Anyone Besides Me Disturbed by Dany's Age

[Le Cygne]

No denying Dany's age is a BIG problem.

Nevertheless, Sansa is around that age and has already sexual feelings, and Arianne started her sexual life at 14.

While Dany's situation was terrible (independently from the age she was), Martin has no shame of acknowledge that teens are very sexually aware.

Yeah, I think most of us would prefer he set the ages of the younger characters a couple years older. But there's no denying, Dany is enjoying herself. She's riding Drogo fiercely under the night sky. She looks back and says the first night was exciting. And that she was never happier than when she was lying in his arms at night.

[Queen of Thornes]

I always sigh deeply when this topic comes up.

This is essentially judging a culture (albeit a made-up culture) by concepts of consenting age in a modern, western world grounded as it is on a primarily judeo-christian religious code.

There are many cultures where girls are married off at very young ages. In some countries, recognition of cultural differences leads to consent ages as low as 14. I may balk at it but its not my culture. Consent is placed at 16 yrs in my country.

GRRM was also reflecting in some ways an aspect of medival culture. People married earlier. They also had much a shorter life expectancy on the whole. Waiting till 30 to marry was like waiting till 65 in our times. You practically had one foot in the grave at 29 in medival times.

I just cannot work up outrage at Dany being 12 or 13 when she marries Drogo. At most I can do a mild "Ugh!".

[GwynBleiddRaven]

As mentioned couple of times Daenerys was past 13 and yes it makes a difference in medieval scenario but even for todays standards.

In many European countries  (e.g. Germany, Czech Rep., Italy) the age of consent is 14. 

And the age of sexual initiation is constantly dropping. Ir's not unusual today for kids to be sexually active at 14. 

Still I agree that graphic descriptions of such contacts could be disturbing.

But GRRM wants to be disturbing.

[ChillyPolly]

And before the erotic gender became so mainstream, many stories talked about sexual awakenings. Mostly fairy tales, for instance. I already mentioned Beauty and the Beast: is a tale about not fearing sex because sex can be pleasurable. Rapunzel is not about a girl being captive: it's a story about what happens when you try to stop young people from being sexual and chastise them (they find it anyway); and Snow White is not about a girl who went to live with seven dwarves: it's the conflict of becoming old and the fear of being replaced by a younger fertile girl. When SN is awakening by the Prince, he's not assaulting her: he's acknowledging her as what the Queen feared the most: a sexual rival to replace her in her duties of Queenship (a Queen's duty is to procreate an heir).

So, labelling these stories as "it's rape!" and be simplistic (and literal) about them is insulting to the only way many women had to feel sexual and sexually awake and not being shamed for being sexual beings.

I don't agree with much if any of this.  Labeling these stories as "it's rape" may indeed be simplistic, but it is certainly not literal, since these stories contain no rape.  I won't say Beauty and the Beast has nothing to do with sex, because it is after all about a girl's marriage choices; but I don't believe for a minute that Beauty and the Beast is about how the sex act itself is something a girl needs to learn to like, or about overcoming the sex-phobia that Beauty does not seem to have.  Snow White is indeed about a vain jealous older woman, but of course it is also about a girl who goes to live with seven dwarfs - one does not rule out the other.  When Snow White is awakened by the Prince, he neither assaults her physically or metaphorically, but neither does he acknowledge her as a sexual rival to the Queen.  The Prince and the Queen never had any interest in each other.  Rapunzel is indeed about a girl being held captive; and yes it is about her finding love, sex, marriage and children in spite of this; but I don't believe for a minute that it is about how parents should not try to discourage their young daughters from boinking any man who passes by.  

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

So this is all getting really gross...JonCon's Red Beard, I understand what you're saying and I'm actually a huge Kushiel's Dart fan so I totally get the idea of being empowered by sexual submission etc. But while I understand the symbolism and purpose, and in fact usually refrain from complaining about this aspect of Dany's storyline *because* I understand the literary purpose, it's still really problematic for me.

I find Dany's scenes with Drogo WAY different than Jon's scenes with Ygritte. Jon, as you say, is basically forced to do something he actually totally wants to do and learns a lot about himself and life in the process.

