Islam and the West, fundamentally incompatible?

[The Fallen]

To the first bit, that's the easy part. A Muslim in the U.S. is free to live his or her life pretty much as they see fit. That'a what the U.S. is all about. As long as you're not breaking any laws.

But isn't that what the author is comparing? Unless he means that the west is somehow Christendom, in which case his premise is flawed.

The west is, for the most part, secular. With separation of church and state. And in the U.S., Muslims don't seem to have a problem with that. So they don't seem to be incompatible.

You are familiar with pretty much every war that changed the course of Christianity, right?

And play out?  The way it did in the past.  Pretty will for the Muslims in the beginning, but ending shitty due to their inability to adapt.  

You had the Enlightenment, Martin Luther. Blood was spilled, yes, but these changes began with individuals standing up to Christianity, not with armies.

And by play out, I mean for Europe and it's population. Would those attempts at invasion have resulted in Christians seeing the light and abandoning Christianity? Or would Christianity have become more entrenched?

[maarsen]

More's the pity

 

But I'm sure there's large rural parts of our well behaved upstairs neighbor that fall into the same realm.  

There are. The rural areas tend to vote for the Conservative party and the urban areas tend to vote Liberal. The rural areas are slowly depopulating and becoming less relevant but do offer good value for those with independent means and thus acts to help in modernizing those areas too.

[Jo498]

I think one point is that we do not have a clear historical model for the development of the islamic (or more precisely the near/middle eastern) region. In the last few months I have often heard/read comparisons to Europe in the 16th and 17th century and those historians/commentators feared that there was not much one could against a scenario for the middle east that more or less corresponded to a 30 years war. The structural similarity to Europe around 1600 is religious strife and the failing of a central authority/power. That power (Osmanic Empire) is gone away since almost 100 years ago in Syria and Iraq and has not yet been replaced by anything stable.

Religion is often in the explosive mix but this is not restricted to Islam. Look at Northern Island and the Balkan region.

[Castel]

 

You had the Enlightenment, Martin Luther. Blood was spilled, yes, but these changes began with individuals standing up to Christianity, not with armies.

And by play out, I mean for Europe and it's population. Would those attempts at invasion have resulted in Christians seeing the light and abandoning Christianity? Or would Christianity have become more entrenched?

Um...how did the Revolution last? Didn't the fight so many wars that it became clear that it was simply unprofitable to impossible to stop? 

 

What is the point of trumpeting one guy standing up if that one guy needed a prince with political and military power and that prince needed an alliance of princes (and some opportunistic powers on top) to kick out the people coming for him?

 

But isn't that what the author is comparing? Unless he means that the west is somehow Christendom, in which case his premise is flawed.

The west is, for the most part, secular. With separation of church and state. And in the U.S., Muslims don't seem to have a problem with that. So they don't seem to be incompatible.

Because it's always unclear what we're talking about. Muslims? Can clearly adapt. Islam? Clearly has problems but doesn't stop a certain set of Muslims from ignoring it. A certain set of Muslims under a certain interpretation? 

It's never clear. And I will say that this ambivalence is exploited. 

[The Fallen]

 

 

Um...how did the Revolution last? Didn't the fight so many wars that it became clear that it was simply unprofitable to impossible to stop? 

 

What is the point of trumpeting one guy standing up if that one guy needed a prince with political and military power and that prince needed an alliance of princes (and some opportunistic powers on top) to kick out the people coming for him?

 

Because it's always unclear what we're talking about. Muslims? Can clearly adapt. Islam? Clearly has problems but doesn't stop a certain set of Muslims from ignoring it. A certain set of Muslims under a certain interpretation? 

It's never clear. And I will say that this ambivalence is exploited. 

Fair enough. My larger point is that the west invading Muslim countries in an attempt to erase Islam from history probably isn't the best idea.

I agree with the second part.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Jo,

At one point in the book Ansary comments that a "reformation" of Islam is extremely difficult because there is no formal heirarchy to "reform".  Any learned man can talk about/interperet the Quran or Hadith.  So discussion of an Islamic "reformation" are off the mark as Chrisitanity and Islam are simply not comperable in that sense.

[peterbound]

 That power (Osmanic Empire) is gone away since almost 100 years ago in Syria and Iraq and has not yet been replaced by anything stable.

Religion is often in the explosive mix but this is not restricted to Islam. Look at Northern Island and the Balkan region.

