Manhole Eunuchsbane Posted November 21, 2015 Share Posted November 21, 2015 You live in the Bay Area. Having spent most of my life there, I don't know that I knew any Catholics.Yeah, I guess that might have something to do with it. Do you find it's more prevalent in other parts of the country? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daemrion Posted November 21, 2015 Share Posted November 21, 2015 And The Old Testament is quite clear on slavery too.Leviticus 25: 44-46:Both thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids.Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession.And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession; they shall be your bondmen for ever: but over your brethren the children of Israel, ye shall not rule one over another with rigour.How many Jews (or Christians who appeal to The Old Testament) advocate slavery these days?I would hope none because Christians should have read Paul's letter to Philemon and understood what it means. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterbound Posted November 21, 2015 Share Posted November 21, 2015 Ser Scot,One, Muslims in the U.S. somehow seem to make it work. Two, I was going to state something similar to what Ormond stated. Basically, that Muslims who live in strict Islamic countries would think that women and men should be separate, with women in a subservient role, and that Islam and the west are incompatible.I also find it odd that Christianity gets credit for womens' advancement. How many female Catholic priests are there? Or women preachers of any kind? Not many, if any. Western society has arrived where it is today, not because of Christianity, but because they took on and battled Christianity.When you 'take on and battle ' Islam you are deemed a bigot. The world is no longer in a place to successfully battle a religious idea anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonesy Posted November 21, 2015 Share Posted November 21, 2015 Manhole, yes I do. Even in California. The Catholic presence within and south of San Jose goes all the way down.And I can't think of anywhere I've been in the states where there wasn't a Catholic church. Tombstone? Capitola? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gears of the Beast Posted November 21, 2015 Share Posted November 21, 2015 When you 'take on and battle ' Islam you are deemed a bigot. The world is no longer in a place to successfully battle a religious idea anymore.Pretty rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jo498 Posted November 21, 2015 Share Posted November 21, 2015 He talks about the sense of Destiny among Muslims that Islam's supremicy is the end point of history and that some, not all, view the West's rise as little different from the Mongol invasions that ended the Abassid Caliphate. But isn't a dominant position in the West that the military and cultural supremacy of the capitalist west and its current values are some kind of historical end point as well (or if the end point are cyborgs or whatever at least a necessary stage)? Small wonder that they are clashing if their attitudes are so similar... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted November 21, 2015 Author Share Posted November 21, 2015 But isn't a dominant position in the West that the military and cultural supremacy of the capitalist west and its current values are some kind of historical end point as well (or if the end point are cyborgs or whatever at least a necessary stage)? Small wonder that they are clashing if their attitudes are so similar...Jo,Indeed. I hated, hated Francis Fukyama's thesis for The End of History and The Last Man. I found it chauvinistic in the extreme. The problem Mr. Ansary identifies is that some aspects of both cultures are incompatable and as such must be set aside. The process of setting aside is usually unpleasant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enguerrand Posted November 21, 2015 Share Posted November 21, 2015 Does he have a point is Islamic culture fundamentally incompatible with modernity as it is seen in the West?Not anymore then say Christianity. Christians have persecuted and slaughtered unbelievers for thousands of years as well. The difference is that through civilization Christians been forced to accept that their religion isn't real. That the bible is a fairy tale, and the stoning of gays etc isn't what God wants and while they hope for a paradise, they don't have the faith in it, hence few have a desire to die doing Gods work.Most Muslim however are like Christians have been throughout most of history. They believe they get to heaven spreading God's power and that the Koran is God's actual commandments that they are to obey to the best of their understanding.If they had no refuge outside western civilization they quickly would, and many become quasi-religious as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fallen Posted November 21, 2015 Share Posted November 21, 2015 When you 'take on and battle ' Islam you are deemed a bigot. The world is no longer in a place to successfully battle a religious idea anymore.Well, the "take on and battle" was more figurative than literal. It was also done from the inside. Had a different culture attempted to invade Europe to free it of it's Christianity problem how do you think that would've played out? