What is the best POV story arc in any of the novels?

[lightbringer2525]

On February 14, 2016 at 3:30 AM, Étoile du Soir said:

GRRM is a spinner of yarns, a masterful fabulist, if ever I saw one to fasten on to so many details in their fiction, but for my praise to contract into a rather more local consideration:

Theon's Clash chapters are genuinely sublime (his intro turns into the exclamatory tones of the stage, but in a matter of lines his father's sound rejection of him settles into a lush emotional score. The author handles subtlety quite effectively throughout...) Henceforth, his ADwD character arc is like an open wound, probing the dilated heart.

I love reading about Jaime trying to scrape out a portion of self-defined identity that is for once decisively marked as his own seperate from Cersei. (Not an ardent admirer of the latter figure, though...)

Also Brienne's Feast chapters are a credo to the imaginative weighing of honour and ethos in the series, which threads through a number of stories current to the core canon like a leitmotif. (And contrary to popular belief, they are most certainly action-packed!)

Couldn't have said it better myself! Especially in regards to Jaime. Not to be too personal, but in my own life I've struggled sometimes to craft my own identity in relationships I've been in, and his fight to carve his own way separate from the woman he loves is very inspirational to me. Bravo to GRRM for creating such real and complex characters to the point where they inspire you like they're real people. At least in my experience! 

[Hangover of the Morning]

Difficult to judge unfinished stories but I'll give it a shot.

Theon's almost flawless. He could die now (though I don't want him to) and I'd still consider his story to be a great one.

Jaime's minus his last horrendous stand-alone chapter in Dance

Tyrion's AGoT to  ASoS is a masterpiece but he completely lost me once he reached Volantis and since then I can't care less. 

 

[Tijgy]

In general Bran is my favorite. I just love the read about the mysteries of the old gods, his dreams, ... and of course the wolves  - Summer who plays a major role in story and who is always near him. 

 

AGOT - Ned: I love his nostalgia to the past, his family, ... I love how he searches for the way to do the right thing. 

ACOK & ASOS: Sansa & the chapters of Tyrion during their marriage: those chapters really made me love her. I love how after all she is been put through she still shows compassion, ... And to see the both sides of their marriage is just very interesting

AFFC (&ADWD): Jaime like many other people

ADWD: Theon too

[WalkinDude]

On 2/13/2016 at 5:57 PM, INCBlackbird said:

I don't understand your reasoning that Theon and Sansa suffered due to their choices, Theon didn't suffer due to his own choices he suffered due to his father's and Robert Baratheon's (possibly Ned stark's but we don't know how much he was involved in the decision making) and Sansa was a 12  year old girl with no knowledge of the political game, or life in general, you can't expect her to act as someone who did.

to answer the question the OP asked: Theon, jaime's also great and tbh, most characters have amazing arcs so far. Theon is my number one and Jaime my number two by far but a few others that stand out to me are: Sansa, Arya and Cersei

I was more referring to his treatment as Reek.  I'm not saying that Sansa or Theon deserved their horrendous treatment, but it was a direct result of their actions.  Balon didn't tell Theon to take Winterfell,  and his own sister came to remove him before it snowballed into something he couldn't get out of.  Sansa may have only been 12, but she was a Stark and we know how important honor was to them - just look at Robb and Ned.  Sansa chose to betray her family in order to live out her fairy-tale betrothal, which set in place all the events that led to Ned's death and the Red Wedding. Tyrion or Jon on the other hand, were mistreated their entire lives for no other reason than being a dwarf or a bastard.  I know that their suffering is nothing compared to what the common person endures, but it still makes their plight that much more tragic.

[INCBlackbird]

3 minutes ago, WalkinDude said:

I was more referring to his treatment as Reek.  I'm not saying that Sansa or Theon deserved their horrendous treatment, but it was a direct result of their actions.  Balon didn't tell Theon to take Winterfell,  and his own sister came to remove him before it snowballed into something he couldn't get out of.  Sansa may have only been 12, but she was a Stark and we know how important honor was to them - just look at Robb and Ned.  Sansa chose to betray her family in order to live out her fairy-tale betrothal, which set in place all the events that led to Ned's death and the Red Wedding. Tyrion or Jon on the other hand, were mistreated their entire lives for no other reason than being a dwarf or a bastard.  I know that their suffering is nothing compared to what the common person endures, but it still makes their plight that much more tragic.

