More people have to know about R+L=J besides Howland

[aryagonnakill#2]

The OP seems to be making an assumption that Jon needed to know.  I don't know where your getting that assumption from, because it seems pretty clear Ned never intended to let Jon seek the throne or even a lordship in the north.

[sciteacher]

I'm pretty sure Wylla the wet-nurse knows, based on this little exchange between Wylla Manderly and her mother.

The name Wylla should remind readers of Jon Snow and questions about his parentage. "You know nothing" is a phrase repeatedly uttered to Jon by Ygritte, and once by Mel too. (It's probably worth mentioning that people have sometimes viewed this phrase as a nod to the question of Jon's true identity, which would make sense, and certainly fits here.) In such close proximity to the other elements, the otherwise harmless "I know about the promise" should serve to remind the audience of Promise me, Ned.

So, this is GRRM's way of telling the reader that Wylla the wet-nurse knows about Ned's promise to Lyanna. And that promise has to do with Jon Snow and his true identity.

I admire the way you put that together with Wylla Manderly's speech. Good find.

Now, not to argue against it, but just because this has been bugging me ~I have this to say about Wylla the wet nurse, and wet nurses in general:

I see a lot of posters presuming there would be a wet nurse standing by at the birth because "high-born ladies didn't breastfeed their babies", but they did:

Many men fathered bastards. Catelyn had grown up with that knowledge. It came as no surprise to her, in the first year of her marriage, to learn that Ned had fathered a child on some girl chance met on campaign. He had a man's needs, after all, and they had spent that year apart, Ned off at war in the south while she remained safe in her father's castle at Riverrun. Her thoughts were more of Robb, the infant at her breast, than of the husband she scarcely knew. A Game of Thrones - Catelyn II

Roslin had a small gap between two of her front teeth that made her shy with her smiles, but the flaw was almost endearing. Pretty enough, Catelyn thought, but so small, and she comes of Rosby stock. The Rosbys had never been robust. She much preferred the frames of some of the older girls in the hall; daughters or granddaughters, she could not be sure. They had a Crakehall look about them, and Lord Walder's third wife had been of that House. Wide hips to bear children, big breasts to nurse them, strong arms to carry them.A Storm of Swords - Catelyn VI

Lady Sybelle's infant daughter was still on the breast, A Dance with Dragons - The Wayward Bride

Cersei is a mother too. No matter who fathered those children, she felt them kick inside her, brought them forth with her pain and blood, nursed them at her breast. A Clash of Kings - Tyrion IX

 

Of course, some women chose not to breastfeed and sometimes women can't for one reason or another.

[Lord Rodrick] "The winds were against us, and I had captives to concern me. Robett Glover's wife and children. The youngest is still at the breast, and Lady Glover's milk dried up during our crossing. I had no choice but to beach Black Wind upon the Stony Shore and send my men out to find a wet nurse. A Feast for Crows - The Kraken's Daughter

 

But there is no rush to find a wet nurse:

"I can find another wet nurse. If there's none amongst the wildlings, I will send to the mountain clans. Until such time, goat's milk should suffice for the boy, if it please Your Grace." A Dance with Dragons - Jon I

 

All of which means we don't know when or where Wylla crossed paths with Jon to be his milk mother.

She could have been at the birth.

She could have lived in the area.

She could have been at Starfall.

 

Edric Dayne was born 287, Jon Snow in 283. Even if Wylla was Jon's only wet nurse, he would have been done nursing in time for Wylla to go to Starfall.

Being a wet nurse was good employment for a woman in a medieval setting. You got a nice place to live, plenty of food, good living conditions. You might be asked to help out now and then but you wouldn't have had to do hard labor. You had to be healthy to nurse the precious babe, after all.

 

We don't know that Wylla was at WInterfell--the text only says Jon and his "wet nurse" were already there when Catelyn arrived and that Wylla had been the wet nurse at Starfall since before Edric (Ned) Dayne was born. It's possible Wylla was recommended to the Daynes by the Starks. Generally one did try to help servants find new employers and send them off with good recommendations if they had served you well--at least upper tier servants (tutors, wet nurses, nannies, for example).

 

[Ygrain]

All of which means we don't know when or where Wylla crossed paths with Jon to be his milk mother.

She could have been at the birth.

She could have lived in the area.

She could have been at Starfall.

