I think Jon vs Dany is the real dance of dragons

[Pancakes1800]

Actually, I am interested in reading that. It's a better narrative decision imo, than having a battle of dragons vs ice zombies. For the whole of five books, the white walkers have remained in the background. Do you truly think there's going to be an apocalyptic war in book 6 and seven? I don't. The real war has always been between men, and it will remain between men.

The human heart in conflict. That's what GRRM likes to write about. Whether you look at the war of the roses, the accursed Kings, or MS & T from Tad Williams, all that have inspired GRRM to write, you are dealing with a war of succession. MS & T has some mythical Sithi sort of elves mixed into it - but the main war is between men. 

That's not to say I don't believe the WW will be more important in the next books, only that for those in the south they will remain a distant threat, and that it's truly only the north that will face the brunt force of winter...

also, Pancakes, Qarth declared war on Meereen. There's not much avoiding that. Xaro Xhoan Daxos came to Meereen to speak peace but handed Dany a bloody glove instead.

This is a fantasy series, where the end game is fight for all humanity against the Others, pretty sure GRRM has more or less confirmed this.  The very first chapter of the entire series dealt with the Others, not a conflict between people.  I never said that both TWOW and ADOS will about an apocalyptic war against the Others.  I think TWOW is about preparing/uniting the North the fight the Others and if TWOW has an epilogue then I think the Wall falls in that chapter if not then in the prologue of ADOS.  There's definitely enough material in the North to last until the end of TWOW before the Wall falls.  I meant Dany is not going to travel to Qarth to deal with them.  She'll deal with the current ones in Slaver's Bay then move on, there's just not enough time for her to go to Qarth.  

[Liz Stark-Targaryen]

Your analysis is a bit more interesting than most "Jon vs Dany" theories in that it does have them working together against the WW which to me is consistent with both of their characters and doesn't require either of them to act completely evil/out of character or rely on a turnaround like "the WW are really the good guys and only dragons are a real threat, donchaknow"

yet it disappointingly ends up going the same way as all of them do.  Which is that inexplicably and out of character Dany suddenly turns into a raging psycho that turns on her allies, won't listen to reason, and starts burning down castles/innocent civilians.

Like most of these analysis it ends up  with "girl be crazy" as the final "twist".  How boring.  

ETA: I certainly hope if Jon vs Dany happens that there is a damn good reason for both of them to act the way they do. And I'm sure there will be - if anything is true about GRRMs writing it's that he prioritizes character first.  Unlike most fan theories.

The bolded is why I say "nope" to most theories of Jon vs. Dany. Always requires an evil irrational Dany cliche in order to work. Always.

[Liz Stark-Targaryen]

Jon and Dany are not going to go to war against each other.  For starters, there just isn't enough time.  First fAegon must defeat the Lannisters and take the Iron Throne, then Dany must defeat them, and finally we have the war vs the Others.  The War vs the Others is the end game of this story, not some stupid war between Jon and Dany.  Secondly, a war between the 2 doesn't make any narrative sense.  Finally,  I think a lot of fans want a war between Jon and Dany because they want a "gray" story and think that a war vs Others is too black and white.  I'm not saying that Jon and Dany will be BFFs or anything, I'm sure they will have arguments and disagreements and conflicts, but they are not going to try and kill each other.  

This. GRRM would need 3-4 more books to set up Jon vs. Dany plausibly, and even then, it would need to happen after the War against the Others. There's simply not enough narrative time.

I don't see the set up for a DOD 2.0.  Maybe a lame Blackfyre resurgence, but please.  There are only 3, possibly only 2, dragons so it's not even a blip on the radar.  The DOD was dragon on dragon carnage with mere mortals taking sides and suffering incalculable losses. It couldn't even be a true DOD or hope to achieve the spectacle devastation that was the original.   Dany will ride in and that will be that.   To the more or less subtle overtone of Targ on Targ, I can't see it happening unless there are new Targs appearing from out of nowhere.   If the name and bloodline is to continue someone is going to have to want to have a baby with Dany.   We currently only have 2 options and both are watered down.  Westeros is an unstable realm, already deeply divided with those in power having diminished capacity in the wake of war and winter.  Now Aegon's skipping along to amass enough destruction to impress Dany.   I call it paving the way because only a true moron would look upon her coming with a massive army and frickin dragons and frickin dothraki and frickin unsullied and not drop to their knees.   If Aegon is all we are told he is he will rise above whatever machinations and scheming Arienne and Doran have and keep his eye on the prize.  Jon doesn't want to be the ruler of anything.    He wants to know who his mother is and he wants to protect his family and home including the entire North.   He doesn't want to be king of anything.   I seriously doubt we will get more than a year or 2 more in universe and it seems to me that there is an awful lot to do in that short time that doesn't include the main protagonists annihilating each other.