But I get no indication from Dany that she actually wants to boink Drogo. As someone upthread commented, the wedding night seduction really takes me out of the story b/c I'm just thinking, "WTF, really?"  And, really, sexually liberating a 13 yo by force? Not ok. Not literally, not symbolically, just not ok, in any time period. And the fact that their wedding night is supposed to be romantic just makes me want to gag every time I think about it.

The Sansa/Hound thing is also way different. I actually do not interpret their relationship to be romantic, but Sansa does absolutely attach budding sexual feelings to memories of the Hound, and if they meet again and I'm wrong and it's all romantic, fine. No problem. She'll be at least 15 by then and has had enough life experience to count as a medieval adult IMO.

I know GRRM is influenced by romance and erotica, and to a point that's great, but those genres, despite being often by and for women, still absorb and reflect some extremely problematic cultural views about women.

The whole concept of the bodice-ripper, that women are sexually repressed and want to be liberated by force, plays straight into rape culture. It's not a message that needs to get reiterated and reinforced and dressed up as romance.

 

[ChillyPolly]

As mentioned couple of times Daenerys was past 13 and yes it makes a difference in medieval scenario but even for todays standards.

In many European countries  (e.g. Germany, Czech Rep., Italy) the age of consent is 14. 

And the age of sexual initiation is constantly dropping. Ir's not unusual today for kids to be sexually active at 14. 

Still I agree that graphic descriptions of such contacts could be disturbing.

But GRRM wants to be disturbing.

Yes, modernity is all about throwing aside the conventions and standards of the past.  But this only goes to show that this issue has little if anything to do with medieval standards.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

 

I find Dany's scenes with Drogo WAY different than Jon's scenes with Ygritte. Jon, as you say, is basically forced to do something he actually totally wants to do and learns a lot about himself and life in the process.

 

 

My question would be why you find them different. Because, really, why?

Jon is practically forced into a culture he's a foreign too, and he has made clear that he does want to live a life he has chosen: celibacy. He doesn't want Ygritte as a wife at first, and he feels he's betraying his vows by this. He doesn't want that sex to happen and once  happen, despite he starts to enjoy it and love Ygritte, he feels guilty.

Also, if he refuses Ygritte, he is under danger of being killed. He doesn't know Ygritte and he doesn't know what could happen to him if he says "no". In any case, had he, for whatever reason, not fallen in love with her and eventually refused him, he could have been killed by other wildlings.

So, Jon was always under threat.

That's why I brought the example of Outlander, because it' the same situation with the opposite genders: Claire is attracted to Jamie Fraser, but she doesn't want to be married to her and she doesn't want the sex happening until the very end of the culmination of their wedding and that still makes her feel guilty. And she knows if she doesn't have such sex, she can get killed. The fact that Jamie and Ygritte end up being good people and get loved in return is meaningless because neither Claire and Jon know this. They only know that, if they don't agree in the conditions put by others about them having sex with who are practically strangers, they are in danger.

For the three of them (Jon, Dany and Claire) is sex happening in circumstances neither of them can't control and can't avoid, despite they are, at first, attracted to the other person. The only difference is that, unlike Jon and Claire, Dany never feels guilty later.

But I get no indication from Dany that she actually wants to boink Drogo. As someone upthread commented, the wedding night seduction really takes me out of the story b/c I'm just thinking, "WTF, really?"  And, really, sexually liberating a 13 yo by force? Not ok. Not literally, not symbolically, just not ok, in any time period. And the fact that their wedding night is supposed to be romantic just makes me want to gag every time I think about it.

The Sansa/Hound thing is also way different. I actually do not interpret their relationship to be romantic, but Sansa does absolutely attach budding sexual feelings to memories of the Hound, and if they meet again and I'm wrong and it's all romantic, fine. No problem. She'll be at least 15 by then and has had enough life experience to count as a medieval adult IMO.

I know GRRM is influenced by romance and erotica, and to a point that's great, but those genres, despite being often by and for women, still absorb and reflect some extremely problematic cultural views about women.

The whole concept of the bodice-ripper, that women are sexually repressed and want to be liberated by force, plays straight into rape culture. It's not a message that needs to get reiterated and reinforced and dressed up as romance.

