Originality in Westeros

[Curled Finger]

Perhaps one of the main reasons some threads die out is because a lot of people don't have things to add to them? I read a lot of threads, some which pick up and some that don't,but I rarely contribute anything. Mostly this is because I haven't read the books as many times others, or haven't finished the World book and stuff like that. And I also take ages writing posts.

I did start a new thread myself once, on a topic that no one ever seems to discuss. While lots of people talk about how Jon will be resurrected (or if he's even dead) no one ever talks about every other character's reaction, other than the wildlings joining Jon. 0 replies.

Threads dealing with the immediate plot might have an easier time getting replies since everyone knows the plot, but not everyone has been studying the history of Essos or whatever a thread that ultimately fails is about.

Isn't it frustrating to just want to get other ideas about something and fall flat?   I think folks focus on the Wildlings because they are with Jon and know what's happened.    Remember, the North is war torn just now.    Eventually it will have to come out and wouldn't you like to see frickin Roose Bolton's face when the dead guy shows up to dance?   You know who's reaction I look forward to?   Sansa's.   She almost seemed fond of him when she met Myranda Royce, but barely noticed he was alive when they lived together.   She's such an intricate piece of work.  It won't do anything good for Arya.  I think everyone is still in shock Jon was stabbed so many times by his sworn brothers that maybe some of us don't really think he's dead and still more believe he will only be dead a little while--not long enough to really get the word out.   What do I know, I'm not sure he's dead.

It was the people who have read the books and/or watched the show who tended my garden, so I think you get a lot out of exchanges with other people who are interested in this.   I wouldn't have picked up on Bran being the tree watching Arya in her dreams or the Sailor's Wife being Tysha if I hadn't seen it here.   I've made all these rereads because I learn something new every single time.   I picked it up once because I had myself convinced Stannis wasn't really a Baratheon.  But it was my idea and reading showed me what a really bad idea it was.  

So gather your thoughts and try again. I'd enjoy this discussion and put my bet down right now:  $5 says this will tie directly into how folks will react when and if his parentage is ever widely exposed.  Go for it.   And while I'm at it, thanks for contributing here.   You gave me stuff to ponder.   Good luck with the new and improved Reactions to Jon's Death topic.     

[Victarion Chainbreaker]

Timmett related to Nettles?

I read a really interesting idea recently. In Sansa's last chapter when Petyr is listing off all the relatives who used to be in line for succession before Harry the Heir, he mentions that one of Harry's aunts was carried off by the Burned Men. If Timmett is her son then he'd be before Harry in line to the Arryn throne.

[Aniel]

Isn't it frustrating to just want to get other ideas about something and fall flat?   I think folks focus on the Wildlings because they are with Jon and know what's happened.    Remember, the North is war torn just now.    Eventually it will have to come out and wouldn't you like to see frickin Roose Bolton's face when the dead guy shows up to dance?   You know who's reaction I look forward to?   Sansa's.   She almost seemed fond of him when she met Myranda Royce, but barely noticed he was alive when they lived together.   She's such an intricate piece of work.  It won't do anything good for Arya.  I think everyone is still in shock Jon was stabbed so many times by his sworn brothers that maybe some of us don't really think he's dead and still more believe he will only be dead a little while--not long enough to really get the word out.   What do I know, I'm not sure he's dead.

It was the people who have read the books and/or watched the show who tended my garden, so I think you get a lot out of exchanges with other people who are interested in this.   I wouldn't have picked up on Bran being the tree watching Arya in her dreams or the Sailor's Wife being Tysha if I hadn't seen it here.   I've made all these rereads because I learn something new every single time.   I picked it up once because I had myself convinced Stannis wasn't really a Baratheon.  But it was my idea and reading showed me what a really bad idea it was.  

So gather your thoughts and try again. I'd enjoy this discussion and put my bet down right now:  $5 says this will tie directly into how folks will react when and if his parentage is ever widely exposed.  Go for it.   And while I'm at it, thanks for contributing here.   You gave me stuff to ponder.   Good luck with the new and improved Reactions to Jon's Death topic.     

Wow, I just realized I forgot a rather important word in my post here ._. The thread I made was more about the resurrection angle (I doubt a lot of wildlings will have the sense to check if Jon's eyes are glowing blue since they've seen so many people rise before), but I'll see if I can make a new thread including the death reactions.