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maarsen Posted November 21, 2015 Share Posted November 21, 2015 The same arguments keep getting recycled decade after decade. All that changes is the culture or group that is identified as being unable to adapt to 'western' society. I was born and raise in 'western' society. If you took someone from the era when I was born (1956) and plopped him or her into our 21st century milieu, I can guarantee that they would have more of a culture shock than any Syrian refugee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted November 21, 2015 Author Share Posted November 21, 2015 Marsaan,This argument is coming from a secular Muslim. Which is why I found it interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maarsen Posted November 21, 2015 Share Posted November 21, 2015 Culture is a tool and as the work we need to do changes, so do the tools we use. Some of us find it hard to like the music kids listen to or the movies they watch, or even the games they play. Us old farts die off and the world and the culture changes. As long as you are prepared to wait and don't want everything in a rush, cultures will adapt. They always have and always will Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted November 21, 2015 Author Share Posted November 21, 2015 Marsaan,Yes, cultures will adapt. However, we do not know what form that adaptation will take until it is on top of us. I think Ansary's point is that it may not be moving in the manner many or even most in the West would prefer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maya Mia Posted November 21, 2015 Share Posted November 21, 2015 I know that's the number that gets thrown around, but I swear I know like 2 Catholics, and both of them are reformed. Growing up in Western PA, I knew only one person who wasn't Catholic. As an adult, I met others, but the vast majority of middle class, in the part of town I lived in was Catholic.When I moved South, there are less Catholics, although there still are some.Also, why do people separate Catholics from Christians? I see that mentioned a bit, and it's always surprising. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterbound Posted November 21, 2015 Share Posted November 21, 2015 Well, the "take on and battle" was more figurative than literal. It was also done from the inside. Had a different culture attempted to invade Europe to free it of it's Christianity problem how do you think that would've played out?You are familiar with pretty much every war that changed the course of Christianity, right?And play out? The way it did in the past. Pretty will for the Muslims in the beginning, but ending shitty due to their inability to adapt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterbound Posted November 21, 2015 Share Posted November 21, 2015 The same arguments keep getting recycled decade after decade. All that changes is the culture or group that is identified as being unable to adapt to 'western' society. I was born and raise in 'western' society. If you took someone from the era when I was born (1956) and plopped him or her into our 21st century milieu, I can guarantee that they would have more of a culture shock than any Syrian refugee. Maybe with regards to technology, but there are still large portions of america that look a lot like they did in 1956. Not sure what part of the states you are from, but pretty much anywhere in the midwest, and large parts of the south are pretty much time locked in the 50's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maarsen Posted November 21, 2015 Share Posted November 21, 2015 Maybe with regards to technology, but there are still large portions of america that look a lot like they did in 1956. Not sure what part of the states you are from, but pretty much anywhere in the midwest, and large parts of the south are pretty much time locked in the 50's. The States??? Bite your tongue! I am Canadian! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maarsen Posted November 21, 2015 Share Posted November 21, 2015 Marsaan,Yes, cultures will adapt. However, we do not know what form that adaptation will take until it is on top of us. I think Ansary's point is that it may not be moving in the manner many or even most in the West would prefer.Does it ever? My grandparents would have been horrified at our modern world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterbound Posted November 21, 2015 Share Posted November 21, 2015 The States??? Bite your tongue! I am Canadian!More's the pity But I'm sure there's large rural parts of our well behaved upstairs neighbor that fall into the same realm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castel Posted November 21, 2015 Share Posted November 21, 2015 You are familiar with pretty much every war that changed the course of Christianity, right?And play out? The way it did in the past. Pretty will for the Muslims in the beginning, but ending shitty due to their inability to adapt. Sure, if "the end" is hundreds or thousands of years later, and between three to six kingdoms after whoever took the land. Which set of Muslims had the inability to adapt? The ones that got the lands, the ones (not necessarily even culturally similar) that took it or the ones today that we think we know and are imagining will be in their place? I don't even know what you could say about such a thing. I like little pieces. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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