 

Calling the romantic/erotic genre "bodice-ripper" is the problem of the situation. Judging the whole erotica genre by some bad stories with Fabio on the cover is like saying that all Action genre is like any Transformers movie.

No woman gets "liberated by force" in such stories (the good stories, I mean), that's where the misconception happens: people believe that and they are wrong because, as it's a genre mostly focused for women, they interpret it totally wrong and belittle them. "Oh, it's a book about women wanting to get fucked and raped... how silly and wrong". Do you actually believe that women from older ages in which they were forced to marriages and lived in repressive societies wanted to be raped and fantasied about it? Please.

I guess, you're not getting the point I'm making about the genre. The sex isn't liberating: the sex is symbolic for the rebellion, the excuse for the female characters to show their own independence against a society that puts them down and call their desires "wrong" or "problematic", which is exactly what you are doing. Why you think the genre is so popular both now and before?  Because it speaks to women and tells them what they feel is right and no one should judge them, which you are, again, doing.

Men in these stories simply represent that forbidden thing they shouldn't have: lust. A good writer knows how to make both characters show desire to each other and let the reader know VERY CLEAR they both want each other even if they don't say it with words. If women at first refuse is due to their own sexual ideas about how sex is wrong and nasty, until they enjoy it and realise sex is natural, normal and shouldn't be shamed by wanting it.

Calling "gross" to the only way many women have access to live their own fantasies is very disrespectful.

In any case, if anyone wants to call the whole erotica genre romanticising of rape, go ahead. But, also do the same about Martin and how he wrote certain scenes and be consequent and drop his books. He has taken a lot of elements from Gabaldon and she's called rape apologist a lot, as well as Outlander often gets the "rape culture" criticism by many feminists.

 

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

 

My question would be why you find them different. Because, really, why?

Jon is practically forced into a culture he's a foreign too, and he has made clear that he does want to live a life he has chosen: celibacy. He doesn't want Ygritte as a wife at first, and he feels he's betraying his vows by this. He doesn't want that sex to happen and once  happen, despite he starts to enjoy it and love Ygritte, he feels guilty.

Also, if he refuses Ygritte, he is under danger of being killed. He doesn't know Ygritte and he doesn't know what could happen to him if he says "no". In any case, had he, for whatever reason, not fallen in love with her and eventually refused him, he could have been killed by other wildlings.

So, Jon was always under threat.

That's why I brought the example of Outlander, because it' the same situation with the opposite genders: Claire is attracted to Jamie Fraser, but she doesn't want to be married to her and she doesn't want the sex happening until the very end of the culmination of their wedding and that still makes her feel guilty. And she knows if she doesn't have such sex, she can get killed. The fact that Jamie and Ygritte end up being good people and get loved in return is meaningless because neither Claire and Jon know this. They only know that, if they don't agree in the conditions put by others about them having sex with who are practically strangers, they are in danger.

For the three of them (Jon, Dany and Claire) is sex happening in circumstances neither of them can't control and can't avoid, despite they are, at first, attracted to the other person. The only difference is that, unlike Jon and Claire, Dany never feels guilty later.

Calling the romantic/erotic genre "bodice-ripper" is the problem of the situation. Judging the whole erotica genre by some bad stories with Fabio on the cover is like saying that all Action genre is like any Transformers movie.

No woman gets "liberated by force" in such stories (the good stories, I mean), that's where the misconception happens: people believe that and they are wrong because, as it's a genre mostly focused for women, they interpret it totally wrong and belittle them. "Oh, it's a book about women wanting to get fucked and raped... how silly and wrong". Do you actually believe that women from older ages in which they were forced to marriages and lived in repressive societies wanted to be raped and fantasied about it?

I guess, you're not getting the point I'm making about the genre. The sex isn't liberating: the sex is symbolic for the rebellion, the excuse for the female characters to show their own independence against a society that puts them down and call their desires "wrong" or "problematic", which is exactly what you are doing. Why you think the genre is so popular both now and before?  Because it speaks to women and tells them what they feel is right and no one should judge them, which you are, again, doing.