[Clegane'sPup]

this is what works, check it out

[Curled Finger]

Wow, I just realized I forgot a rather important word in my post here ._. The thread I made was more about the resurrection angle (I doubt a lot of wildlings will have the sense to check if Jon's eyes are glowing blue since they've seen so many people rise before), but I'll see if I can make a new thread including the death reactions.

It's the only way you'll get it done.   Can't wait to see what you discover Aniel! 

[Curled Finger]

this is what works, check it out

Er, rants?  I guess it can't hurt to look, but i'm not great at bashing things.   

[Curled Finger]

I read a really interesting idea recently. In Sansa's last chapter when Petyr is listing off all the relatives who used to be in line for succession before Harry the Heir, he mentions that one of Harry's aunts was carried off by the Burned Men. If Timmett is her son then he'd be before Harry in line to the Arryn throne.

Oooooh wouldn't that be something!   Those Mountain Clans seem so oddly placed after the adventures with Tyrion.    I bet they come back into the story--maybe they'l carry stinking Little Finger off and feed him to the goats.   TImmet, Son of TImmet, Heir to the Vale.   This I'd like to see.   

[Clegane'sPup]

Er, rants?  I guess it can't hurt to look, but i'm not great at bashing things.   

My suggestion that you look at the thread was not about bashing. People got involved with their idea's, thought's and opinions.

In less than 24 hours that thread went from 0 to 7 pages . The reason I suggested you take a look at it is because it has an eye catching title, controversial character and subject matter. INC had the willingness to respond; feed it, defend it or argue it thereby keeping it on the first page.

Someone like me comes along with, “All things dragon” and if I remember correctly I responded once. I appreciated the responses I received. Some good replies. If I had Incorporated some incendiary and inflammatory remarks like, “No, way Dany is going to conquer Westeros because she *+&^ crazy and Drogon is dead,” it would have been a different ballgame.

 

[Curled Finger]

My suggestion that you look at the thread was not about bashing. People got involved with their idea's, thought's and opinions.

In less than 24 hours that thread went from 0 to 7 pages . The reason I suggested you take a look at it is because it has an eye catching title, controversial character and subject matter. INC had the willingness to respond; feed it, defend it or argue it thereby keeping it on the first page.

Someone like me comes along with, “All things dragon” and if I remember correctly I responded once. I appreciated the responses I received. Some good replies. If I had Incorporated some incendiary and inflammatory remarks like, “No, way Dany is going to conquer Westeros because she *+&^ crazy and Drogon is dead,” it would have been a different ballgame.

 

 

 

I did go read it and I see what you mean.   I"m a lover, not a fighter and probably couldn't get the incendiary words out of my keyboard!   But I have to admit that you are completely right in this case.    

[dornishdame]

You know who's reaction I look forward to?   Sansa's.   She almost seemed fond of him when she met Myranda Royce, but barely noticed he was alive when they lived together.   She's such an intricate piece of work.  It won't do anything good for Arya.

Regarding Sansa, I would just say two things:

1) Between Benjen's disappearance, Ned's execution, Arya going missing in King's Landing, the deaths of Ned's household and the disappearance of Jeyne Poole, the Sack of Winterfell and the Red Wedding, I think that Sansa feels sometimes as if she is the only person from her Winterfell childhood left.  Perhaps that is why she seems to slip into the persona of Alayne so quickly? (sidebar: I think this traumatic loss of family is why both Arya and Sansa find it easy to slip inside other personas) I think that Myranda Royce mentioning Jon reminds Sansa that she isn't alone.  There is still someone living who remembers Old Nan's stories, the Godswood, silly childhood games etc.  Yes, I know in Thrones that Sansa seems to emphasize that Jon is her half-brother (and apparently had done since she was old enough to understand the meaning of the word bastard), but he is the only person from that part of her life that she believes to be alive.  

2) By the time Sansa meets Myranda, she has taken on the persona of Alayne Stone, a bastard girl.  Remember Sansa's horror when Littlefinger told her she would need to pretend to be a bastard because it would be safer?  In Thrones, when Arya says that Jon thinks Joffrey looks like a girl, Sansa replies that he is jealous because he is a bastard (ironic, given that Joffrey is, we later learn, Cersei and Jaime's bastard son).  Through being 'Alayne', I think Sansa begins to comprehend how difficult thinks were for Jon and how he was made to feel an outsider in his own home.  And I think it probably changes how she perceives him a little bit. 

