Heresy 180

[Black Crow]

Not necessarily. Mel certainly speaks of the prophecy being written in those ancient books of Asshai, but the word written may be significant and the origin in Asshai simply reflecting literacy in those parts. We're told there was no writing in Westeros before the Andals and so, in theory no ancient books, just runic carvings. 

It occurs to me that the most likely answer to the question of that book which Roose Bolton pitched into the fire is that it may have been an antiquarian book on said runes, perhaps revealing the Westerosi version of the prophecy and incidentally thereby knocking the legs from under proclaiming Stan the Man as Azor Ahai.

[LordImp]

I have a little theory and i wonder what you people thinks about it.

 

Most likely Jon will turn out to be the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna , and therefore the union of Ice( Stark) and Fire ( Targ) . I think the main thing about this series is balance between ice and fire , just like in Star wars where it has to be balance in the force. 

 

So here is my idea. Jon will defeat the Nights King with fire , with valyrian steel , dragonglass and maybe a dragon. And after this he will take control of the WW and use them against Dany and will defeat her. So Jon will use both Ice and fire for the greater good.

[Beautiful Bloody Sword]

The first paragraph is certainly plausible. The second, I think that Jon will certainly need Dany and her dragons to even have a chance of defeating the Others. What happens after that I'm unsure of.

 

[TheButcherCrow]

There's a discussion over in the small questions section of the general forum about Waymar vs Craster's Boys in the GoT prologue. I won't get into the details but it reminded me of the fact that the fight in question is STILL the only time anyone or anything has crossed swords with a WW in the books.  Blinded by the shows Hardhome nonsense I had forgotten that fact.  Royce's blade was undoubtedly steel, I wonder what would have happened against an iron sword?

[Lady Dyanna]

There's a discussion over in the small questions section of the general forum about Waymar vs Craster's Boys in the GoT prologue. I won't get into the details but it reminded me of the fact that the fight in question is STILL the only time anyone or anything has crossed swords with a WW in the books.  Blinded by the shows Hardhome nonsense I had forgotten that fact.  Royce's blade was undoubtedly steel, I wonder what would have happened against an iron sword?

Either iron or Valyrian steel both remain as big question marks to me. If only because in the chapter where Mormont asked Craster about Waymar IIRC he mentioned Waymar's fancy BLACK sword.

[Voice]

I'm back baby !!!   Sooooo what's up y'all ?  A couple of things to start;

Hey! Good to see you TBC! Makes the new forum worth checking out.

[Voice]

Either iron or Valyrian steel both remain as big question marks to me. If only because in the chapter where Mormont asked Craster about Waymar IIRC he mentioned Waymar's fancy BLACK sword.

Or Bronze. Quite curious how the Others react to the original blades of the First Men.

[Black Crow]

Either iron or Valyrian steel both remain as big question marks to me. If only because in the chapter where Mormont asked Craster about Waymar IIRC he mentioned Waymar's fancy BLACK sword.

Black is actually the natural state for iron - needs an awful lot of polishing to be shiny white. A black sword isn't of itself unusual. In order to avoid all that polishing it can be chemically blacked - or as its known in the trade [usually gun related] blued. Ser Waymar, being a rich kid with expensive kit as described in the prologue could well have had a "castle-forged" steel sword with a blade blued black.

[Black Crow]

Or Bronze. Quite curious how the Others react to the original blades of the First Men.

Interesting point and worth remembering both that the Thenns use bronze weapons and armour and that Ser Waymar's father has bronze armour with runes.

There's also, in basic magical terms an interesting difference between bronze and iron in that the first is turned into weapons by smelting it and pouring the resulting amalgam into a mould, whereas iron and steel require to be "worked"

All of that said the practical difference in combat terms is that bronze will only produce short swords, daggers and spear-heads and won't take or hold an edge. Iron gives you stronger, longer and sharper weapons.

In all honesty in this we don't know how First Other would have fared if Ser Waymar had cut or stabbed him with cold iron, because he was outclassed and never landed a blow. First Other after all thought it worthwhile to wear armour.

