Targ incest: Is it a good thing?

[Sydney Mae]

5 hours ago, RobOsevens said:

I figured this would be very divisive so a good choice for my first OP .

Is Targaryen incest a good thing or necessary? 

We are told that: “King Jaehaerys once told me that madness and greatness were two sides of the same coin. Every time a new Targaryen is born, he said, the gods toss the coin in the air and the world holds its breath to see how it will land.” Most believe this is because of the incest, which is a reasonable assumption imo.

Many of us think Aerys was Mad because of the incest and Joffrey's terrible tendencies are usually blamed on this as well.

But it is also believed that the PtwP will come from the line of Aerys and Rhaella. 

So if the PtwP is destined to save the world (or at least make some grand contribution) then the question stands: Is Targaryen incest a good thing or necessary? 

Definitely a good thing.  The Valyrians had very good reasons for the practice.  Besides, they surely had been doing it for thousands of years before the doom.  The Valyrians are god-like as a result.

[TheSpottedCat]

4 hours ago, StarkofWinterfell said:

what we do know is that if Targs try to produce offspring that don't share at least some of their blood, then they produce lizard-like abominations.

I'm not sure where you got that idea. The Targaryens married into other families several times, and managed to produce perfectly normal, healthy children. For example, Viserys I married first an Arryn, and then a Hightower, both unions produced healthy children. Daeron II married Mariah Martell, and had several healthy children. Aegon V married Betha Blackwood, again they had several children, all healthy. Aegon IV had bastards with various non-Targaryen women, and as far as we know they were all normal, unless you count Bloodraven, who was an albino, but otherwise healthy. Not to mention all the non-ruling Targaryen princes and princesses that married into other Westerosi houses, like Rhaelle Targaryen, who was Robert Baratheon's grandmother.

Contrast that with Targaryen-Targaryen pairings, like Aegon II with his sister-wife Helaena, who produced a daughter who had developmental delay, and a son who had polydactyly, or Rhaenyra Targaryen with her uncle Daemon, who had a stillborn daughter that looked like a lizard and had a hole in her chest where her heart should have been.

The only case I can remember where a Targaryen-non-Targaryen union produced a lizard-like abomination is Daenerys' baby, Rhaego, and we can't be sure whether the baby was deformed from the beginning or whether the dark magic that Mirri performed caused him to become deformed.

[purple-eyes]

1 minute ago, TheSpottedCat said:

I'm not sure where you got that idea. The Targaryens married into other families several times, and managed to produce perfectly normal, healthy children. For example, Viserys I married first an Arryn, and then a Hightower, both unions produced healthy children. Daeron II married Mariah Martell, and had several healthy children. Aegon V married Betha Blackwood, again they had several children, all healthy. Aegon IV had bastards with various non-Targaryen women, and as far as we know they were all normal, unless you count Bloodraven, who was an albino, but otherwise healthy. Not to mention all the non-ruling Targaryen princes and princesses that married into other Westerosi houses, like Rhaelle Targaryen, who was Robert Baratheon's grandmother.

Contrast that with Targaryen-Targaryen pairings, like Aegon II with his sister-wife Helaena, who produced a daughter who had developmental delay, and a son who had polydactyly, or Rhaenyra Targaryen with her uncle Daemon, who had a stillborn daughter that looked like a lizard and had a hole in her chest where her heart should have been.

The only case I can remember where a Targaryen-non-Targaryen union produced a lizard-like abomination is Daenerys' baby, Rhaego, and we can't be sure whether the baby was deformed from the beginning or whether the dark magic that Mirri performed caused him to become deformed.

True. I think it is better to have a non Targ bride, although I have to say, even they can have some issue. 

Mariah got rhaegel. Dyanna got aerion. Blackwood got jaehaerys who is very sick and weak. 

 

[Sydney Mae]

We may learn later on that the Grand Maesters had been poisoning the Targaryen kings for centuries.  The Valyrians could never have built the greatest empire on that world if the incidence of insanity were too far above the norm.  A slight increase of incidence above the norm is more than acceptable to have the ability to ride and bond with dragons. 

[Dorian Martell]

1 hour ago, Sydney Mae said:

We may learn later on that the Grand Maesters had been poisoning the Targaryen kings for centuries.  The Valyrians could never have built the greatest empire on that world if the incidence of insanity were too far above the norm.  A slight increase of incidence above the norm is more than acceptable to have the ability to ride and bond with dragons. 