As for Arya, the only parts of her she has retained are her wolf dreams and needle.  I wonder if hearing of Jon's death may bring her back to needle and so to Arya? After all, he gave her the sword.  I think she will go back to the Riverlands in Winds.  She has unfinished business there, and it is where Nymeria is.  She is so focused on vengeance that she can't become No One.  And I think that will ultimately lead her away from Braavos.  In fact, I think that if anything it may be meeting Lady Stoneheart and seeing what her mother has become that will finally bring Arya back from the brink. 

[Curled Finger]

Regarding Sansa, I would just say two things:

1) Between Benjen's disappearance, Ned's execution, Arya going missing in King's Landing, the deaths of Ned's household and the disappearance of Jeyne Poole, the Sack of Winterfell and the Red Wedding, I think that Sansa feels sometimes as if she is the only person from her Winterfell childhood left.  Perhaps that is why she seems to slip into the persona of Alayne so quickly? (sidebar: I think this traumatic loss of family is why both Arya and Sansa find it easy to slip inside other personas) I think that Myranda Royce mentioning Jon reminds Sansa that she isn't alone.  There is still someone living who remembers Old Nan's stories, the Godswood, silly childhood games etc.  Yes, I know in Thrones that Sansa seems to emphasize that Jon is her half-brother (and apparently had done since she was old enough to understand the meaning of the word bastard), but he is the only person from that part of her life that she believes to be alive.  

2) By the time Sansa meets Myranda, she has taken on the persona of Alayne Stone, a bastard girl.  Remember Sansa's horror when Littlefinger told her she would need to pretend to be a bastard because it would be safer?  In Thrones, when Arya says that Jon thinks Joffrey looks like a girl, Sansa replies that he is jealous because he is a bastard (ironic, given that Joffrey is, we later learn, Cersei and Jaime's bastard son).  Through being 'Alayne', I think Sansa begins to comprehend how difficult thinks were for Jon and how he was made to feel an outsider in his own home.  And I think it probably changes how she perceives him a little bit. 

As for Arya, the only parts of her she has retained are her wolf dreams and needle.  I wonder if hearing of Jon's death may bring her back to needle and so to Arya? After all, he gave her the sword.  I think she will go back to the Riverlands in Winds.  She has unfinished business there, and it is where Nymeria is.  She is so focused on vengeance that she can't become No One.  And I think that will ultimately lead her away from Braavos.  In fact, I think that if anything it may be meeting Lady Stoneheart and seeing what her mother has become that will finally bring Arya back from the brink. 

Thanks for joining here, too Dame--your many insights are exactly what I am addressing in this thread.   It's no secret that you and I agree on many topics.   Aside from that you are a thoughtful analyst and write with your heart.   When I see your posts I feel as though you are sincere, not just adding to your post count.   To the bolded:  I never thought Sansa slipped into the Alayne Stone persona quickly or well.   I think shock and desperation and probably a good dose of fear made her go along with her captor's scheme in pretending to be Alayne.  She slips up so much with Myranda.   I didn't think Sansa would ever learn to go along to get along until the Alayne chapter, where she's finally flourishing.   Still I couldn't agree more that Myranda's mention of Jon may have given Sansa just a glimmer of hope.   Who knows, maybe even pride in Jon's achievement.   In that LF holds all these secret touchy feely kissy tell all sessions with Sansa I have a hard time believing she gets her mind set in Alayne.  She's acting, no more or less.   part of her act is training herself that while she is in character she can't slip or allow herself "Sansa" thoughts.   But I think it's one of those rare sweet things in this brutal story that perhaps Sansa is changing her perception of her half brother (ahem.)

As to Arya, she's allowed so much of herself to submerge.   I wonder if she knows who the characters are in real life that she and her troupe are playing in The Bloody Hand.   Does she see her sister in the character?  Does she imagine this is her sister's fate? Could that have fueled any of the rage she let in Mercy?   For all intents and purposes I have to agree that Arya appears to have given quite a bit of herself over--except Needle.  Needle tethers her to her heritage and land and family.  Needle represents all she's lost and all she wanted.   Retaining Needle clearly indicates Arya's desire to go home, for whatever horror may find her there.   Sadly I do think it will take LSH to show Arya the error in her primary motivator, revenge.   For all the WTF moments most everyone has had with LSH I think Arya is her true purpose in the story.   Then maybe I can quit loathing her as both Cat and LSH.  