Theon's decision to take Winterfell was a direct result of his identity crisis, which he wouldn't have had if he hadn't been a hostage. Not to mention that it's never the victims fault if they get tortured, that's the torturer's fault, in this case Ramsay. It's not like Theon could have possibly forseen that if he took winterfell he was gonna get kidnapped by a sadist. Same with Sansa, she was a 12 year old pretty sheltered girl and she didn't betray her family, she couldn't have possibly forseen that Cersei was an evil sociopath, she probably didn't even know people like that existed.

Tyrion and Jon have been mistreated terribly yes, so has Theon. Theon got regularly beaten and bullied by his brothers, then when they died he was ripped away from his family to live under threat of death for 10 years among a bunch of people who prejudiced him. Tyrion, Jon and Theon (and many other characters for that matter) have all been treated terribly and some turn into stable people (Jon) some into unstable people (Tyrion & Theon) that's how life is.

[Daendrew]

GRRM is an unsurpassed master because Jamie's story arc... isn't. It's just the reader who sees the character arc differently.  Jaime has always been the same. Everyone is 50 shades of greyscale. 

This is the best fucking thing I have ever read.

[INCBlackbird]

10 minutes ago, Daendrew said:

GRRM is an unsurpassed master because Jamie's story arc... isn't. It's just the reader who sees the character arc differently.  Jaime has always been the same. Everyone is 50 shades of greyscale. 

This is the best fucking thing I have ever read.

THIS tbh!! people always go on about how jaime changed, but the whole point is that Jaime didn't really change, maybe his perspective shifted a bit in that he became more hopefull due to meeting Brienne but in essence he was always the same. what changed is that at first you practically only read him through the perspective of people who disliked him (and Tyrion but they barely interract in the first two books)

[Daendrew]

1 hour ago, INCBlackbird said:

THIS tbh!! people always go on about how jaime changed, but the whole point is that Jaime didn't really change, maybe his perspective shifted a bit in that he became more hopefull due to meeting Brienne but in essence he was always the same. what changed is that at first you practically only read him through the perspective of people who disliked him (and Tyrion but they barely interract in the first two books)

Tyrion is our favorite character, yet he raped a woman in Pentos. 

We are all onions with a little rot in them.

[WalkinDude]

2 hours ago, INCBlackbird said:

Theon's decision to take Winterfell was a direct result of his identity crisis, which he wouldn't have had if he hadn't been a hostage. Not to mention that it's never the victims fault if they get tortured, that's the torturer's fault, in this case Ramsay. It's not like Theon could have possibly forseen that if he took winterfell he was gonna get kidnapped by a sadist. Same with Sansa, she was a 12 year old pretty sheltered girl and she didn't betray her family, she couldn't have possibly forseen that Cersei was an evil sociopath, she probably didn't even know people like that existed.

Tyrion and Jon have been mistreated terribly yes, so has Theon. Theon got regularly beaten and bullied by his brothers, then when they died he was ripped away from his family to live under threat of death for 10 years among a bunch of people who prejudiced him. Tyrion, Jon and Theon (and many other characters for that matter) have all been treated terribly and some turn into stable people (Jon) some into unstable people (Tyrion & Theon) that's how life is.

Theon considered Robb a brother.  Yes, he was a hostage/ward, but every account of his time in Winterfell shows he was treated as another son of Eddard Stark.  It isn't until Theon goes back to Pike that he suddenly becomes conflicted.  And it's not due to his father's lack of approval, but because Theon sees himself as a Westerois lord without ever doing anything to earn his status as is expected by the iron born.  

I guess we can agree to disagree about Sansa.  I'm not saying she's evil, but she lied in front of her father and King about Arya and Joffrey.  When Ned told her he was sending her and Arya back to WF, she immediately ran to Cersei.  In my book, that counts as betrayal.  Again, I'm not saying either deserved the torture they received,  But there is a fundamental difference between how someone like Tyrion ended up in a bad spot (being betrayed by his own family), and Sansa and Theon who "betrayed" their families.

[INCBlackbird]

3 minutes ago, WalkinDude said:

Theon considered Robb a brother.  Yes, he was a hostage/ward, but every account of his time in Winterfell shows he was treated as another son of Eddard Stark.  It isn't until Theon goes back to Pike that he suddenly becomes conflicted.  And it's not due to his father's lack of approval, but because Theon sees himself as a Westerois lord without ever doing anything to earn his status as is expected by the iron born.  

I guess we can agree to disagree about Sansa.  I'm not saying she's evil, but she lied in front of her father and King about Arya and Joffrey.  When Ned told her he was sending her and Arya back to WF, she immediately ran to Cersei.  In my book, that counts as betrayal.  Again, I'm not saying either deserved the torture they received,  But there is a fundamental difference between how someone like Tyrion ended up in a bad spot (being betrayed by his own family), and Sansa and Theon who "betrayed" their families.