Absolutely. GRRM very clearly hasn't set Jon vs. Dany up. People are reading into the text and comparing popular stories they know. In doing so, they're missing the story that GRRM is actually telling: a parallel story about these two characters.

Eh, nope. There is zero foreshadowing to them fighting. And it makes no sense. Why would Dany fight Jon? Why would Jon fight Dany? There's no reason for them to do that. 

But of course. It's just a logic fail. I'd be disappointed in GRRM if he does a 180 with either of these characters.

[Neds Secret]

I don't see the set up for a DOD 2.0.  Maybe a lame Blackfyre resurgence, but please.  There are only 3, possibly only 2, dragons so it's not even a blip on the radar.  The DOD was dragon on dragon carnage with mere mortals taking sides and suffering incalculable losses. It couldn't even be a true DOD or hope to achieve the spectacle devastation that was the original.   Dany will ride in and that will be that.   To the more or less subtle overtone of Targ on Targ, I can't see it happening unless there are new Targs appearing from out of nowhere.   If the name and bloodline is to continue someone is going to have to want to have a baby with Dany.   We currently only have 2 options and both are watered down.  Westeros is an unstable realm, already deeply divided with those in power having diminished capacity in the wake of war and winter.  Now Aegon's skipping along to amass enough destruction to impress Dany.   I call it paving the way because only a true moron would look upon her coming with a massive army and frickin dragons and frickin dothraki and frickin unsullied and not drop to their knees.   If Aegon is all we are told he is he will rise above whatever machinations and scheming Arienne and Doran have and keep his eye on the prize.  Jon doesn't want to be the ruler of anything.    He wants to know who his mother is and he wants to protect his family and home including the entire North.   He doesn't want to be king of anything.   I seriously doubt we will get more than a year or 2 more in universe and it seems to me that there is an awful lot to do in that short time that doesn't include the main protagonists annihilating each other.

that makes a lot of sense

[Curled Finger]

This. GRRM would need 3-4 more books to set up Jon vs. Dany plausibly, and even then, it would need to happen after the War against the Others. There's simply not enough narrative time.

Absolutely. GRRM very clearly hasn't set Jon vs. Dany up. People are reading into the text and comparing popular stories they know. In doing so, they're missing the story that GRRM is actually telling: a parallel story about these two characters.

But of course. It's just a logic fail. I'd be disappointed in GRRM if he does a 180 with either of these characters.

Certainly Jon will experience some sort of metamorphosis but I seriously doubt it's going to take him so far from his core character that he becomes unrecognizable.   Ditto for Danny and her spirit walk.  Their stories do parallel (as you keenly point out) and these next changes will be no different from all the others they've experienced to become the HERO WARRIOR CONQUERORS they are obviously written to be..but are still learning to become.  

that makes a lot of sense

I'm not usually that adamantly dismissive in making a point.   Jojen paste is normally the only thing that gets me riled.  The DOD was awesome in the terrible sense and a tragedy beyond measure.   These characters don't have any of the machinations to even think about pulling one off.  

[Lord Friendzone]

This. GRRM would need 3-4 more books to set up Jon vs. Dany plausibly, and even then, it would need to happen after the War against the Others. There's simply not enough narrative time.

Absolutely. GRRM very clearly hasn't set Jon vs. Dany up. People are reading into the text and comparing popular stories they know. In doing so, they're missing the story that GRRM is actually telling: a parallel story about these two characters.

But of course. It's just a logic fail. I'd be disappointed in GRRM if he does a 180 with either of these characters.

Really 3 or 4 books? Ehm not sure about this...it could take one book to be plausible. George is certainly capable of that.