[TheButcherCrow]

In all honesty in this we don't know how First Other would have fared if Ser Waymar had cut or stabbed him with cold iron, because he was outclassed and never landed a blow. First Other after all thought it worthwhile to wear armour.

 

Having read the prologue back (literally a minute ago), it would seem there is nothing special about the Others blade that causes Royce's blade to break, it's just the cold.  That the Others' blades are clearly (for want of a better phrase) "made of cold" is incidental, it is the temperature that shatters the steel, or at least it appears as if it is the authors intent to suggest the sword shattered because it was very cold.  I'm no metallurgist but I'm not a hundred percent sure that's how steel works ?  Not that it's terribly important, steel works however George wants in his world.

[wolfmaid7]

I have a little theory and i wonder what you people thinks about it.

 

Most likely Jon will turn out to be the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna , and therefore the union of Ice( Stark) and Fire ( Targ) . I think the main thing about this series is balance between ice and fire , just like in Star wars where it has to be balance in the force. 

 

So here is my idea. Jon will defeat the Nights King with fire , with valyrian steel , dragonglass and maybe a dragon. And after this he will take control of the WW and use them against Dany and will defeat her. So Jon will use both Ice and fire for the greater good.

I think things are a bit more complicated than that especially with regards to the whole ice and fire theme,which some people myself interpret a bit differently.These two components are to layered to be limited to a person.Song in this series can be conflict, it can be communication between two halves and it can mean union.It has been my belief that true balance in this series means a "natural" push and pull without external forces exacting influence.

I don't think Jon "is" the song of ice and fire because there isn't such a person.Only individuals that are part of a process that is old as time.So Jon's position in this is that he is a part of it and not "the it" that will pop,sparkle and exude the thing to make all work right.To me he'll be dark without being evil,a hero seen as a villain because he is needed to be.

What ever needs to happen with regards to the real war will takeplace off the field and away from regular eyes.

Not necessarily. Mel certainly speaks of the prophecy being written in those ancient books of Asshai, but the word written may be significant and the origin in Asshai simply reflecting literacy in those parts. We're told there was no writing in Westeros before the Andals and so, in theory no ancient books, just runic carvings. 

It occurs to me that the most likely answer to the question of that book which Roose Bolton pitched into the fire is that it may have been an antiquarian book on said runes, perhaps revealing the Westerosi version of the prophecy and incidentally thereby knocking the legs from under proclaiming Stan the Man as Azor Ahai.

Possibly,that's a thought.

[Black Crow]

 

Having read the prologue back (literally a minute ago), it would seem there is nothing special about the Others blade that causes Royce's blade to break, it's just the cold.  That the Others' blades are clearly (for want of a better phrase) "made of cold" is incidental, it is the temperature that shatters the steel, or at least it appears as if it is the authors intent to suggest the sword shattered because it was very cold.  I'm no metallurgist but I'm not a hundred percent sure that's how steel works ?  Not that it's terribly important, steel works however George wants in his world.

That's certainly how how I read it as well and  while I'm not a metallurgist either I do have a lurking recollection of some metals  breaking in extreme cold. I'd hate to be specific but as you say all it requires is that same nugget of useless information planted in GRRM's mind

[Black Crow]

Possibly,that's a thought.

Just to expand a little on the book. All we really know is that Roose found something important in it, which he read, inwardly digested and then destroyed to prevent anyone else discovering it.

We can reasonably conclude therefore that it was [a] something not generally known and useful to him. 

This actually narrows the options dramatically. We're not talking about some secret concerning the Targaryens and or their dragons. That's too recent to be known of only in an old book [somebody always tells] and irrelevant in that the last Dragonlord is way out east.

Baratheons? Unlikely given [a] he knows he's really dealing with the Lannisters and something in an old book isn't going to hurt them.

This latter point is the important bit. Something written in an old book isn't going to upset the balance of power in Westeros, yet whatever knowledge is revealed is going to have to be used by him, not proclaimed.

