Who will be Sansa's final husband?

[sweetsunray]

No, it doesn't. It illustrates how she still wants it, but believes she can't get it. And while Sandor's unkiss intrudes on her thoughts like a limerescent, her conscious thought process about it is not positive.

That said, I think she will realize that she wants Sandor. But she doesn't recognize that yet, and she's still amenable to the hope of having a Loras for herself.

[Le Cygne]

No, that's completely off.

[sweetsunray]

Ly Cygne, that's your opinion.

I think you are the best in finding the references to show that Sandor is her heart choice. You convinced me of that long ago. But we completely disagree on where Sansa stands now with regards to her infatuation with a Loras. You only give assertions when it comes to her Loras infatuations and often tell me how wrongly I interprete things, but it's no more than an opinion. So, I'm sticking to my interpretation for myself, and I have as much right as anybody else to point it out for readers who didn't make up their mind yet.

We agree on the heart outcome, but we disagree on the process and timing of it.

[Le Cygne]

No. That's the story.

And Sandor's unkiss? SHE MADE UP THE KISS. The kiss is coming from HER.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

20 minutes ago, Woman of War said:

 No character has to prove that he "deserves" Sansa, she is not the jackpot in a shipping lottery. A marriage of any character to Sansa would be a plot part important for the story as a whole, not a special gift of happiness for the character Sansa because she deserves happiness any more than Shireen, Brienne or Cat. Nor would would marrying her be a special gift of happiness to the male character concerned. 

Funny because this is exactly what I often feel you do. 

See Sansa as nothing more than a reward for Tyrion, to get a pretty wife. You don't ever discuss her as a character at all, she is only ever a vacuous doll to award to your favourite. Or punish for not wanting him; by imagining all manor of hidious fates for her. 

And you also entirely miss the thoughts of people regarding Sansa, and what she "deserves". No one thinks she deserves a nice happy ending, because she is "lovely" or been through too much,  so we engineer some romance for her. 

Not at all, the predictions and ideas about what may occur are based entirely upon the story. and the clues peppered throughout by the author. He has begun a particular type of story for her, a romance, a coming of age, a self awakening, a realisation of what really matters in life. She almost in some respects has a morality tale element. 

Her story is very different to the one he initially envisioned for her. I think it is a better story myself far more sophisticated. It's not some bright perfect trajectory towards being a gleaming beacon of perfect protagonist at all. But it has a direction. simply abandoning it and playing princesses as prizes would be really shit writing, as would abandoning her character progression to play a game of punish the pretty girl. 

It's a sham that these two tired old naff scenario's are the only thing you can comprahend. 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

37 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

What you miss is that she's over Loras. She thinks of him, and then immediately thinks of Sandor. The rose yields to the Beast. So the author is USING Loras as literary device to show us how much she cares about SANDOR.

The rose is Beauty and the Beast. Loras gives her the rose, but then the rose yields to the Beast. He spells it out in the tourney scene. The day is yours, Loras tells the Hound.

And she remembers afterwards, Sandor was the champion at her father's tourney. Is this ringing a bell? Father? Rose? Beast? Yes, it's symbolic, the plucked rose. Now fit it into the proper story.

She thinks she could think of kissing Loras. But tells herself no, that didn't mean what she thought it meant. Which is what she said before, long ago! She's already gotten the memo. And been grooving on the Beast. So she instantly goes into kissing Sandor.

And here's the kicker, this is one of many literary techniques he employs to show importance. He does this throughout. Like you'll see Jon thinking of his family and he saves Arya for last, because she's special to him.

Sansa replaces the thought of Loras with the thought of Sandor! The rose yields to the Beast, even in her last chapter in book 4, he's carrying through the BatB story he set up in book 1 when he gave Sandor the Beast's lines, and had the rose yield to the Beast.

So just like she replaces Tyrion with Sandor (and oh, by the way, Tyrion could NEVER be the Beast, in fact, he's the wanna be rose, he says he's the Knight of Flowers in the dark, and Sansa says never, BatB is a story of sexual awakening and one thing is super clear, she doesn't want Tyrion, no way, no how), she replaces Loras with Sandor.

And here's the beautiful part, she calls Sandor "he" - just like she did in the dream, she doesn't have to name him, because she's thought of him so often. That's another literary technique. We know this, too, because she told us, she's been lying in bed awake at night thinking about Sandor.

He gives us many hints throughout the story. She thinks about Sandor all the time, he's very important to her, from book 1 through book 4. And if you look closely, he's all over the new chapter, too.

Harry? No way in hell.

