons don't plant trees" plus the khalassar--I think Dany's coming as pure conqueror. She may still think it's "saving" Westeros, but I really think it's pure conqueror.

As for who stops her--my current crackpot is either Brienne or Jaime. With Oathkeeper. The sword that drinks light into it. Perhaps also drinks fire into it? Throw in the barely mentioned part of the Azor Ahai legend about slaying a monster, and the fact that true knights slay dragon. . .hardly rock solid evidence. But I'm thinking Brienne or maybe Jaime kills Drogon and/or Dany. Jaime killed Aerys to protect King's Landing. Only Brienne knows the story. And he gave her that sword. So. . . maybe.

Its certainly possible, but the question here is how far if at all GRRM is deviating from the original synopsis. Danaerys the Dragonlord was certainly the second of the three threats to Westeros and it appears he intended that by the time the third threat tooled up in the form of the Others she and her Dothraki would have already conquered the place - which might not be to say that she didn't lose her dragons in the process, hence the need for the Starks and the Lannisters to work together.

[TheButcherCrow]

Welcome to Heresy  

As you suspected, most of this has been discussed before, which certainly isn't to prevent it being discussed again, especially with a fresh pair of eyes.

In terms of R+L=J [or as you more accurately render it L+R=J] heresy accommodates a broad range of views and a readiness to consider other candidates for Jon's father - but on the whole I'd say there is broad acceptance that while Rhaegar is the most likely contender he is probably at one and the same time a red herring and that what is going to be important in all of this is that Jon is the son of Lyanna and a son of Winterfell rather than a lost Targaryen prince. OK arguably he's both, but its going to be the Winterfell connection that is significant.

Welcome   When BC says "broad acceptance" (in reference to the bolded section) I would suggest (with respect) that he is vastly overestimating the support for that particular "pet orthodoxy" of his.  If Jon is the son of R+L then it's pretty obvious to me the most important thing about that fact is that he is the son of BOTH Rhaegar & Lyanna, a child of ice & fire.  It may seem a bit on the nose but then some stuff has to be.  Bran is Ice, Bran is the son of Winterfell, Bran is the Winter King (before anybody gives me "sweet summer child" or "his wolf is called Summer" I would point out that in Celtic paganism the child born of the Green Man and the May (or "Fire") Queen then becomes next year's Winter King and the cycle continues).  Dany is quite clearly fire, I don't think I need to get evidential on that one.  Jon on the other hand displays qualities of both (hotheadedly running off to join Robb, cold-bloodedly executing Slynt) and the instances of Jon displaying emotional characteristics that may be assigned to either ice or fire hardly ends there.  At this point I will stray from evidence-based arguments to a more opinion-based approach.  It's my belief we are watching history repeat itself, to a degree but that this time something is fundamentally different, perhaps even many small things.  The most important difference I see is that we have a Jon, I feel like he is the wildcard that isn't supposed to exist.  That said, I'm also drawn to the notion that he is an anomaly but a deliberately created one (before you ask, everyone's favourite tree-based wizard would be the prime, shit the ONLY suspect).  Either way I am absolutely sure that who Jon's father is is just as significant as who his mother is, Jon makes very little sense to me otherwise.

[e1kabong]

Given Dany's hearing Jorah tell her that "dragons don't plant trees" plus the khalassar--I think Dany's coming as pure conqueror. She may still think it's "saving" Westeros, but I really think it's pure conqueror.

As for who stops her--my current crackpot is either Brienne or Jaime. With Oathkeeper. The sword that drinks light into it. Perhaps also drinks fire into it? Throw in the barely mentioned part of the Azor Ahai legend about slaying a monster, and the fact that true knights slay dragon. . .hardly rock solid evidence. But I'm thinking Brienne or maybe Jaime kills Drogon and/or Dany. Jaime killed Aerys to protect King's Landing. Only Brienne knows the story. And he gave her that sword. So. . . maybe.

I don't think the idea that Jaime will be the one to stand against Dany's destruction is crackpot at all. As mentioned, Jaime saving King's Landing is one of the most selfless acts of heroism we've been privy to in the series. Unlike other heroic acts that are driven by love/need to protect loved ones, self-preservation, or honor, Jaime's thoughts are solely of saving King's Landing. He forsook honor and personal safety to protect the small-folk and nobles alike. When they dubbed him Kingslayer and cursed his name, he didn't fight it. It reminds me a lot of the end of Nolan's Dark Knight (ie - He's the hero Gotham deserves, but not the one it needs right now. So we'll hunt him. Because he can take it. Because he's not our hero. He's a silent guardian, a watchful protector.). I'm not claiming that it's an influence on the books, but provides an interesting archetype that it appears Jaime's development shares potential themes with. Although we've met him at a time where he's basically committed to being the monster everyone thinks he already is while his true self retreats deep down, his story has been one of reclaiming the heroic, knightly ideals he had as a young man, before there was a Kingslayer. Through his POV, this notion of his lost ideals comes up quite often:

And me, that boy I was … when did he die, I wonder? When I donned the white cloak? When I opened Aerys’s throat? That boy had wanted to be Ser Arthur Dayne, but someplace along the way he had become the Smiling Knight instead.