Men in these stories simply represent that forbidden thing they shouldn't have: lust. A good writer knows how to make both characters show desire to each other and let the reader know VERY CLEAR they both want each other even if they don't say it with words. If women at first refuse is due to their own sexual ideas about how sex is wrong and nasty, until they enjoy it and realise sex is natural, normal and shouldn't be shamed by wanting it.

Calling "gross" to the only way many women have access to live their own fantasies is very disrespectful.

 

Ok, I think we're talking past each other. 

I am extremely sex-positive and think every lady should have (and read about) as much bow-chicka-wow-wow as she wants. I'm not personally into the romance genre that much but seriously all power to the ladies who enjoy it and those who make big bucks off of it. Anyone who wants to trash Romance in general around me will get an earfull.  

My issue is with the specific situation of a young girl being forced into sex with an older man and that being portrayed as romantic.

Of-age woman with any age of man? Awesome.

Kinky bondage? Awesome. 

Two dudes? Two ladies? Roleplay? Older woman/younger (of age) guy? The milkmaid and the duke? The stableboy and the princess? Awesome awesome awesome. Get it, girl.

Thing is, with Dany, we have zero hint that she is opposed to Drogo because she thinks sex is wrong. We do have multiple things pointing to her not wanting to have sex with Drogo because *she is a child.* Because she is a child. Viserys and Illyrio both know this, and they both push forward with the marriage for their own ends. Whatever year it is, 13 is a child--or at least not an adult.  Whatever 28yo Claire with younger Jaime or 16yo Jon with max-20yo Ygritte do is totally beside the point here. 

Jon was never afraid of Ygritte. Ygritte didn't physically lay a hand on him until he said ok. And yes, circumstances were coercive, but the entire reason his life depended on him having sex with Ygritte was because all of the Wildlings could see that they were both attracted to each other and the only logical reason he would not get busy with her would be because he was still trying to follow his Night's Watch vows. 

I'm not using the term "bodice-rippers" to refer to the whole genre of romance. I'm using it to refer to non-con situations--situations where the man wants the woman but neither he nor the reader gets a hint that she wants him. (As with Dany's wedding, until the extremely forced and rather unbelievable "yes" moment.) And honestly if it's non-con being written by a woman I don't even mind that much; I assume she's exploring her own fantasies for fun and profit, so no problem. But GRRM is not a woman and, fair or not, that changes the situation. He's not writing about an avatar of himself, he's writing about someone he is attracted to, and that changes the game.

 

[ChillyPolly]

Calling "gross" to the only way many women have access to live their own fantasies is very disrespectful.

Then no-one can ever call anything "gross" for fear that someone else will think it is sexy.

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

Which, PS, I have issues with Outlander on similar grounds. By the latter part of the book Jaime is the one being forced into stuff-violently, graphically--and this is presented in a highly sexualized way. I take a lot of issue with that. 

[JonCon's Red Beard]

 And honestly if it's non-con being written by a woman I don't even mind that much; I assume she's exploring her own fantasies for fun and profit, so no problem. But GRRM is not a woman and, fair or not, that changes the situation. He's not writing about an avatar of himself, he's writing about someone he is attracted to, and that changes the game.

 

He's friends with Gabaldon, though.

Looks like you're not taking her seriously because those are "her fantasies". How you know these aren't Martin's too? Also, "for fun" sounds like you think she decided to write about sex because "lol". She's telling a story as much as Martin is doing it. The fact it includes sex as a main point shouldn't be a factor for believin her books are less than ASOIAF because they are written "by a man".

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

Basically, if you want to write about an avatar of yourself having any sexual situation you feel like writing about, well and good; but writing about a character you're attracted to requires a certain amount of respect to be ok in my book.

[Le Cygne]

Let's see, indication Dany wants to have sex with Drogo.

She tells us point blank she was excited the first time. So since it's her story, we should certainly listen to her, or read another story.

He put his finger under her chin and lifted her head, so she was looking up into his eyes. Drogo towered over her as he towered over everyone. Taking her lightly under the arms, he lifted her and seated her on a rounded rock beside the stream. Then he sat on the ground facing her, legs crossed beneath him, their faces finally at a height. "No," he said.

"Is that the only word you know?" she asked him.