Hopefully that's not case, but how can you explain his dream of himself armored in black ice and Dany slaying Usurper's host armored in ice. Kinda weird to be a coincidence. I don't want them to fight, but as you see. I think they'll clash at least with ideologies. They're similiar and yet different in many ways.

Certainly Jon will experience some sort of metamorphosis but I seriously doubt it's going to take him so far from his core character that he becomes unrecognizable.   Ditto for Danny and her spirit walk.  Their stories do parallel (as you keenly point out) and these next changes will be no different from all the others they've experienced to become the HERO WARRIOR CONQUERORS they are obviously written to be..but are still learning to become.  

He'll be different ,but not entirely. George just can't thrown the development of his charcter over the course of book into the trash. Of course experience like this wil c hange and who wouldn't be changed. If I understand this correctly, so you're saying Dany and Jon in the end on IT as conquerors. To me they're being setp as two main heroes, saviours and leaders for the war of dawn. Conquerors in Dany's case, not Jon's.

[Curled Finger]

Really 3 or 4 books? Ehm not sure about this...it could take one book to be plausible. George is certainly capable of that.

Hopefully that's not case, but how can you explain his dream of himself armored in black ice and Dany slaying Usurper's host armored in ice. Kinda weird to be a coincidence. I don't want them to fight, but as you see. I think they'll clash at least with ideologies. They're similiar and yet different in many ways.

He'll be different ,but not entirely. George just can't thrown the development of his charcter over the course of book into the trash. Of course experience like this wil c hange and who wouldn't be changed. If I understand this correctly, so you're saying Dany and Jon in the end on IT as conquerors. To me they're being setp as two main heroes, saviours and leaders for the war of dawn. Conquerors in Dany's case, not Jon's.

Not exactly. Certainly Jon and Dany will have separate jobs, Dany's being to conquer and bring fire back to elemental Westeros. (To be fair someone has to rule everyone--it's chaos without rule)   Jon's to  be a leader (not exclusive of war) in establishing peace in bringing balance to both fire and ice and Bran to be the saviour of all humanity, putting ice in check for eternity.  Or something along those lines.  It's become a moving target lately. Clearly Jon and Dany will lead and Bran will pull all the strings and call the shots.     I have no doubt Jon's parentage will figure into this whole thing in some way I've yet to really understand, but all the identity issues these characters have will be resolved whether they like it or not.   I read 3 characters, not 2 is all. 

[OldGimletEye]

Eh, nope. There is zero foreshadowing to them fighting. And it makes no sense. Why would Dany fight Jon? Why would Jon fight Dany? There's no reason for them to do that. 

Jon and Dany will get married and then will get into a fight about Jon leaving the toilet seat up, culminating in the worst civil war Westeros has ever seen.

[LongRider]

Jon and Dany will get married and then will get into a fight about Jon leaving the toilet seat up, culminating in the worst civil war Westeros has ever seen.

No way OGE!   There is zero foreshadowing for toilet seats.  They have privies.

[OldGimletEye]

No way OGE!   There is zero foreshadowing for toilet seats.  They have privies.

Good point. Maybe it starts over what to watch on movie night. Jon insist on watching Pretty Woman, while Dany insist they watch The Wild Bunch.

[LongRider]

Good point. Maybe it starts over what to watch on movie night. Jon insist on watching Pretty Woman, while Dany insist they watch the The Wild Bunch.

That's it, it all boils down to the age old question....Who really is in control of the remote?   That's what really matters.

[I_eat_unicorns]

The bolded is why I say "nope" to most theories of Jon vs. Dany. Always requires an evil irrational Dany cliche in order to work. Always.

Idk man, that seems a bit dismissive considering the whole quenten scenario, and in the show she fed suspects to her dragons. I would say there's some build up to her becoming the antagonist, considering the way she's been conquering the cities in essos.

 

But yeah, the thing that goes against this theory like others have said is time. It would almost require them to fight after the beat the whitewalkers, I can't see them fighting during the whitewalker invasion, or maybe grrm can surprise us and pull that off.

 

They decided to take out faegon from the show, probably cause he will die like really early in twow from a crossbolt or something. Or he doesn't really contribute to the overall plot.