Both sisters are becoming accomplished actresses.   For all it's worth I hope Arya keeps her face and people will know her upon her return to Westeros.   

 

[dornishdame]

Thanks for joining here, too Dame--your many insights are exactly what I am addressing in this thread.   It's no secret that you and I agree on many topics.   Aside from that you are a thoughtful analyst and write with your heart.   When I see your posts I feel as though you are sincere, not just adding to your post count.   To the bolded:  I never thought Sansa slipped into the Alayne Stone persona quickly or well.   I think shock and desperation and probably a good dose of fear made her go along with her captor's scheme in pretending to be Alayne.  She slips up so much with Myranda.   I didn't think Sansa would ever learn to go along to get along until the Alayne chapter, where she's finally flourishing.   Still I couldn't agree more that Myranda's mention of Jon may have given Sansa just a glimmer of hope.   Who knows, maybe even pride in Jon's achievement.   In that LF holds all these secret touchy feely kissy tell all sessions with Sansa I have a hard time believing she gets her mind set in Alayne.  She's acting, no more or less.   part of her act is training herself that while she is in character she can't slip or allow herself "Sansa" thoughts.   But I think it's one of those rare sweet things in this brutal story that perhaps Sansa is changing her perception of her half brother (ahem.)

As to Arya, she's allowed so much of herself to submerge.   I wonder if she knows who the characters are in real life that she and her troupe are playing in The Bloody Hand.   Does she see her sister in the character?  Does she imagine this is her sister's fate? Could that have fueled any of the rage she let in Mercy?   For all intents and purposes I have to agree that Arya appears to have given quite a bit of herself over--except Needle.  Needle tethers her to her heritage and land and family.  Needle represents all she's lost and all she wanted.   Retaining Needle clearly indicates Arya's desire to go home, for whatever horror may find her there.   Sadly I do think it will take LSH to show Arya the error in her primary motivator, revenge.   For all the WTF moments most everyone has had with LSH I think Arya is her true purpose in the story.   Then maybe I can quit loathing her as both Cat and LSH.  

Both sisters are becoming accomplished actresses.   For all it's worth I hope Arya keeps her face and people will know her upon her return to Westeros.   

Re Sansa - perhaps I do underestimate how quickly she becomes Alayne.  And you are right - now that I think back, there is quite a slip up with Myranda when she mentions Jon.  

As far as Arya is concerned, it is so long since I read Mercy, that I don't remember how much information there is on the play.  Speaking generally, I think that she will keep her face.  And with Ned's comparisons in Thrones, it will be interesting to see if she has retained her likeness to Lyanna (and what that may mean for anyone she meets). With Lady Stoneheart seemingly in control of the Neck, I think that if Arya returns to the Riverlands (as I believe she will do in Winds, as this is where Nymeria is) there will be a way for her to go north should she wish to do so. 

Finally, Lady Stoneheart.  I know that there are a lot of anti-Catelyn people out there, and for many reasons. I think a combination of her attitude to Jon and her capture of Tyrion setting in motion a series of events that result in the WOTFK is why she is so often criticized (not to mention, as you point out, her behavior as Lady Stoneheart).  Personally, I have said many times that I believe one of the saddest parts of the entire series comes when Jon goes to say goodbye to Bran before leaving for Castle Black, and notes that Cat says his name for the first time. At this point, Jon is fourteen going on fifteen and they have both lived at Winterfell for almost a decade and a half.  It is sad that in that time, she has never called him by his name - she has not been a true step-mother to Jon. But, I think we have to consider too how hard the situation was for Catelyn, and overall must acknowledge that right or wrong, whatever Catelyn does, she does for the good of her children. The situation wasn't just her fault, either.  

[evita mgfs]

I strive for originality in the topics I post.  But no one reads them!  Or if they do, they read selectively - and then argue their own agenda while willfully ignoring mine.

Oh - I have met many many wonderful scholars who have inspired me.  Anyway, PLEASE read my current threads - I hope my analyses will prove far different from some of those you speak of.