Hidden Content

Lots more, this isn't the forum for all of that, but he's calling back to things with Sansa and Sandor, he does that all the time. He called back to the Blackwater scene all the time because it's SUPER important, it brought all the feelings beneath the surface to the next phase, for both of them.

Spot on!

[Woman of War]

39 minutes ago, Woman of War said:

http://watchersonthewall.com/a-song-of-ice-and-fire-theory-poll-results-the-conclusion/#more-54075

Actually San/San is not really populr among fandom, only the fans of this theory are very active:

these are the poll results of Westeros.org and of Watchersonthewall hat were published on Watchersonthewall

will San/San occur?

Yes.  10	10.2 %
Partially	21	21.4 %
No	62	63.3 %
Don't Know/No Opinion	5

yes. 112	6.4 %
Partially	285	16.4 %
No	1279	73.6 %
Don't Know/No Opinion	62

 

Now of course this does not mean that any form of San/San will never occur since Martinis free to write unpopular stuff. It just means that San/San, in whatever shape, is not really popular.

 

 

37 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

Yes, it's super popular. Certain segments are in denial, we see that at certain fan sites where they dominate, but that's just a drop in the bucket. There are three super popular pairings, Sansa/Sandor, Jaime/Brienne, and Arya/Gendry.

The Riverlanders have ventured out! I think we all have a soft spot for Sandor.

Are you joking!!?? San/San super  popular? You might be in denial

[Le Cygne]

9 hours ago, Karmarni said:

She's asked if she knows what goes on in the marriage bed (marriage bed!), and she says:

How he kissed her. That's an awful lot of thinking and references about a man who has tossed her a cloak and left one behind, that she huddled on the floor under after getting up out of her bed to do so.

Given the omnipresent power of three, my conjecture is that third cloak definitely makes an appearance.

Meant to comment on this. Yes, the story. The story is everything. And it's a damn good one.

The power of three. There is going to be a third time. A thousand times she dreamed of a man tall and strong who gave her his cloak and kissed her, and a man tall and strong gave her his cloak and... well, she added the kiss!

The song of Sansa and the Hound. Sansa is writing it now.

[sweetsunray]

14 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

14 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

(Sunray: to myself... stupid quote function)

No. That's the story.

And Sandor's unkiss? SHE MADE UP THE KISS. The kiss is coming from HER.

Le Cygne, the story has Sansa thinking she wants to imagine it's Loras kissing her. She then tells herself that it's never going to happen, because Alayne was born on the wrong side of the blanket. She then can't help but think of her invented kiss, which is described as an intruding thought (aka a limerescent), and she consciously describes it as "cruel" and "all he left her".

That's the story.

The rest is interpretation. I interprete it as Sansa still desiring a kiss from Loras, but trying not to desire it by telling herself there's no hope. And then the limerescent competes with the infatuation. Your interpretation is that she stopped desiring the infatuation and that the limerescent is all there is. Calling your interpretation "the story" does not make it so. Nor do I claim my interpretation is "the story". It is my interpretation, which I am compeltely free to make. And what I introduce is "what happens if there is hope in the form of HtH?". Adn no, I wouldn't jduge HtH just yet on the bad first impression he made.

[Le Cygne]

No, the story is the whole story. You can't pick and choose parts. It's the story from books 1 through 4.

She made up the kiss! That's HUGE! And she's sorry he left her! That's HUGE!

And it's also telling that she digs those cruel kisses a la Dany digging them. She doesn't want the chaste Loras kiss. She wants the wild Beast kiss. The rose yields to the Beast.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

29 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

 

Before she could summon the servants, however, Sweetrobin threw his skinny arms around her and kissed her. It was a little boy's kiss, and clumsy. Everything Robert Arryn did was clumsy. If I close my eyes I can pretend he is the Knight of Flowers. Ser Loras had given Sansa Stark a red rose once, but he had never kissed her . . . and no Tyrell would ever kiss Alayne Stone. Pretty as she was, she had been born on the wrong side of the blanket.

As the boy's lips touched her own she found herself thinking of another kiss. She could still remember how it felt, when his cruel mouth pressed down on her own. He had come to Sansa in the darkness as green fire filled the sky. He took a song and a kiss, and left me nothing but a bloody cloak. (aFfC, Alayne II)

I interpret this particular quote differently. 

to me she is thinking eww, gross, ok got to let the little lord kiss me, so she borrows from Tyrion that if she closes her eyes, this kiss she does not want could be from the Knight of Flowers. A recognised by all good looking guy, one we know she has found attractive. BUT she goes on to acknowledge that whilst he had once given her a red rose he never kissed her, IE: she knows that he doesn't fancy her, and it wasn't ever going to happen, she then notes that NO Tyrell would ever have her know (so no Willas) she is atainted, they are entwined with the Lannisters. And as pretty as she is; Allayne can't wed a High born of such prestige. basically she knows she is screwed her options for marriage have disappeared. 