Iraq was actually pretty stable under Sadaam.  He was a loony toon, for sure, but he kept the country in line.  

[Jo498]

Right. Iraq under Saddam was like the Balkan under the Eastern bloc rulers and the whole Near East under Osmanic rule (although this was pretty unstable already in the 19th century). With those strong/brutal leaders gone, it's often again back to the powder keg with many fuses burning.

[Biglose]

Islam in the US. Yeah, there is close to none.  Maybe around 1 percent.

And most are made up of african american who converted to islam (or to be more precise to what they thought Islam would be at the time they converted).

So yeah, the american inside perspective of the problem is irrelevant to the topic. Why? Simply put because it is not "Islam" the auther was talking about in general, it is Sunni Islam orianted towards saudi arabia. If you have a country where the muslim minority consists of Alevites and Yazidi and maybe some shite, yeah it does not apply.  The same thing goes for having a very few which consist of many different sects. If you for example compare the situation to france or germany, where the islam is majorly oriented towards sunni and financed by saudi arabia and turkey (germany), then you get closer to what he is talking about. If you take a look at the situation in sunni muslim countries, what the auther is talking about becomes clear. Even terrorism is not some random act of violance or a reaction to oppression or lack of opportunities.

Espacially in germany islamist are quite well contected and lead by rather intelligent people. This is why I think that attacks like Paris are unlikely, because it would run against their interests. Terror  only works if you are in a superior possition and the attacked can't really retaliate and can in this manner be cast out (look at the attacks of shite mosques in for example Kuwait), or if you leave the attacked an obvious way of retreating in order to influence society(Be it colonialism or gay rights). Simply put Charly Hebdo and the kosher super market had real effects which were in the general sense helpful for the islamist cause. The attacks in Paris seem to be the opposite, like it turned out for the attacks on 9/11.  Thats why general attacks on the civil population of the western world are more or less idiotic. People in general take islamic terrorist for some morrons without any forsight. Most are, granted. But some do actually have a plan and know what they are doing. So my guess is that the islamic state was more or less desperate(if those attacks were actually authorised) and hoped the french may cut and run) (Similar to what Osama bin Laden thought about the reaction to 9/11)

So no, that is not some crazy peole, there is a fundamental conflict beneath the surface. The US will probably not be really affected by it, because of the lack of muslim immigrants. And my guess is thats one of the big reasons why Obama does not take in refugees.

[The Fallen]

So are you saying that Muslims, despite their hatred of western culture, decide to move to these countries anyway? For what reason?

[Darzin]

I'd like to point out that this division of gender into separate spheres is really only applicable to some countries the author is Afghan which probably colors his view somewhat, but if you go to other places in Central Asia the idea that genders are separated is laughable. Sure there is more chauvinism then here but work, school and society in general are all fully integrated. Daily life for most people involves being crammed together on a minibus with all genders as they go where they need to go. Now some are just going to say that this is not true Islam and they're doing it wrong, to which I'll respond go tell the millions of people who are practicing it that. Some of these criticisms of "true" Islam sound like someone who says Catholics cannot be Christians because they worship idols. I do think Islam is reactionary and should be in the dustbin of history, regarding women's and gay rights, but people should look at  how it's actually practiced not how they imagine it "should" be practiced.  

[The Marquis de Leech]

Jo,

At one point in the book Ansary comments that a "reformation" of Islam is extremely difficult because there is no formal heirarchy to "reform".  Any learned man can talk about/interperet the Quran or Hadith.  So discussion of an Islamic "reformation" are off the mark as Chrisitanity and Islam are simply not comperable in that sense.

It's not a Reformation you want. The Christian Reformation erased the distinction between Church and State (which in the medieval period were rivals), so you ended up with the likes of Henry VIII becoming head of his own Church. To this day, the British House of Lords still has bishops as members (how's that for a secular west? Clerics in the legislature!).

The Arab world simply needs to rediscover secular routes to solving its issues (which, amongst other things, means the West taking a far tougher line on Saudi Arabia, which promotes this fundamentalist nuttery). 

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

RBPL,

No argument from me regarding KSA being a source for Salafi/Wahabi nutbaggery.

[Biglose]

So are you saying that Muslims, despite their hatred of western culture, decide to move to these countries anyway? For what reason?