Bran’s Growing Powers after his Final POV in ADwD

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/132143-brans-growing-powers-after-his-final-pov-in-adwd/

Motifs and Meaning in Martin’s “Mercy” TWoW

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/109264-spoilers-motifs-meaning-in-martins-mercy/

Arya and the Water Motif in Braavos

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/76013-arya-no-one-and-the-water-motif-in-braavos/page-4

Martin’s POV and Pronoun Errors in the Prologue AGoT

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/132287-martins-pov-pronoun-errors-in-agot-prologue/

[Texas Hold Em]

Dany's eggs are sort of pretty in the show, but nothing like I imagined when reading.  If you had some oh maybe 200 year old eggs collecting dust in the bowels of Dragonstone, how could you even really be able to identify what they are?  Though I think it's more likely Rhaenyra hid them out of sheer spite.  And don't forget there were 3 wild dragons who could have laid eggs anywhere, presumably.  I'm just not sure everyone knows what they look like or that they are all that identifiable after all this time?   

Mellisandre would know.  They were smuggled out of the island and taken somewhere.  The ones in KL were removed before the sack and taken somewhere.  Where?  That's the significance of the red door and the reason why the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard was away from the capital.  Aerys ordered them to hide the eggs.   Find the red door and you find the dragon eggs. It's the dragon dream calling to their future mother,  to draw her in, not a memory from the past.

[evita mgfs]

Dear OP:

On another thread, you sang praises to the OP for his/her ORiginality.

Check out these archived threads wherein I and others posted extensively and offered up much evidence.  Sadly, the OP's ideas are not as original as you and him/her wish to think.

Archived thread on the Faceless Men from 2011 wherein much of what is said on the other thread began here .  

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/50937-faceless-men/&page=1

I have written extensively on these FM - as have others.

Regarding parallel journeys of the Stark siblings and others, read this archived thread from 2012.  Lots of conjecture, speculation, and evidences have already been said - har har!  What do you make of this?

It never ceases to amaze me how posters arrive at the same conclusions and find the same evidences despite a two or three year separation.

 

 

 

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/50937-faceless-men/&page=1

I have written extensively on these FM - as have others - so you may enjoy how on point your assertions are!

Regarding parallel journeys of the Stark siblings and others, you will enjoy this archived thread from 2012 :

 

[Durran Durrandon]

I've been off for a couple of months and just recently came back on. It seems that the site reboot has reduced a bit of the activity. It also seems like about a year ago when we were fresher off of the TWOIAF release and the P &Q release, there was more interest in n esoteric posts. LML's posts got a lot of love back then, and so did my Amethyst Empress thread. As a general rule though, long posts with depth get less love, because reading long posts takes time, and people are looking for quick diversions.

[Curled Finger]

I've been off for a couple of months and just recently came back on. It seems that the site reboot has reduced a bit of the activity. It also seems like about a year ago when we were fresher off of the TWOIAF release and the P &Q release, there was more interest in n esoteric posts. LML's posts got a lot of love back then, and so did my Amethyst Empress thread. As a general rule though, long posts with depth get less love, because reading long posts takes time, and people are looking for quick diversions.

Ain't that the truth.   Curiously, now that I've whined and asked and followed all the suggestions for reading I come to find there's still plenty of interesting and original stuff out there.   I just get so tired of the same things over and over and was amazed at the lack of response some really new and original ideas (at least to me) received.   The long posts are part of why I highly enjoy LmL's  new podcast.   I'm also really enjoying watching the conversations between you and Ser Knute.   It's akin to watching the theory of relatively stripped down and discussed in raw terms that even someone unfamiliar with all the quotients can follow.    I hope you both keep it up.   

[Curled Finger]

Mellisandre would know.  They were smuggled out of the island and taken somewhere.  The ones in KL were removed before the sack and taken somewhere.  Where?  That's the significance of the red door and the reason why the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard was away from the capital.  Aerys ordered them to hide the eggs.   Find the red door and you find the dragon eggs. It's the dragon dream calling to their future mother,  to draw her in, not a memory from the past.

Hey now that's a new one to me.   The red door is a premonition rather than a memory.   As prominent as Dany's story has been, the idea that all she's done to simply die or become the villain is sort of sad.   I'm not a team anyone really.   I like the 3 good guys (Sam, Davos & Brienne) because they are clearly good guys.   My favorite character (Tyrion) walks the thin line more than anyone in the story I think.   With Jon, Tyrion, Dany, Arya and Bran as the major characters I read what's written and hope they will do better, choose better and be real heroes.   I know it's sappy, but at this point Dany really is the last dragon.   Her contributions to the good of the realm could be enormous.