But then she remembers the other kiss, well that pairing is not dependant upon status, and he does want her. Unlike Loras.

She remembers how it felt, or rather she fantasises about how it would have felt, this tells us what sansa is desiring sexually, as it is all her own invention. she makes it sound romantic, & sexy, and a bit tragic(he left her),he has a cruel mouth this is stand in for the kiss was rough. there is green light filling the sky, he took a song ie: she gave him her heart, and he left her with nothing but a bloody cloak. But oh what that cloak symbolises!!

That petulant he left me, whah!!! is all very telling, he didn't leave her, she refused to go with him, she is re writing events to suit how she feels now. 

[sweetsunray]

2 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

No, the story is the whole story. You can't pick and choose parts. It's the story from books 1 through 4.

I don't pick and choose parts. BUt we were discussing that paragraph.

[Le Cygne]

No, I was discussing the whole story. Always do.

But you missed a lot in that chapter, too.

[Woman of War]

29 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Funny because this is exactly what I often feel you do.

See Sansa as nothing more than a reward for Tyrion, to get a pretty wife. You don't ever discuss her as a character at all, she is only ever a vacuous doll to award to your favourite. Or punish for not wanting him; by imagining all manor of hidious fates for her. 

And you also entirely miss the thoughts of people regarding Sansa, and what she "deserves". No one thinks she deserves a nice happy ending, because she is "lovely" or been through too much,  so we engineer some romance for her. 

Not at all, the predictions and ideas about what may occur are based entirely upon the story. and the clues peppered throughout by the author. He has begun a particular type of story for her, a romance, a coming of age, a self awakening, a realisation of what really matters in life. She almost in some respects has a morality tale element. 

Her story is very different to the one he initially envisioned for her. I think it is a better story myself far more sophisticated. It's not some bright perfect trajectory towards being a gleaming beacon of perfect protagonist at all. But it has a direction. simply abandoning it and playing princesses as prizes would be really shit writing, as would abandoning her character progression to play a game of punish the pretty girl. 

[It's a sham that these two tired old naff scenario's are the only thing you can comprahend.

Then, sorry to say, you may have misunderstood most of what I ever wrote. A game to punish the pretty girl??? Why should I dislike pretty girls? Your answer is a bit or very much cheap. Apart from that, the only one who plays games with us is the author.

I may have a different interpretation of some characters than you have. You have to accept that, full stop. Or do you seriously expect the whole world to agree with you???

We all are just speculating  and we all may be absurdly wrong in the end.

What was the topic? The 1000000th San/San thread or  Sansa's  final husband?

[sweetsunray]

3 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

No, I was discussing the whole story. Always do.

But you missed a lot in that chapter, too.

And I discuss the whole story too... You're correct, I did not quote the complete chapter. So, what? I showed the paragpraph relating to the Loras infatuation, which we disagree on regarding it being over or not. And to that we will have to agree to disagree.

[Le Cygne]

8 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

She remembers how it felt, or rather she fantasises about how it would have felt, this tells us what sansa is desiring sexually, as it is all her own invention. she makes it sound romantic, & sexy, and a bit tragic(he left her),he has a cruel mouth this is stand in for the kiss was rough. there is green light filling the sky, he took a song ie: she gave him her heart, and he left her with nothing but a bloody cloak. But oh what that cloak symbolises!!

That petulant he left me, whah!!! is all very telling, he didn't leave her, she refused to go with him, she is re writing events to suit how she feels now. 

Yes, she's singing their song, she's telling their story. Sansa and the Hound. Sandor is the one she's putting in her song, and in her marriage bed. Because of how he kissed her. A kiss she wants and has thought of so often, Sandor is the "he" in her story.

It's a beautiful story, beautifully told. He's done a great job with this, it's his masterpiece, in terms of romance. The care and attention to detail is amazing.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

Just now, Woman of War said:

Then, sorry to say, you may have misunderstood most of what I wrote. A game to punish the pretty girl??? Your answer is a bit or very much cheap. Apart from that, the only one who plays games with us is the author.

i may have a different interpretation of some characters than you have. You have to accept that, full stop.

