Undeserved Praise

[TimJames]

The values of Westeros are ... off. 

Some characters receive praise and glory in-story (or worse yet, by the narrative itself) despite not deserving it.

Which characters do you think are an example of this?

[Lord of Westeros]

Rhaegar Targaryen

Daenerys Targaryen

Khal Drogo

[TimJames]

Rhaegar Targaryen

Daenerys Targaryen

Khal Drogo

Very good examples.

Whether a seducer or a rapist, Rhaegar's recklessness caused a war that killed untold innocents. That he basically pissed on his marriage in front of the kingdom and abandoned his wife and children is icing on the bad-person cake.

Daenerys is a war criminal; just because her enemies own slaves does not give her any right to break ceasefire agreements (one she suggested no less!), systematically mass-murder countless unarmed civilians ("kill every Astapori aristocrat over the age of 13, with no trial to determine whether they deserve to die or not"), or crucify people chosen at random. If the UN existed in her time, and if it actually did it's job, then Daenerys would be spending the rest of her life in an International Prison. 

Being a gentle lover and a considerate father does not change the fact that Khal Drogo was essentially Attila The Hun. His legacy was slavery and death. 

[SilentDystopia]

Rhaegar Targaryen

Jon Snow

Lyanna Stark

Dany

 

[purple-eyes]

There is no doubt that Rhaegar was over praised for no good reason. 

We were told numerous times (almost annoying) that how wonderful he is and how many people worshiped him as if he is a god,

But what he had done so far was nothing wonderful. There was a big gap between what he did and what he was praised. 

I like GRRM's writing but his description about Rhaegar is unreasonable and cheap and unnatural. 

I guess he wanted to paint a Helen and Paris story but honestly he did not do well here. 

Same thing with Lyanna. 

I can not understand why she was praised as the best and honorable female hero in this world. 

And it looks like she outshines every single woman in this book. And every man became a jerk to their women for her. Usually this type of figure we call it Mary Sue. 

 

Rhaegar and Lyanna. 

GRRM's Gary Stu and Mary Sue. 

 

 

[TimJames]

Rhaegar Targaryen

Jon Snow

Lyanna Stark

Dany

If Lyanna actually eloped, then her selfishness killed her father and brother AND caused a horrific war. If I was Eddard and Lyanna confessed to this at the tower, I would have killed her myself. 

Jon Snow cut a guy's head off just for insubordination, which becomes hypocritical once you factor in that Jon got away with attempting to murder one of his Black Brothers with a knife. If Jon had just told Janos "I know you tried to have me killed." right before the execution, then it would have been justified. But as it stands, it was kinda a dick move. 

[MaybeINeverSawACamel]

Cersei Lannister

Roose Bolton

Renly'sGhost

Rhaegar 

[TimJames]

There is no doubt that Rhaegar was over praised for no good reason. 

We were told numerous times (almost annoying) that how wonderful he is and how many people worshiped him as if he is a god,

But what he had done so far was nothing wonderful. There was a big gap between what he did and what he was praised. 

I like GRRM's writing but his description about Rhaegar is unreasonable and cheap and unnatural. 

I guess he wanted to paint a Helen and Paris story but honestly he did not do well here. 

Same thing with Lyanna. 

I can not understand why she was praised as the best and honorable female hero in this world. 

And it looks like she outshines every single woman in this book. And every man became a jerk to their women for her. Usually this type of figure we call it Mary Sue. 

 

Rhaegar and Lyanna. 

GRRM's Gary Stu and Mary Sue. 

 

 

Helen and Paris weren't a good love story either! Hector of Troy basically calls his younger brother a sniveling coward for endangering all of their people with reckless activity. 

I myself don't believe Lyanna eloped (Just My Personal Opinion), but if she did then she would have been an awful human being who has nobody but herself to blame for her death. 

[purple-eyes]

Helen and Paris weren't a good love story either! Hector of Troy basically calls his younger brother a sniveling coward for endangering all of their people with reckless activity. 

I myself don't believe Lyanna eloped (Just My Personal Opinion), but if she did then she would have been an awful human being who has nobody but herself to blame for her death. 

Yeah, that is why I think troy story is better. It is more real and reasonable and understandable.

Homer told us the flaws of Paris and Helen and told us people thought him as selfish and coward-like. he told us Helen felt ashamed for herself and wept for the war she caused. He also made Paris' first wife hated him and refused to treat him then he died by the arrow. all of these made sense. 

What GRRM did, is like make hector praised that Paris is such a dutiful and great hero and perfect at everything and make all the women and men loved Paris and ready to die for him to defend his love in Helen. And also make Paris's first wife totally OK to see him abandon her and their child just because Paris and Helen had true love. And also make people think Paris must be a best king for them, etc. etc. (all of these were done for Rhaegar by GRRM in this book)

So ridiculous.

 

[Orphalesion]

Well if we go by todays standards a lot of characters would fit the bill....

Helen and Paris weren't a good love story either! Hector of Troy basically calls his younger brother a sniveling coward for endangering all of their people with reckless activity. 