Obviously jon and dany are gonna meet, seeing how tyrion met dany in the show, and tyrion is the only person to have met both jon and dany, so he'll probably introduce them to one another. How they meet is probably gonna be one of the biggest highlights of the series, considering they had all this parallel build up, and we see how it unfolds. I swear tho, if the show does the whole love at first sight thing, I'll barf. 

Like I said in my op tho, they would have to meet early in the ww invasion, and start a great relationship, but then have it turn sour.

[Greymoon]

This is a fantasy series, where the end game is fight for all humanity against the Others, pretty sure GRRM has more or less confirmed this.  The very first chapter of the entire series dealt with the Others, not a conflict between people.  I never said that both TWOW and ADOS will about an apocalyptic war against the Others.  I think TWOW is about preparing/uniting the North the fight the Others and if TWOW has an epilogue then I think the Wall falls in that chapter if not then in the prologue of ADOS.  There's definitely enough material in the North to last until the end of TWOW before the Wall falls.  I meant Dany is not going to travel to Qarth to deal with them.  She'll deal with the current ones in Slaver's Bay then move on, there's just not enough time for her to go to Qarth.  

Memory, Sorrow and Thorn is a fantasy series as well, and it has more fantasy in it than asoiaf. Not a good argument. We expect 8 books, we've had five so far. Five books that deal with a war of succession. You are telling me that is not the main topic of asoiaf? if the war for dawn is the main topic, then there's some problems with how much time GRRM spend on the war of the five kings and its aftermath.

Similarly, if Dany just abandons Slaver's bay after burning Meereen, then her whole narrative up until now makes absolutely no sense. The end game is not the war for the dawn. There's not going to be a zombie apocalypse. There's going to be men fighting each other and making awful decisions, while the WW will continue or increase their efforts to subjugate humanity the way they've always done - by raiding, by staying in the shadows, by staying invisible and making the enemy fear them.

You know the threat is there, because its cold and the night is never ending. But you don't see it. The men disappear and you can't do anything to stop it....and many of those that aren't in the north and haven't met the enemy face to face, won't belief the threat exists at all.

This. GRRM would need 3-4 more books to set up Jon vs. Dany plausibly, and even then, it would need to happen after the War against the Others. There's simply not enough narrative time.

Absolutely. GRRM very clearly hasn't set Jon vs. Dany up. People are reading into the text and comparing popular stories they know. In doing so, they're missing the story that GRRM is actually telling: a parallel story about these two characters.

But of course. It's just a logic fail. I'd be disappointed in GRRM if he does a 180 with either of these characters.

Why? What I don't get is how people think there's enough narrative time for them to fight alongside each other? In matters of "narrative time" Jon vs Dany requires less build up than Jon & Dany as allies.

It's not a matter of comparing "popular stories" it is a matter of pointing out how much time GRRM spend on the war of succession (and how we can't expect a quick resolution of the conflict), and of timing (+ foreshadowing, but I won't get into that now, because I frankly don't have the tie, this morning).

Anyway...Timing. When does Dany land in Westeros? After the north has reunited or before? After Aegon has won the IT or before? If the answer to these questions is after - which seems likely, considering her current predicament - then Dany is very clearly being set up as an invader, an antagonist. Not the "savior" of westeros, because westeros will have saved itself already, at least from the Bolotns, Frey and Lannister. It's too easy to sweep in after all the fighting is done and to claim the crown under pretense of being the mother of dragons.

And she's not going to be the sole savior of human kind, because Viserion and Rhaegal aren't hers. She hatched them, but they will have other riders, some of those might not be loyal to Dany at all.

I don't understand you argument about parallel journeys. Since when are two characters that have a parallel journey predestined to become allies? Opposites often have parallel journeys.

The last clue is found in the first draft. Dany was meant as an antagonist. Sure, the story has changed. But has it changed that much?

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

Wrong  war , Aegon's   conquest .

[Lord Buckethead]

15 hours ago, Makk said:

The Blackfyre Rebellions were not considered to be a dance of dragons. Is this because there were no Targaryens or no Dragons? Can anyone actually see fAegon getting a dragon? The only real way it would be considered Dance 2, is simply because Aegon is pretending to be a Targaryen but I don't think that is solid enough.