You never discuss her as a character ever! I've been here since April 2013, I've seen enough of your posts to know that. You only discuss her is terms of what awful thing may happen to her, or how she might see the light and realise Tyrion is right for her.

You never talk about her as a "person" only ever in terms of how she may be utilised by others. 

It isn't cheap,it is simply my observation. 

[Karmarni]

Loras is burned, most likely. That's an interesting development. Burned Kingsguard knight. We'll have to see what becomes of that.

Sansa wants what Sansa wants, but she also "wants" what the author wants her to "want." That's where jumping from the line/paragraph/chapter/book/series levels goes from interpretation of the novel to interpretation of authorial intent. What works best for the plot is moving it forward. Sansa would be doing that, but she has her current antagonist, Littlefinger, working against her. It's a devious, twisted little man who's doing it, and so far she's going along with it. He's her "father," her "protector", she basically has to.

However, from the beginning, we see that when she first meets Sandor Clegane, she thinks he's her father. He then becomes her protector. Progressively speaking, from one book to the next, it seems that the character is being massaged into someone who will return to that first encounter. The marriage fable meets it's end with Sandor Clegane who's not her father, is her protector, and gives her the real kiss and the third cloak. Where's that she always dreamed of a tall knight quote? Can't find it right now.

[Le Cygne]

At your service.

Quote

She had dreamed of her wedding a thousand times, and always she had pictured how her betrothed would stand behind her tall and strong, sweep the cloak of his protection over her shoulders, and tenderly kiss her cheek as he leaned forward to fasten the clasp.

 

[sweetsunray]

9 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

I interpret this particular quote differently. 

to me she is thinking eww, gross, #1 ok got to let the little lord kiss me, so she borrows from Tyrion that if she closes her eyes, this kiss she does not want could be from the Knight of Flowers. A recognised by all good looking guy, one we know she has found attractive. #2 BUT she goes on to acknowledge that whilst he had once given her a red rose he never kissed her, IE: she knows that he doesn't fancy her, and it wasn't ever going to happen, she then notes that NO Tyrell would ever have her know (so no Willas) she is atainted, they are entwined with the Lannisters. #3 And as pretty as she is; Allayne can't wed a High born of such prestige. basically she knows she is screwed her options for marriage have disappeared. 

But then she remembers the other kiss, well that pairing is not dependant upon status, and he does want her. Unlike Loras.

She remembers how it felt, or rather she fantasises about how it would have felt, #4 this tells us what sansa is desiring sexually, as it is all her own invention. #5 she makes it sound romantic, & sexy, and a bit tragic(he left her),he has a cruel mouth #6 this is stand in for the kiss was rough. there is green light filling the sky, he took a song ie: she gave him her heart, and he left her with nothing but a bloody cloak. But oh what that cloak symbolises!!

That petulant he left me, whah!!! is all very telling, he didn't leave her, she refused to go with him, she is re writing events to suit how she feels now. 

#1. Interesting reference, and not without foundation. But it still ends up being Loras and a thought process of disappointment

#2. Yup, she's trying to be an adult here and tell herself it's delusional.

#3. That too she tells herself. She's telling herself there's no hope. But LF later waves that gloomy thought process off the table. And here the question becomes interesting for Sansa: what happens if there is hope for her to be kissed and desired by a man that has similarities to Loras? That's why I think HtH has become the item. And for it to be completely dismissed by Sansa in her heart forever and ever, I think we'll have to follow Sansa into that HtH rabbit hole.

#4. Agreed.

#5. I'm sorry but I do not find that invented memory, described as it is in that paragraph romantic or sexy, not even to Sansa's conscious mind at the time. I do find the actual scene romantic and sexy.

#6. The word she uses is cruel. Cruel is not rough to me. The cruel can be interpreted in various ways: as a projection of Sandor as a cruel, heartless man, or as Sandor being cruel to her for leaving her with his cloak after taking from her what he wanted.

I would say that the paragraph about Sandor's unkiss is ambivalent and very ambiguous. And that's one of the reasons I regard Sansa by the end of book 4 to be consciously ambivalent about Sandor. Yes, I agree she wants him. Yes, I agree that it's her fantasy. But most of all it's a limerescent: an obsessively intruding replaying of a memory (and a false one at that), and I'm not using that term as a negative. A limerescent is far more promising than an infatuation is, because one is how an experience made her feel, while the infatuation stems more from a idealized projection and admiration. But she is not yet conscious of the fact that she considers Sandor sexy or the bedroom events romantic, nor is she even consciously persuaded that she wants it.