I think the incest thing happened after the doom, when there were very few Valyrians left. Also, the empire was built with very powerful magic that seems to have been lost after the freehold ceased to exist.  The Maesters are generally anti-magic and Marwyn thinks they have poisoned the dragons though 

[purple-eyes]

3 minutes ago, Dorian Martell said:

I think the incest thing happened after the doom, when there were very few Valyrians left. Also, the empire was built with very powerful magic that seems to have been lost after the freehold ceased to exist.  The Maesters are generally anti-magic and Marwyn thinks they have poisoned the dragons though 

No, I think world book said among dragon lord houses, incest was always popular. 

To maintain their blood for dragon riding. 

 

[Dorian Martell]

1 minute ago, purple-eyes said:

No, I think world book said among dragon lord houses, incest was always popular. 

To maintain their blood for dragon riding. 

 

Either way, the magic that was powerful enough to contain 14 volcanoes for thousands of years is no longer there. That same power could have protected them against their inbreeding 

[purple-eyes]

9 minutes ago, Dorian Martell said:

Either way, the magic that was powerful enough to contain 14 volcanoes for thousands of years is no longer there. That same power could have protected them against their inbreeding 

There is no proof that valyrian would not have similar problems as Targ. 

[SeanF]

I figured this would be very divisive so a good choice for my first OP .

Is Targaryen incest a good thing or necessary?

We are told that: “King Jaehaerys once told me that madness and greatness were two sides of the same coin. Every time a new Targaryen is born, he said, the gods toss the coin in the air and the world holds its breath to see how it will land.” Most believe this is because of the incest, which is a reasonable assumption imo.

Many of us think Aerys was Mad because of the incest and Joffrey's terrible tendencies are usually blamed on this as well.

But it is also believed that the PtwP will come from the line of Aerys and Rhaella.

So if the PtwP is destined to save the world (or at least make some grand contribution) then the question stands: Is Targaryen incest a good thing or necessary?

From the point of view of breeding dragon riders, yes. Not, in any other way.

Dany is a product of extreme incest (she only had two grandparents) and she brought dragons back to life.

[sarah.jenice]

Since it's a fantasy series, I'm not going to judge them by our societal norms and agree that it's hard to say definitively if incest is to blame for the Targ madness.

Honestly, I'm glad we don't have any active sibling Targ couples in the current series. It's one thing to have the idea of the Targs wedding brother to sister as a sort of abstract concept of what they used to do, but I wouldn't have want to readed about any more situations like Viserys and Dany especially after reading about poor Naerys with Aegon the Unworthy in AWoIaF.

Quote

The newly married prince [Aegon IV] seems not merely to have disliked his wife, but to have vehemently loathed her from the first, their marriage would see many petty cruelties from husband to wife. Daeron's birth nearly killed  the frail Naerys, and even the Grand Maester warned that another pregnancy would kill her. Naerys begged Aegon to live in chastity with her as brother and sister, having fulfilled her wifely obligations by providing his a son and heir. Aegon - in a rare insight into his famous wit - merely reminded Naerys that a "brother-sister" relationship was what they currently enjoyed, and forced Naerys to continue their marital relationship. Bowing to Aegon's command, Naerys conceived at least three more times, and her last experience proved fatal. 

Although I suppose if the rumors about her and Aemon the Dragonknight are true, it wasn't the incest that was the problem, but dammit if that woman didn't deserve some small measure of happiness. 

[SeanF]

Since it's a fantasy series, I'm not going to judge them by our societal norms and agree that it's hard to say definitively if incest is to blame for the Targ madness.

Honestly, I'm glad we don't have any active sibling Targ couples in the current series. It's one thing to have the idea of the Targs wedding brother to sister as a sort of abstract concept of what they used to do, but I wouldn't have want to readed about any more situations like Viserys and Dany especially after reading about poor Naerys with Aegon the Unworthy in AWoIaF.

The newly married prince [Aegon IV] seems not merely to have disliked his wife, but to have vehemently loathed her from the first, their marriage would see many petty cruelties from husband to wife. Daeron's birth nearly killed the frail Naerys, and even the Grand Maester warned that another pregnancy would kill her. Naerys begged Aegon to live in chastity with her as brother and sister, having fulfilled her wifely obligations by providing his a son and heir. Aegon - in a rare insight into his famous wit - merely reminded Naerys that a "brother-sister" relationship was what they currently enjoyed, and forced Naerys to continue their marital relationship. Bowing to Aegon's command, Naerys conceived at least three more times, and her last experience proved fatal.