This suggests that its old knowledge about the Starks and about Winterfell and perhaps thereby the Prince in Winterfell.

[TheButcherCrow]

That's certainly how how I read it as well and  while I'm not a metallurgist either I do have a lurking recollection of some metals  breaking in extreme cold. I'd hate to be specific but as you say all it requires is that same nugget of useless information planted in GRRM's mind

I actually did a bit of research on this after I posted (bored. as. hell) and without going too deeply into "ductile to brittle temperature transition points", it would seem GRRM may have got this one spot on.  Obv it depends on the type of steel but a DBTTP of around -20 to -30c seems entirely plausible.   Anyway,  my curiosity was peaked with regard the martial prowess of the WW and I decided to take a look at the other (if you'll pardon the pun) fight between a WW and some humans, that is to say Puddles vs Small Paul, Sam & Grenn.  

1. It doesn't actually say that Puddles blade cut through Small Paul's chainmail, it says it, "slipped between the iron rings" and note, iron. Interesting.
2. The blade is not foolproof.  It gets stuck in Small Paul.
3. Puddles has not got disproportionate strength, Small Paul's weight pulls the blade from his hand.
4. Puddles ain't fucking around, not like the Others in the prologue.  Instead of a pointless fight he simply dodges and strikes.

Haven't really got any theories or anything, just thought I'd put this up for discussion.

[TheButcherCrow]

Just to expand a little on the book I think its worth expanding a little. All we really know is that Roose found something important in it, which he read, inwardly digested and then destroyed to prevent anyone else discovering it.

We can reasonably conclude therefore that it was [a] something not generally known and useful to him. 

This actually narrows the options dramatically. We're not talking about some secret concerning the Targaryens and or their dragons. That's too recent to be known of only in an old book [somebody always tells] and irrelevant in that the last Dragonlord is way out east.

Baratheons? Unlikely given [a] he knows he's really dealing with the Lannisters and something in an old book isn't going to hurt them.

This latter point is the important bit. Something written in an old book isn't going to upset the balance of power in Westeros, yet whatever knowledge is revealed is going to have to be used by him, not proclaimed.

This suggests that its old knowledge about the Starks and about Winterfell and perhaps thereby the Prince in Winterfell.

Pretty spot on.  If the knowledge in the book was something Roose wanted to tell people then he'd have kept the book, simple as that.  There is the other possibility, that the book didn't contain anything that Roose himself could use but that it contained knowledge Roose didn't want someone else to have. That is a fairly semantic distinction however.   

[Black Crow]

Pretty spot on.  If the knowledge in the book was something Roose wanted to tell people then he'd have kept the book, simple as that.  There is the other possibility, that the book didn't contain anything that Roose himself could use but that it contained knowledge Roose didn't want someone else to have. That is a fairly semantic distinction however.   

As you say it was the certainly knowledge rather than the proof which was important and that in turn means that Roose wanted to act or at least have the option to act accordingly. Whether he was then deliberately destroying or casually discarding the book is probably where the semantics come in.

And that still comes back to the thought that there was some deep rather than political knowledge in there, which may have meant nothing to the original compiler.

[TheButcherCrow]

As you say it was the certainly knowledge rather than the proof which was important and that in turn means that Roose wanted to act or at least have the option to act accordingly. Whether he was then deliberately destroying or casually discarding the book is probably where the semantics come in.

And that still comes back to the thought that there was some deep rather than political knowledge in there, which may have meant nothing to the original compiler.

Well actually I meant more that keeping useful knowledge to yourself or denying useful knowledge to an enemy amounts to the same thing, a tactical advantage. It could not, however, be less important

I think the notion that the book contains deeper knowledge is a seductive one and it is certainly an attractive proposition to have a character who for all the world looks like he is playing the game of thrones but is in fact part of the song.  The more i think about it, the more I feel like Roose might have some sort of connection to a group/religion that venerates the WW as gods.  Surely some sort of cult or sect must have (well I say "must" but only really if George decrees it but it does seem logical and plausible) sprung up.  Fuck, for all we know maybe some northern houses actually gave children to the WW in a quid pro quo arrangement similar to Craster's ? 