Wouldn't you? If you get more money in place a for not working then you could ever make in place b no matter how much you work, what would you do? And thats not even talking about threat of life itself. That does not mean you do not think that their exceptance of gay people is not an abomination. You just have to go to the refugee shelters and listen or you can listen to those who do. It is not a 100% and like every attitude it is not written in stone but still it is there.

[Maltaran]

To this day, the British House of Lords still has bishops as members (how's that for a secular west? Clerics in the legislature!).

We are one of only two countries that gives religious leaders ex officio seats in the legislature. The other is Iran.

[Darzin]

So are you saying that Muslims, despite their hatred of western culture, decide to move to these countries anyway? For what reason?

I wouldn't say Muslims hate western culture in fact many Muslims quite like western music, movies and products. Values such as acceptance of gay people and the roles of women are often different, but Muslims I know who want to move to the west don't seem to worked up about the difference in values. It's also worth pointing out that at least in Central Asia there is not much perspective about the west you can't talk about it rationally with people unless someone has been there. This isn't because they hate it, but because people think it's so good they think it's paradise. I can see where it comes from when I lived in Tajikistan I made $6,000 a year which was considered a decent wage so when people find out that a waiter can make $17,000 they think everyone is rich and everything is good, if you try to explain about poverty in the west people just flat out wouldn't believe you. If they hate US foreign policy and want to kill gay people they would still say they loved America and want to go there.  I wasn't in Morocco so long so, but I did get a sense of the same thing but with France specifically many  people asked why I would want to study in their country when I as an American could go to France!  

[Ormond]

Jo,

At one point in the book Ansary comments that a "reformation" of Islam is extremely difficult because there is no formal heirarchy to "reform".  Any learned man can talk about/interperet the Quran or Hadith.  So discussion of an Islamic "reformation" are off the mark as Chrisitanity and Islam are simply not comperable in that sense.

I find that a very odd statement because I do not think that the Protestant Reformation was just about reforming a "heirarchy." It was even more about reforming the prevalent theology of the time. I do not see why a reform movement couldn't arise in Islam despite its completely congregational structure. 

[peterbound]

I wouldn't say Muslims hate western culture in fact many Muslims quite like western music, movies and products. Values such as acceptance of gay people and the roles of women are often different, but Muslims I know who want to move to the west don't seem to worked up about the difference in values. It's also worth pointing out that at least in Central Asia there is not much perspective about the west you can't talk about it rationally with people unless someone has been there. This isn't because they hate it, but because people think it's so good they think it's paradise. I can see where it comes from when I lived in Tajikistan I made $6,000 a year which was considered a decent wage so when people find out that a waiter can make $17,000 they think everyone is rich and everything is good, if you try to explain about poverty in the west people just flat out wouldn't believe you. If they hate US foreign policy and want to kill gay people they would still say they loved America and want to go there.  I wasn't in Morocco so long so, but I did get a sense of the same thing but with France specifically many  people asked why I would want to study in their country when I as an American could go to France!  

Side note:  Morocco was the worst place i've ever visited.  Bummed me out, I was really looking forward to going over there.  I remember on the ferry over they warned us about the 'tour guides', but nothing prepared me for the harassment i received. 

[The Fallen]

Wouldn't you? If you get more money in place a for not working then you could ever make in place b no matter how much you work, what would you do? And thats not even talking about threat of life itself. That does not mean you do not think that their exceptance of gay people is not an abomination. You just have to go to the refugee shelters and listen or you can listen to those who do. It is not a 100% and like every attitude it is not written in stone but still it is there.

That sounds like the argument whites in the U.S. make about latinos and welfare. And you should hear how some of our politicians talk about the gays.

I'm not stating that Islam and Muslims are perfect. What I'm saying is that it's not any more "terrible" than any other religion.

In the U.S. Muslims can be ... Muslim. That doesn't mean installing Sharia law. But they can worship and build mosques. And they can wear their traditional clothing. (As can Indians and Africans, etc ...) While at the same time following the laws and pretty much integrating with our society. As much or as little as they like.

But it seems that Europe wants Muslims to not be Muslims, but rather to become secular and adopt all European values while discarding their own. And the question is why?

[The Fallen]

Side note:  Morocco was the worst place i've ever visited.  Bummed me out, I was really looking forward to going over there.  I remember on the ferry over they warned us about the 'tour guides', but nothing prepared me for the harassment i received. 

Harrassment?