Although I suppose if the rumors about her and Aemon the Dragonknight are true, it wasn't the incest that was the problem, but dammit if that woman didn't deserve some small measure of happiness.

Dany's life as Viserys' wife would have been hell

[sarah.jenice]

8 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Dany's life as Viserys' wife would have been hell

Yes it would have.

Or perhaps she would have had that whole "he was no dragon...fire cannot kill a dragon" epiphany all by herself. Then instead of a Drogo-pyre dragon birth, it's Viserys who gets to feed the flames with his king's blood to hatch the dragons. 

[Lord Lannister]

7 minutes ago, sarah.jenice said:

Yes it would have.

Or perhaps she would have had that whole "he was no dragon...fire cannot kill a dragon" epiphany all by herself. Then instead of a Drogo-pyre dragon birth, it's Viserys who gets to feed the flames with his king's blood to hatch the dragons. 

Well if Dany never married Drogo, Illyrio would likely have sat on his dragon eggs. So in that scenario I'd just see Jorah killing Viserys once Dany took it too far.

[SeanF]

1 hour ago, sarah.jenice said:

Yes it would have.

Or perhaps she would have had that whole "he was no dragon...fire cannot kill a dragon" epiphany all by herself. Then instead of a Drogo-pyre dragon birth, it's Viserys who gets to feed the flames with his king's blood to hatch the dragons. 

Viserys had already begun molesting her.  Even without marriage, I'm sure he'd have raped her at some point, without the wedding to Drogo.

If they were still on the run, I could envisage him selling her into a brothel, if the price was high enough.

[Grissom]

15 hours ago, StarkofWinterfell said:

I'm not sure if Targaryen madness has to do with incest or not as it is still very much a fan theory, but what we do know is that if Targs try to produce offspring that don't share at least some of their blood, then they produce lizard-like abominations.

We also have historical evidence of royal families intra-marrying to preserve their royal blood so it's not out of the ordinary.

What the?

One case does not make the norm.

Also, it is know that children born of incest from parents of close family have mental and physical problems, I don't think it's much of a fan theory, it is pretty much confirmed.

[ChillyPolly]

For those making the "Okay because fantasy and Targs are different" argument - we might recall that Egg himself studied the Targ family trees and came to the conclusion that sibling marriage was a bad idea.  He himself married outside the family, and tried to discourage sibling marriage among his own children.  He was defied by two of his children, and the Mad King was the ultimate result.

[SeanF]

For those making the "Okay because fantasy and Targs are different" argument - we might recall that Egg himself studied the Targ family trees and came to the conclusion that sibling marriage was a bad idea. He himself married outside the family, and tried to discourage sibling marriage among his own children. He was defied by two of his children, and the Mad King was the ultimate result.

In fact, Daeron the Good, Maekar, Baelor Breakspear and Egg all married non-Targaryens. The practice seems to have died out until Jaehaerys revived it.

[Dorian Martell]

11 hours ago, purple-eyes said:

There is no proof that valyrian would not have similar problems as Targ. 

Well, we have a 6000 year old empire that conquered half the eastern continent. We have that empire using powerful magic to keep violent geology in place. why not use the same magic to keep the side effects of inbreeding in check? We know the targs lost the knowledge to form stone like on dragonstone, and we know they lost the knowledge to control volcanoes, so they probably lost the magical ability to keep inbreeding in check 

[ChillyPolly]

2 minutes ago, Dorian Martell said:

Well, we have a 6000 year old empire that conquered half the eastern continent. We have that empire using powerful magic to keep violent geology in place. why not use the same magic to keep the side effects of inbreeding in check? We know the targs lost the knowledge to form stone like on dragonstone, and we know they lost the knowledge to control volcanoes, so they probably lost the magical ability to keep inbreeding in check 

More likely, the Valyrians had more genetic variety back when they were more powerful and numerous, and did not need to marry sisters to marry within their "race".  In any event, a preoccupation with genetic purity tends to be a paranoid reaction of a population that knows it is in decline, desperately trying to hold on to past glories.

[Dorian Martell]

25 minutes ago, ChillyPolly said:

More likely, the Valyrians had more genetic variety back when they were more powerful and numerous, and did not need to marry sisters to marry within their "race".  In any event, a preoccupation with genetic purity tends to be a paranoid reaction of a population that knows it is in decline, desperately trying to hold on to past glories.

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