 

The bolded is unlikely - if people at Starfall think that Wylla is Jon's mother, she can't have lived there at least 9 months before Jon's birth, because she wouldn't have had any chance to cross her path with Eddard. Either she had been missing from Starfall for quite some time, or originally came from somewhere else.

[Glenn of House Patrick]

If he ever told anyone other than Howland Reed, I'd wager on it being his mentor, Jon Arryn. Isn't Jon Snow named after Arryn? Ned fostered in the Eyrie, with Jon Arryn basically being Ned's other father. If he told Jon Arryn, maybe Arryn told his batty wife, who in turn leaked it to Littlefinger. Or maybe he muttered about it inadvertently on his deathbed. Of course, Jon Arryn is dead now, but there's a chance that Nee trusted him with the secret, and it could have potentially leaked to other parties. Crackpot? Highly likely. 

[The Wolves]

If he ever told anyone other than Howland Reed, I'd wager on it being his mentor, Jon Arryn. Isn't Jon Snow named after Arryn? Ned fostered in the Eyrie, with Jon Arryn basically being Ned's other father. If he told Jon Arryn, maybe Arryn told his batty wife, who in turn leaked it to Littlefinger. Or maybe he muttered about it inadvertently on his deathbed. Of course, Jon Arryn is dead now, but there's a chance that Nee trusted him with the secret, and it could have potentially leaked to other parties. Crackpot? Highly likely. 

Why would Ned tell Arryn him telling him has no point. 

[Glenn of House Patrick]

Why would Ned tell Arryn him telling him has no point. 

What point does he have in telling anyone else? It's just a suggestion, but I'll stick by my thoughts that if he would tell anyone it'd be Jon Arryn, a father figure who'd likely protect Jon Snow if it ever got out. This is all assuming that Ned would tell anyone at all, which is unlikely given his nature. 

[dornishdame]

The bolded is unlikely - if people at Starfall think that Wylla is Jon's mother, she can't have lived there at least 9 months before Jon's birth, because she wouldn't have had any chance to cross her path with Eddard. Either she had been missing from Starfall for quite some time, or originally came from somewhere else.

I would agree with this.  If it is even rumored around Starfall that Wylla is Jon's mother, then either she was at Starfall in the months leading up to his birth and was pregnant (then lost the child at birth) or she was away from Starfall at the time.  I have always leaned towards the latter.  I don't believe Rhaegar would expect either Lyanna or his kingsguard to do the cooking and cleaning at the Tower of Joy - someone must have done it. Rhaegar and Arthur Dayne were apparently close, and Starfall is not that far from the Tower of Joy.  It would be logical for Rhaegar to ask Arthur to request a discreet woman to come and look after them.  This could then make Wylla the other party in the 'they' with Howland. 

As for the OP question regarding others knowing Jon's parentage, I don't believe Ned ever told a soul who Jon's mother was.  I think that Benjen figured out the truth about Jon's parentage rather than hearing it directly from Ned.  In Thrones, Ned thinks that "Some secrets are safer kept hidden. Some secrets are too dangerous to share, even with those you love and trust."  Generally this is thought to be solely in relation to Catelyn's ignorance, but it could equally have been a reference to Benjen's. When Ned returned to Winterfell after the Rebellion, Catelyn was a stranger to him.  Benjen was not.  And in Thrones, when Maester Luwin mentions Benjen had spoken to him of Jon's interest in joining the Night's Watch, we see the action through Cat's perspective.  Therefore, we don't get to see Ned thinking about Benjen and Jon. That said, I do think that Benjen joined the dots and figured it out himself. 

As to Jon finding out, there is the recurring Winterfell Crypt dream.  I have always thought that Jon would eventually reach the conclusion of that dream, and in doing so discover his parentage.  Other than that, we are apparently going to meet Howland Reed at some point, though with Catelyn's BwB group around the Neck, it is possible that we may see him first in Jaime or Brienne's POV.  Perhaps Jon will discover his parentage through a dream, and then have it confirmed by Howland, or by someone to whom he transmits the information.  

 

[JonCon's Red Beard]

The people who is obviously gone from the story or hasn't yet appeared are the ones who know for sure. Otherwise, they would be heading to tell Jon.

Benjen knows. Him being gone not only provides a link with the Others but prevents him from talking to Jon and mention the topic.

Howland.

Wylla, if she's alive.

(and no, this doesn't mean EVERY MISSING CHARACTER knows).

[JonCon's Red Beard]

The people who is obviously gone from the story or hasn't yet appeared are the ones who know for sure. Otherwise, they would be heading to tell Jon.