Moreover, Jaime is also the most logical leader of the forces that would stand against Dany's invasion, since his son and king would be the one he's fighting to keep on the throne by repelling Dany's forces. I can't think of any further suitable candidates on team Lannister that have already been introduced yet that have the fame/infamy along with battle-tested knowledge to successfully lead an army (minus maybe Randyll Tarly). Unless, of course, Jon Connington's forces are forced to engage Dany on behalf of the "true heir", but that wouldn't necessarily equate to a treaty with the Lannisters. 

Lastly, I think that there's substantial clues that lend some possibility to Jaime being the fabled hero Azor Ahai/Prince that was Promised, or at least tied very closely to him/her (maybe Tommen). Although there are plenty to choose from, my personal favorite also ties into a discussion that was being had previously about mistranslations related to this prophecy. In Valyrian, "Lord of Light" is pronounced "Aeksio Onos". "Golden Hand" is pronounced as "Aeksion Ondos". It's not too crazy to believe that this subtle change could have occurred, particularly when the novels make plain the pitfalls of prophecy. 

[shizett]

Hi again. Thanks a lot for the reminders, replies, and discussions. I enjoyed reading them.

I had another two topics I wanted to discuss:

1. We always talk about magic from COTF being blood magic (Being related to Weirwood trees and all) . Where did this blood (source of magic) come from when humans weren't around? As I understand, humans are late additions to the world in Westroes, but magic was prevalent before they came, so what was the source of blood before humans? Animals? COTF? COTF seem to live for long and do not reproduce much (or at all), so sacrificing themselves would both be impractical and a much grander sacrifice than killing a human. It just seems to me that blood as the source for magic must be the result of human presence and they might even have brought it with themselves (from Essos in general). Also, Bran Only saw humans sacrifing humans, we never really saw COTF sacrificing Humans, nor did we really see if that blood added to his abilities or give him any kind of powers. It might just be that First men when appropriating the culture of COTF added part of their previous culture to it. Was this discussed before?

2. (To contradict myself completely) If we agree that blood magic is something of relevance to COTF AND/OR WW, then I would say that maybe the whole flock of wildlings are sacrificial offerings to powers beyond the Wall. Let's assume that NW has actually stayed true to its mission all this time (that Jon, Mance, and Maester Aemon got it completely wrong). NW's true mission was ensuring the presence of Wildlings on the other side of the Wall. Child bearing Wildlings seem like an unending resource of Blood to me. We know that Wildlings have been fending off the WWs and Wights forever. We also see signs of sacrifice to WW in Craster's behavior. He simply might have been doing his duty all along. Also, as we saw at the very beginning of the story (and as I have read somewhere in the huge body of Heresy archives) all the wildlings that cross the wall and get caught, get killed(read sacrificed) immediately. The same goes for NW members, they are sacrificial offerings as well (I am pretty sure I read this theory somewhere too). I would say that this could go for all the beings on the other side of the wall (COTF, giants, and mammoths included). If we had a wide distribution of all races in both sides of the Wall, maybe they were all offered. Maybe Leaf (and other possible COTF beyond the wall) know and are still trying to get away. Extinction of those races south of wall has no specific relation to the wall itself. Starks where basically the second base who ensured this sacrificing probably because otherwise the whole realm of men would become the hunting ground.

This would be a good answer to why there is a very Tall Wall made of Ice to protect the real of men (men who have no magical abilities both in its creation or its maintenance). It would also answer why it is made of Ice, the only material WW have power upon (as far as we know), they built it to keep their offerings in and separate from the rest of humans. It might not be very effective to keep the WW in or to build it so tall, but it does a very fine job of keeping the Wildlings in (As we saw during the story and this seemed to be the most organized attack in the history of Wildlings). Of course it would be completely OK for men to ENTER the north region (S->N) as it would make them fair game, but getting out (N->S) would be trickier.

It would also answer the question of "The Wall stays tall as long as NW stays true.. ". Well NW is not true anymore. Not because its members are breaking their vows or are killing their Lord commanders (the last two), because they let the Wildlings in.   

Also, I would say to me the whole "Winter is Coming" part of this current story did not make sense. WW seems to be OK with being on the other side of the wall, anybody who gets killed is in the North side of the wall and we hear of WW becoming more active as we hear the news of Wildlings organizing to get out. I never really saw the tension building up, unless the crossing of Wildlings from the Wall is the tension building action which would bring down the wall, erase the old solution, and call for a different balanced solution of ice and fire (or something like that). This whole tension building might be the true plan that COTF and BR have been executing all along. These are just speculations as this point.

What do you think?

 

Later Edit: someone said the same thing, although in a more abbreviated manner here: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/133317-wildlings-free-range-sacrifices/&page=2