[aDanceWithFlagons]

 

Having read the prologue back (literally a minute ago), it would seem there is nothing special about the Others blade that causes Royce's blade to break, it's just the cold.  That the Others' blades are clearly (for want of a better phrase) "made of cold" is incidental, it is the temperature that shatters the steel, or at least it appears as if it is the authors intent to suggest the sword shattered because it was very cold.  I'm no metallurgist but I'm not a hundred percent sure that's how steel works ?  Not that it's terribly important, steel works however George wants in his world.

Interesting point and worth remembering both that the Thenns use bronze weapons and armour and that Ser Waymar's father has bronze armour with runes.

There's also, in basic magical terms an interesting difference between bronze and iron in that the first is turned into weapons by smelting it and pouring the resulting amalgam into a mould, whereas iron and steel require to be "worked"

All of that said the practical difference in combat terms is that bronze will only produce short swords, daggers and spear-heads and won't take or hold an edge. Iron gives you stronger, longer and sharper weapons.

In all honesty in this we don't know how First Other would have fared if Ser Waymar had cut or stabbed him with cold iron, because he was outclassed and never landed a blow. First Other after all thought it worthwhile to wear armour.

 

Having read the prologue back (literally a minute ago), it would seem there is nothing special about the Others blade that causes Royce's blade to break, it's just the cold.  That the Others' blades are clearly (for want of a better phrase) "made of cold" is incidental, it is the temperature that shatters the steel, or at least it appears as if it is the authors intent to suggest the sword shattered because it was very cold.  I'm no metallurgist but I'm not a hundred percent sure that's how steel works ?  Not that it's terribly important, steel works however George wants in his world.

Waymar's sword is steel, yet the sword does give the Other pause. What interests me is the other Others who were watching the fight did not move in for the kill until the sword was broken.

"The watchers moved forward together, as if some signal had been given."

The signal seems to be the broken sword. Afterward, when Waymar rises as a wight, the eye pierced with a sword shard is dead white. Not blue like the other eye.

Btw, welcome back TheBucherCrow.

[Black Crow]

I think its simply down to the Alpha male sizing up his opponent. The rest of the pack watches him, then rush in to share the kill.

[Black Crow]

Well actually I meant more that keeping useful knowledge to yourself or denying useful knowledge to an enemy amounts to the same thing, a tactical advantage. It could not, however, be less important

I think the notion that the book contains deeper knowledge is a seductive one and it is certainly an attractive proposition to have a character who for all the world looks like he is playing the game of thrones but is in fact part of the song.  The more i think about it, the more I feel like Roose might have some sort of connection to a group/religion that venerates the WW as gods.  Surely some sort of cult or sect must have (well I say "must" but only really if George decrees it but it does seem logical and plausible) sprung up.  Fuck, for all we know maybe some northern houses actually gave children to the WW in a quid pro quo arrangement similar to Craster's ? 

It might be semantics as to whether Roose is intending to use what he's learned or to deny it to others, but as to the denial that would depend on whether the knowledge might be used by someone else perhaps to Roose's disadvantage.

If, speaking very hypothetically [and it is hypothetical since the situation doesn't arise at this point], the book was a treatise on the care, feeding and slaying of dragons, then conceivably Roose may find it advantageous to be the only guy in town who knows how to do it and thus save the day and the princess to go with it.

So what else is going to help Roose? He wants the North. He's shown no interest in anything else so presumably the knowledge relates to that.In the past we've discussed the possibility that the Boltons may be an offshoot of the Starks and perhaps even descended of the Nights King, but if it were so I really don't see it coming as a revelation in a book. There's something else in there about power rather than remembrance and more than likely of use only to a Northerner who knows how to fill in the blanks, hence the suggestion as to deep knowledge and ultimately Roose playing to the song rather than the throne.