Benjen knows. Him being gone not only provides a link with the Others but prevents him from talking to Jon and mention the topic.

Howland.

Wylla, if she's alive.

(and no, this doesn't mean EVERY MISSING CHARACTER knows).

[J. Stargaryen]

 

snip

You make some good points. I don't think one should automatically assume that Lyanna intended on using a wet nurse, or that it was automatic for highborn ladies. I think the issue in her case is that it became necessary, once she was no longer breastfeeding.

[dornishdame]

You make some good points. I don't think one should automatically assume that Lyanna intended on using a wet nurse, or that it was automatic for highborn ladies. I think the issue in her case is that it became necessary, once she was no longer breastfeeding.

I do agree with this, but at the same time I think we also need to consider some sort of care for Lyanna at the time of her child's birth.  In a castle, a highborn woman would be attended by a maester (Catelyn references Luwin's attendance at the births of her children, for example).  If no maester was present at the Tower of Joy, then does it not stand to reason that some sort of experienced woman would be called on to attend Lyanna?  I do not believe that such high-born men as the three kingsguard in attendance would leave a gentlewoman of Lyanna's standing to give birth alone.  Nor do I believe that the kingsguard duties would extend to assisting in childbirth.  Wylla may - as I have suggested upthread - been brought in to cook and clean, or she may have been brought in to assist with the birth.  And then, with Lyanna's death, the need for a wet nurse became an issue. 

[J. Stargaryen]

I do agree with this, but at the same time I think we also need to consider some sort of care for Lyanna at the time of her child's birth.  In a castle, a highborn woman would be attended by a maester (Catelyn references Luwin's attendance at the births of her children, for example).  If no maester was present at the Tower of Joy, then does it not stand to reason that some sort of experienced woman would be called on to attend Lyanna?  I do not believe that such high-born men as the three kingsguard in attendance would leave a gentlewoman of Lyanna's standing to give birth alone.  Nor do I believe that the kingsguard duties would extend to assisting in childbirth.  Wylla may - as I have suggested upthread - been brought in to cook and clean, or she may have been brought in to assist with the birth.  And then, with Lyanna's death, the need for a wet nurse became an issue. 

Right, and I certainly wasn't ruling out that possibility in my post. In fact, it makes a lot of sense that there was some sort of help at the tower. I was only responding to the discussion about whether or not Lyanna may have intended to use a wet nurse from the get go.

[Ygrain]

Right, and I certainly wasn't ruling out that possibility in my post. In fact, it makes a lot of sense that there was some sort of help at the tower. I was only responding to the discussion about whether or not Lyanna may have intended to use a wet nurse from the get go.

Perhaps not from the get to, but if her pregnancy turned out difficult or she was ailing towards its end, it would have been reasonable to have a wetnurse on the standby, just in case, especially if one may have been available after Ashara's pregnancy.

[~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

What bothers me is that people tend to think only Howland knows about R+L=J and for that he has to turn up in the upcoming book. I am convinced that Ned would tell Jon about his parentage. I also think of him as a smart and reasonable men, not one who would risk it all on Howland being the only one to know to truth. Especially if you`ve seen death and war that much.

Isn't it logical that he told someone besides Howland about the truth, someone who could tell Jon about it if both of them died ? He would take a big risk to only have two people, including him, know about it. What if Howland died before Neds's decapitation ? Nobody would ever know the truth. And I am not talking about the long lost MIA Benjen, who according to most has to suspect something.

What do you guys think and who could be told about it by Ned?

I don't think that the vast majority believe that it is only Howland Reed that knows of Jon's parentage.  There had to be a wet nurse, (perhaps the famed or defamed Willa) that fed the infant after Lyanna's death.

Ned did not tell Jon Snow who his parent's are that much is clear.  He agonized about it in the dungeon at the Red Keep.  Many believe he left proof in Lyanna's, and possibly Brandon's Crypt.

Something I noticed on the show as I was rewatching it yesterday, the statues of the old King's in the North and Lords of Winterfell don't have their swords laying across their laps as they do in the books.  I think that may be a plot line that will not be included in the show but may become important in the books.

I also think that there are other people who know.  We are not sure what really happened to Ashara Dayne.  Her body was never recovered.  I believe she knew who Jon really is and I'm not entirely sure that Sir Arthur is dead.  Why would Ned go all the way to Starfall to return the Sword Dawn but not bring Arthur's body with him?  It doesn't make sense.