Drogo did not reply. His long heavy braid was coiled in the dirt beside him. He pulled it over his right shoulder and began to remove the bells from his hair, one by one. After a moment Dany leaned forward to help. When they were done, Drogo gestured. She understood. Slowly, carefully, she began to undo his braid.

It took a long time. All the while he sat there silently, watching her. When she was done, he shook his head, and his hair spread out behind him like a river of darkness, oiled and gleaming. She had never seen hair so long, so black, so thick...

After a while he began to touch her. Lightly at first, then harder. She could sense the fierce strength in his hands, but he never hurt her. He held her hand in his own and brushed her fingers, one by one. He ran a hand gently down her leg. He stroked her face, tracing the curve of her ears, running a finger gently around her mouth. He put both hands in her hair and combed it with his fingers. He turned her around, massaged her shoulders, slid a knuckle down the path of her spine.

It seemed as if hours passed before his hands finally went to her breasts. He stroked the soft skin underneath until it tingled. He circled her nipples with his thumbs, pinched them between thumb and forefinger, then began to pull at her, very lightly at first, then more insistently, until her nipples stiffened and began to ache.

He stopped then, and drew her down onto his lap. Dany was flushed and breathless, her heart fluttering in her chest. He cupped her face in his huge hands and looked into his eyes. "No?" he said, and she knew it was a question.

She took his hand and moved it down to the wetness between her thighs. "Yes," she whispered as she put his finger inside her.

Later:

Khal Drogo followed her out into the moonlight, the bells in his hair tinkling softly. A few yards from her tent was a bed of soft grass, and it was there that Dany drew him down. When he tried to turn her over, she put a hand on his chest. "No," she said. "This night I would look on your face."

There is no privacy in the heart of the khalasar. Dany felt the eyes on her as she undressed him, heard the soft voices as she did the things that Doreah had told her to do. It was nothing to her. Was she not khaleesi? His were the only eyes that mattered, and when she mounted him she saw something there that she had never seen before. She rode him as fiercely as ever she had ridden her silver, and when the moment of his pleasure came, Khal Drogo called out her name.

And later:

His skin shone dark as bronze in the ruddy light from the brazier, the faint lines of old scars visible on his broad chest. Ink-black hair, loose and unbound, cascaded over his shoulders and down his back, well past his waist. His manhood glistened wetly. The khal's mouth twisted in a frown beneath the droop of his long mustachio. "The stallion who mounts the world has no need of iron chairs."

Dany propped herself on an elbow to look up at him, so tall and magnificent. She loved his hair especially. It had never been cut; he had never known defeat. "It was prophesied that the stallion will ride to the ends of the earth," she said.

She seems to dig him...

[ChillyPolly]

He's friends with Gabaldon, though.

Looks like you're not taking her seriously because those are "her fantasies". How you know these aren't Martin's too? Also, "for fun" sounds like you think she decided to write about sex because "lol". She's telling a story as much as Martin is doing it. The fact it includes sex as a main point shouldn't be a factor for believin her books are less than ASOIAF because they are written "by a man".

Actually, I'm conservative enough not to care much either way.  I think both authors should behave themselves, and I don't see much value to pornographic rape-fiction, regardless of whether a man or a woman writes it.  I don't subscribe to the "whatever gets you off is good" school of artistic value.  

Similarly, I think men should not commit rape, regardless of whether they know, or think they know, that women generally, or their victims in particular, are going to secretly enjoy getting raped.  Whether we're discussing value of art or real-life conduct, whether folks get off on things should not be the be-all and end-all. 

[Le Cygne]

He's friends with Gabaldon, though.

Looks like you're not taking her seriously because those are "her fantasies". How you know these aren't Martin's too? Also, "for fun" sounds like you think she decided to write about sex because "lol". She's telling a story as much as Martin is doing it. The fact it includes sex as a main point shouldn't be a factor for believin her books are less than ASOIAF because they are written "by a man".

Yeah, good authors write about many viewpoints, not just their own. Just wanted to mention that she says she's more like Jamie than Claire. And she's not standing in for either one, she's writing a STORY. Just like GRRM.