Theon considered Robb a brother yes, but Theon certainly wasn't treated as one of the Stark kids, that was the entire problem. the entire thing where he wanted to be a Stark but couldn't. remember the conversation theon had with lady Dustin in adwd... Theon wasn't treated as a son of Eddard Stark, and he shouldn't be either, he was a hostage, can't expect the Starks to consider him family just because he is forced to live there. they didn't treat him bad for sure, that wasn't the problem, the problem was the situation. You can't expect someone who is forced to grow up with no family (no parental love) under threat of death to grow up as a balanced person.

And yes of course the conflict started when he went back to Pyke, that's when he found out his father wouldn't take part in his perfect plan of joining the Stark and Greyjoy forces, it's when he had to make a choice between the family he technically belonged to and the family he wanted to belong to but couldn't. and then there's of course all his idealized scenarios of the future that he came up to cope with that are shattered, but yeah not going into that here, it'd get too long.

It's not expected by the ironborn to "do something" to earn a lordship, Theon is Balon's last living son, he is his heir. It's pretty much just Balon who doesn't want him to be lord because he never liked him in the first place and believes the Starks ruined him even more. Victarion says he'd follow any son of Balon and the only reason there even was a kingsmoot is because they believed Theon to be dead.

She said she didn't remember, if I remember that correctly, because she didn't want to take either side. I mean one was who she believed to be her future husband and the other her sister. what did you expect her to do? Tell the king and queen who were supposed to be her family that their son is a liar? I'm sure every 12 year old (especially in this kind of world) dares to do that. I don't think you can betray anyone without knowing you're betraying them so how exactly did she "betray" Ned?

Theon ended up in a bad spot because he was bullied by his family, just like Tyrion. Theon most certainly didn't betray his own family, he chose his own family over the Starks, as he should.

[Nymeria_Stark]

I happen to love Arya in Game... whenever she was training with/for Syrio. Also I love her in Feast/Dance with her in Braavos.

[slant]

Theon thinks of the stark kids as his kin when accused of being a kinslayer. 

[INCBlackbird]

1 minute ago, slant said:

Theon thinks of the stark kids as his kin when accused of being a kinslayer. 

of course he does, he wanted to be a part of the family. do they think of him as kin though? as far as we know they didn't (and shouldn't be expected to mind you) I mean, when Bran is praying for everyone's safe return he goes "and Theon too, I guess" as an afterthought, doesn't sound like he considered him a brother. Arya and Sansa never even think of Theon, Jon is strangly the one who thinks most positively about him but we know they didn't get along very well from their interractions and Jon noting that Theon ignoring him was nothing new.

[Sydney Mae]

On 2/11/2016 at 10:24 PM, lightbringer2525 said:

Dany has most definitely had a great arc over the course of all the books. Can't wait to see what happens next for her. And I always love Tyrion! I find myself going back and reading his chapters all the time. What's your favorite of Tyrions? I've probably read his escape from kings landing chapter a dozen times 

My fave Tyrion chapters?  When he used his wits and Bronn's greed to get himself away from Lysa Arryn's trial. 

Dany and Tyrion have a lot in common.  They are both very perceptive and they know how to work people.  Tyrion's evaluation of Bronn was spot on.  Dany's evaluation of the Titan's Bastard was spot on.  She played Kraznys like a toy.  They have a lot in common, but I'm still not sold on A+J=T.  Still, they could make an awesome team.  Daenerys + The Dragons + Tyrion + Jorah + Barristan + Missandei + Greyworm = Team Awesome.

 

[Lost Melnibonean]

On 2/9/2016 at 6:00 PM, lightbringer2525 said:

Lately I've found myself rereading particular characters chapters on their own instead of rereading the entire book (haven't had too much reading time lately), and one I always go back to is Jaime's story in ASOS. I'll read all of his chapters in a row because in a way his story is separate from a lot of the other events going on in the book. I truly do think his story, and character arc in book 3 is one of the best in the entire series. He has so much development throughout the book, and I know a lot of people turned into Jaime fans afterwards. His inner dialogue is so entertaining, and it's so gratifying to read how it changes throughout the book. I also really love the Arya chapters in ASOS, but mainly because her and the Hound are my favorite odd pairing. There are other strong ones that I've read on their own as well, such as the Tyrion arc in ACOK. I'm just curious what everyone elses favorite single story arcs are in any one of the novels?

Arya getting the f@$! outta Dodge.