I myself don't believe Lyanna eloped (Just My Personal Opinion), but if she did then she would have been an awful human being who has nobody but herself to blame for her death. 

Helen and Paris also were very selfish people. But like in ASoIaF I can't cheer for the Greeks either who did not just take Troy but massacre its civillian population, even defiling their own gods in the process.

If you think about it the parallels of Helen - Lyanna, Rhaegar - Paris and Menelaos - Robert are quite fitting. (not 1:1 but similar enough)

Keep in mind that most of the praise Rhaegar receives comes from his close friends or people who were in love with him and...well nostalgia probably also does its part for people who are disillusioned after the Baratheon dynasty failed to make a single change for the better.

The broad masses tend to remember (and romanticize) only the good parts of the past, so they'd just remembr the tall, silver haired harpist, then look at the miserable, vulgar fatass that sits on the throne now and go all "oh the Targaryens were so much better" forgetting that the Targaryens also had less than stellar (and often unpleasant) kings.

With lyanna and Rhaegar....I honestly don't really want to build an opinion on that until we get the whole story (also personally) I can honestly see it work many different ways, including the idea that Lyanna might actually have been on board in the beginning, thinking it all to be a giant romantic adventure....until she realized the consequences, and by that time she was locked up in a tower in Dorne and pregnant.

I do thinks he was genuinely unhappy that her father used her as a pawn for "Southron Ambitions", didn't ewant to marry Robert and ttook Rhaegar's offer as a chance, perhaps not to escape, but to rebel?

But again, that's the Lyanna I project into the text, we don't know enough about her to really support my interpretation nor deny it.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

Yeah, that is why I think troy story is better. It is more real and reasonable and understandable.

Homer told us the flaws of Paris and Helen and told us people thought him as selfish and coward-like. he told us Helen felt ashamed for herself and wept for the war she caused. He also made Paris' first wife hated him and refused to treat him then he died by the arrow. all of these made sense. 

What GRRM did, is like make hector praised that Paris is such a dutiful and great hero and perfect at everything and make all the women and men loved Paris and ready to die for him to defend his love in Helen. And also make Paris's first wife totally OK to see him abandon her and their child just because Paris and Helen had true love. And also make people think Paris must be a best king for them, etc. etc. (all of these were done for Rhaegar by GRRM in this book)

So ridiculous.

 

What?

Quotes please?

Because there were some people who loved and admired Rhaegar, but even Barristan is critical wrt the Lyanna gate, people took sides in the war according to their own reasons and for their own benefit and nothing about defending "Rhaegar's love" and as for his wife being ok... that one exists only in some readers' imagination and nowhere else.

[purple-eyes]

 

I do thinks he was genuinely unhappy that her father used her as a pawn for "Southron Ambitions", didn't ewant to marry Robert and ttook Rhaegar's offer as a chance, perhaps not to escape, but to rebel?

But again, that's the Lyanna I project into the text, we don't know enough about her to really support my interpretation nor deny it.

Lyanna is probably the shinning woman right leader of westeros, who wanted to rebel against her evil father who dragged her into a stupid anti-human arranged marriage. She is the breaker and destroyer of arranged marriages. not only her own, but also Elia's, Cersei's, and arguably Cat's. Very impressive. 

[Orphalesion]

Lyanna is probably the shinning woman right leader of westeros, who wanted to rebel against her evil father who dragged her into a stupid anti-human arranged marriage. She is the breaker and destroyer of arranged marriages. not only her own, but also Elia's, Cersei's, and arguably Cat's. Very impressive. 

No. I see her as a teenager who did something without considering the consequences of her actions. Not that different from Sansa jumping at the chance to marry Willas without even having met the guy.

I don't belief I painted her as an early Isadora Duncan by saying she wanted to rebel agfainst a merriage we know for a fact she did not want.

Imagine the following:

1)Lyanna, is in full moping teenager mode "Daddy doesn't understand me! My brothers doesn't understand me! I'm the unhappiest girl in the World yadda yadda yadda

2) Tall ahndsome prince (Rhaegar) shows up, he's intelligent, charming, elegant and oh so romantic! And he even plays the harp!

3) Rhaegar fills Lyanna's head with romantic songs and tales and promises, speaks about how she is special because she will help him save the world....if she only comes along with him.

4) Lyanna is flattered and decides on what she believes to be a fun and romantic adventure. No need to tell daddy, he doesn't care what she wants so let him worry!

- Fast forward Lyanna is locked up in the Tower of Joy and pregnant, with no means of communicating with the outside world.

Yes, truly a paragon of feminism, eh?

[Andorion]

We know very little about Lyanna and Rhaegar, its all third hand info from memories of people who loved them like Barristan and Ned, so there is the nostalgia factor. Making judgements on this data is wrong. 

Drogo was an extraordinary warlord who united all the Khals. His military abilities are worthy of praise. Nobody is nominating him for the Nobel Peace Prize.