The only way I can see it happening is if the two dragons that remain in Mereen are somehow being controlled by whoever possesses the dragonhorn that Victarion has brought to Mereen. I don't see Victarion/Euron and fAegon becoming friends any time soon, but there is no guarantee that Victarion or Euron will be in possession of the horn after the battle of fire outside Mereen.

If so, we might have a Daenerys+Drogon versus whomever+VIserion+Rhaegal situation. And that mystery person may turn out to be Jon, but I think more likely: fAegon. And that DoD 2.0 (if it happens at all) will be between Daenerys and fAegon. Not between Daenerys and Jon.

However, I agree with the opening poster: fAegon is probably not Rhaegars son. I personally believe that he is a Blackfyre (and possibly Brightflame too) descendant. 

[Dolorous22]

I think lord/king Jon will do a Torrhen Stark and kneel to Dany's Drogon which is being warged by Bran. 
 

[TeamWhiteWalkerz]

3 minutes ago, Dolorous22 said:

I think lord/king Jon will do a Torrhen Stark and kneel to Dany's Drogon which is being warged by Bran. 
 

I think King Jon Stark will pull a Brandon Snow and try to fight the dragons. This time there won't be anyone to stop him. 

[Pancakes1800]

7 hours ago, Greymoon said:

Memory, Sorrow and Thorn is a fantasy series as well, and it has more fantasy in it than asoiaf. Not a good argument. We expect 8 books, we've had five so far. Five books that deal with a war of succession. You are telling me that is not the main topic of asoiaf? if the war for dawn is the main topic, then there's some problems with how much time GRRM spend on the war of the five kings and its aftermath.

Similarly, if Dany just abandons Slaver's bay after burning Meereen, then her whole narrative up until now makes absolutely no sense. The end game is not the war for the dawn. There's not going to be a zombie apocalypse. There's going to be men fighting each other and making awful decisions, while the WW will continue or increase their efforts to subjugate humanity the way they've always done - by raiding, by staying in the shadows, by staying invisible and making the enemy fear them.

You know the threat is there, because its cold and the night is never ending. But you don't see it. The men disappear and you can't do anything to stop it....and many of those that aren't in the north and haven't met the enemy face to face, won't belief the threat exists at all.

 

I said endgame, not main topic.  GRRM has said endgame is War vs Others.  If you think Dany is going to continue to deal with the Slaver's politics for peace then you really really need to read her last chapter again and understand how her ADWD ended.  Dany's narrative has been about either being Mysa(mother of freed slaves) or Mother of Dragons and at the end of ADWD she makes her choice.  The second the Wall goes down, everybody will realize the threat and then this whole "staying in the shadows" thing is crap, the cat will be out of the bag.  Once it is night 24/7, nobody can deny the threat.  Like I said earlier, It is a stupid narrative decision to have the North fight for all humanity while fAegon and Dany fight in the south.  Once word gets to the South about the Others getting through the Wall, there is no way they can deny it.  

[TeamWhiteWalkerz]

11 minutes ago, Pancakes1800 said:

I said endgame, not main topic.  GRRM has said endgame is War vs Others.  If you think Dany is going to continue to deal with the Slaver's politics for peace then you really really need to read her last chapter again and understand how her ADWD ended.  Dany's narrative has been about either being Mysa(mother of freed slaves) or Mother of Dragons and at the end of ADWD she makes her choice.  The second the Wall goes down, everybody will realize the threat and then this whole "staying in the shadows" thing is crap, the cat will be out of the bag.  Once it is night 24/7, nobody can deny the threat.  Like I said earlier, It is a stupid narrative decision to have the North fight for all humanity while fAegon and Dany fight in the south.  Once word gets to the South about the Others getting through the Wall, there is no way they can deny it.  

Source

[Pancakes1800]

1 hour ago, TeamWhiteWalkerz said:

Source

The original outline for starters.  He's made comments on that if the show did a movie at the very end to wrap things up the big budget would help because "those dragons get real big".  Course statement 2 works for both arguments, but given that a Jon v. Dany end game is stupid and makes zero sense narrative wise I go with Dany helps fight Others.  I know outline has changed in a lot of ways but the same main structure is still there.  War of the Five Kings-----> Dance of Dragons----->War vs Others.  My interpretation though.