[Woman of War]

 

But I get no indication from Dany that she actually wants to boink Drogo. As someone upthread commented, the wedding night seduction really takes me out of the story b/c I'm just thinking, "WTF, really?"  And, really, sexually liberating a 13 yo by force? Not ok. Not literally, not symbolically, just not ok, in any time period. And the fact that their wedding night is supposed to be romantic just makes me want to gag every time I think about it.

........

The whole concept of the bodice-ripper, that women are sexually repressed and want to be liberated by force, plays straight into rape culture. It's not a message that needs to get reiterated and reinforced and dressed up as romance.

 

The whole concept tells that, even concerning their own body, women don't know what they really want. Someone else knows better. That it takes an older and more experienced man to teach them what to desire, if  violence is needed it's only fot their best. Like fixating a small child on a dentist's chair, for his or her own sake.

Young girls deciding to accept themselves as sexual beings because they are left no choice to decide against it is no sexual freedom. Like coming  to terms with vegetables being not so bad - they are wonderful actually - because your parents refuse to feed you meat, as opposed to finding out on your own  hat veggies  are a great culinary experience.

Sorry, but the whole initiation by force through  some guy who knows better topic is not one of empowering. It can indeed easily play into rape culture.

As I wrote above, I am certainly not against drastic depictions of rape, child abuse or torture in literature or movies , and certainly not in a fictional setting where these horrors so much determine the plot. But I dislike the sugarcoating of violence by romanticising the feelings of the victim. The victim, yes. There may be a dichtonomy between the attacker's emotions and the victim's. Martin wonderfully managed to describe this in the Sandor's knife at Sansa's throat scene after Blackwater. All that has a totally different emotional meaning within Sandor's story than it has within Sansa's, highly believable and greatly  written, basically two opposed POV's in one. And, just as good, Dany's active way of coming to terms with her fate is absolutely in character. But, sorry, Dany desiring Drogo in the first night does not convince me as literature.

 

 

[Le Cygne]

Agree, but in literature, I'd say that 99% of the times a man is with a sword-like object close to a lady, the meaning is sex.

GRRM uses the symbolism this way with Jaime/Brienne, Sansa/Sandor, Jon/Ygritte, Asha/Qarl, and Dany/Daario, and also with Dunk/Rohanne, and others. Here's an illustration:

http://outlander-starz.tumblr.com/post/96236004351/this-actually-sums-up-their-marriage-pretty-well

Sandor making Sansa sing -> she caresses his face, wishes he was there, pretends they kissed, then...

Tyrion making her strip and groping her breast -> dreams of Sandor in bed with her instead of Tyrion

[Lady Fishbiscuit]

Basically, everything that @Blind Beth the Cat Lady said. 

Its not about repression and liberation or that women or young girls shouldn't be criticised for having sexual feelings and urges. It's not even about the fact that drogo had sex with Dany when she was 13. It's about

1 - How it is written.  The reader sees a 30 year old man having sex with a very innocent 13 year old girl told as a romantic / erotic experience from her point of view.

2 - The notion of an innocent 13 year old child, not just accepting but actually desiring sex with this huge man she just met for the 2nd time ever who has barely spoken to her.  

Imagine one of your friends telling you in great detail about having sex 13 year old girl and saying "but it's ok, I fondled her for a bit and then she really wanted me to". Doesn't make it any less disturbing and that's not because of modern standards, it's because she is a child and a child shouldn't be seen as sexual.

[devilish]

There's nothing disturbing considering the medieval standards

[devilish]

Basically, everything that @Blind Beth the Cat Lady said. 

Its not about repression and liberation or that women or young girls shouldn't be criticised for having sexual feelings and urges. It's not even about the fact that drogo had sex with Dany when she was 13. It's about

1 - How it is written.  The reader sees a 30 year old man having sex with a very innocent 13 year old girl told as a romantic / erotic experience from her point of view.

2 - The notion of an innocent 13 year old child, not just accepting but actually desiring sex with this huge man she just met for the 2nd time ever who has barely spoken to her.  

Imagine one of your friends telling you in great detail about having sex 13 year old girl and saying "but it's ok, I fondled her for a bit and then she really wanted me to". Doesn't make it any less disturbing and that's not because of modern standards, it's because she is a child and a child shouldn't be seen as sexual.

It is by modern standards though. Kings and even holy men married girls way beyond their age