Rhaegar went back to the Red Keep before going to the Trident.  He could have left proof somewhere in the Red Keep.  We don't really know, but it would seem odd that he go through all the trouble of making sure there was a Prince that was Promised and then leave no clues to anyone that he had finally arrived.

I think Cersei may suspect.  I've always wondered about this particular conversation:

"Honor," she spat. "How dare you play the noble lord with me! What do you take me for? You've a bastard of your own, I've seen him. Who was the mother, I wonder? Some Dornish peasant you raped while her holdfast burned? A whore? Or was it the grieving sister, the Lady Ashara? She threw herself into the sea, I'm told. Why was that? For the brother you slew, or the child you stole? Tell me, my honorable Lord Eddard, how are you any different from Robert, or me, or Jaime?"

[J. Stargaryen]

Perhaps not from the get to, but if her pregnancy turned out difficult or she was ailing towards its end, it would have been reasonable to have a wetnurse on the standby, just in case, especially if one may have been available after Ashara's pregnancy.

Oh, absolutely. And it might even make sense to have someone like Wylla around even before anything went wrong, to do things like cook and clean.

Though she was said to have nursed Jon and Edric Dayne, she served at Starfall for years and years, according to the latter. Which means she likely had other duties, and wet nursed part time. If by some chance midwifery was one of those other duties, that would really make her the ideal candidate to stay with Lyanna at the tower. Probably even even more so than a maester, since the chain gang's loyalties are questionable.

[Jon leaves the Watch]

I think there are a few people who are aware and have direct knowledge of Jon's parentage. I am believer in the theory that Howland is married to Ashara Dayne, and that Arthur Dayne is still alive and that they have just been at Greywater Watch the whole time. So that would give us at least 3 people other than Ned who would have direct knowledge of who Jon's parents are. I think that Benjen might have a pretty good idea, but I am not sure if he knows for sure.

[dornishdame]

Oh, absolutely. And it might even make sense to have someone like Wylla around even before anything went wrong, to do things like cook and clean.

Though she was said to have nursed Jon and Edric Dayne, she served at Starfall for years and years, according to the latter. Which means she likely had other duties, and wet nursed part time. If by some chance midwifery was one of those other duties, that would really make her the ideal candidate to stay with Lyanna at the tower. Probably even even more so than a maester, since the chain gang's loyalties are questionable.

Absolutely - we only have to look at Old Nan, who originally came to Winterfell as a wet nurse and stayed on for the remainder of her working life. 

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Perhaps not from the get to, but if her pregnancy turned out difficult or she was ailing towards its end, it would have been reasonable to have a wetnurse on the standby, just in case, especially if one may have been available after Ashara's pregnancy.

Actually, considering it's highly unlikely the KG was planning to stay in TOJ forever, they would be hoping to travel and they definitely needed ladies to tend both Lyanna and the baby (and themselves).

[Silvershank]

For people wondering why I think of Ned telling Jon about his parentage: I am somewhat convinced that Ned feels guilty and perhaps even hurted because Jon is carrying a heavy burden due to being a bastard while most likely he is a true highbor.

I am guessing that in time he would have told him who he truly is or would have made sure someone informed Jon about it.

[dornishdame]

   Ned did not tell Jon Snow who his parent's are that much is clear.  He agonized about it in the dungeon at the Red Keep.  Many believe he left proof      in Lyanna's, and possibly Brandon's Crypt.

Something I noticed on the show as I was rewatching it yesterday, the statues of the old King's in the North and Lords of Winterfell don't have their swords laying across their laps as they do in the books.  I think that may be a plot line that will not be included in the show but may become important in the books.

I have just finished re-reading Clash, and in the concluding Bran chapter it is mentioned that he, Osha and Meera have all taken swords from statues as they move towards the surface following Bran's wolf-dream of the burning of Winterfell.  Bran takes the sword belonging to the statue of his uncle and namesake, Brandon, Osha takes the one intended for Ned's statue, and Meera takes the sword lying on Rickard's lap.  As I read it and recalled the numerous mention of the eeriness of the crypts and the idea that the swords are intended to serve the dual purpose of denying guest right (perhaps that is where Jon gets the sense that the crypts are not his place) and ensuring that the spirits of the dead do not escape.  Perhaps it will come to be significant that those three were chosen, beyond the fact that they were the most recent?