Accusing Jon over the Janos incident is silly. Jon is the Lord Commander. He gave a subordinate an order in private. Janos refused. Then he openly defied him in public. The NW is a military organization and at that time they are passing through a critical phase, preparing for an attack. In no military organization can you get away by openly defying and insulting your superior officer in that situation. A death sentence is certainly not uncalled for here.

Roose Bolton again deserves praise for his awesome conspiring skills. He destroyed Stark power, took Winterfell and extricated himself intact from a war that was going bad. Is he a bad person? Certainly. Just don't deny his skills.

Cersei Lannister...... I got nothing. Criticize away

[purple-eyes]

No. I see her as a teenager who did something without considering the consequences of her actions. Not that different from Sansa jumping at the chance to marry Willas without even having met the guy.

I don't belief I painted her as an early Isadora Duncan by saying she wanted to rebel agfainst a merriage we know for a fact she did not want.

Imagine the following:

1)Lyanna, is in full moping teenager mode "Daddy doesn't understand me! My brothers doesn't understand me! I'm the unhappiest girl in the World yadda yadda yadda

2) Tall ahndsome prince (Rhaegar) shows up, he's intelligent, charming, elegant and oh so romantic! And he even plays the harp!

3) Rhaegar fills Lyanna's head with romantic songs and tales and promises, speaks about how she is special because she will help him save the world....if she only comes along with him.

4) Lyanna is flattered and decides on what she believes to be a fun and romantic adventure. No need to tell daddy, he doesn't care what she wants so let him worry!

- Fast forward Lyanna is locked up in the Tower of Joy and pregnant, with no means of communicating with the outside world.

Yes, truly a paragon of feminism, eh?

As far as we know, she was not locked there against her will. If Rhaegar locked her there by force, why would she hold his roses on her death bed? she apparently loved rhaegar until the last moment. She did not regret what she did. She probably just blamed Aerys for everything and thought she and rhaegar are completely innocent. 

 

[redtree]

Rhaegar
Lyanna Stark
Hoster Tully
Jon Arryn
Tywin, in Cersei's head

[John Doe]

Robb Stark

Rhaegar Targaryen

Aegon the Maegon

Lyanna Stark

 

[Jon's Queen Consort]

The Targs in general but most recently Rhaegar and Dany:

Rhaegar thought that it was ok just to abandon his wife and children at the mercy of his lunatic father, just because he thought Elia was a broken baby making machine, and disappear with Lyanna hiding in the middle of nowhere from a war he helped to start. 

Dany says that she will bring fire and blood to those she calls as "her people", broke a truce, begins a reign or terror, was going to put her son on what she believes that is her brother's throne and  commits genocide with her own excuse being that she is but a young girl and know little of the ways of war.

Lyanna the hypocrite. She imagined that her betrothal will cheat her but she had no problem with eloping with a married man father of two and disappearing which lead to a chain of reaction that ended in a huge war.

Hoster first he actually poison his own daughter so she will abort the child she was bearing then marries her with a man old enough to be her grandfather and on top of that he puts villages to the sword because of their lord.

Blackfish the hypocrite. He is all about "Family duty honor" but he bullies his nephew and when he was his time to do his duty and honor his family he didn't.

Cat. Bullies her brother, endangers her nephew when she went her own prisoner at his house and not her house, being all "My sister told me that Lannisters killed her husband but I guess that handing them my daughters will be ok. What could possibly go wrong?”, she decides to play Westeros stratego edition and abandons her comatosed son and her infant and on top of that he emotionally abuse a child his whole life just because she feeling hurt when she willingly turns the blind eye to the man who betrayed her just because he told her not to ask more about his son.

[Swordofmorning]

Rhaegar Targaryean and Lyanna Stark, for reasons mentioned.

Robert Baratheon, credited for ending the Targ dynasty and got the throne, while he should've been hanged for accepting child murder.

[Schwarze Sonne]

Almost every named characters in the series.

Notable mentioned:

Rhaegar Targaryen (no idea why he did what he did despite seemingly being smart, I suggested Dragon Dream or Bloodraven drove him to do it)

Daenerys Targaryen (won all wars by cheating and betrayals, got angry when others did the same, trying to be good queen can be done by anyone, being capable is another story)

Jon Snow (For the Watch! and multiple stupid decisions made by him that put himself and others in danger only to be rescued by deus ex machina, also his too pro-wildling and ignorance to plan his genius plans to his sworn brothers)

Catelyn Stark (let grieves dulled her judgement every time and always in grieves)

Brynden Tully (for all the praise, he didn't help Edmure in his dire situation and generally favored and more forgiving to Catelyn, whom made many mistakes too, he also might not be that great as others made him to be)

Lyanna Stark (naive and selfish)

Renly Baratheon (ursurper, kinslayer wannabe, incompetent, remind me of Regal for Robin Hobb's novels)

Asha Greyjoy (a hypocrite using feminist ideology for her own self-righteous acts, but she was all about Balon's idiotic Old Ways before)

Barristan the Bold (Old and Biased)

Tyrion Lannister (privilaged, thinks too highly of his intelligence)

Tywin Lannister (a hypocrite, at least not public)

The Dornishmen, especially the Sandsnakes (treacherous and hypocrites)