How in the hell was Arthur Dayne defeated?

[Beautiful Bloody Sword]

1 hour ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

Is it not possible that he did no have the room for the other bodies? Which is what they would be at TOJ. Two men and a baby are not going to be able to bring all these rotting bodies home with them as well as the supplies, their weapons their camping equipment all the way back to Winterfell. Even attempting to take all that is going to add even more time to their journey.

Not only is that too much to bring back, but Ned wanted to keep a low profile.

If Ned wanted to keep a low profile, go straight home, don't detour backwards to Starfall to return the most famous sword of the most famous knight to his ancestral home to his famously beautiful sister. 

They went to WF by ship, that's where the fish wife as Jon's mom story came from. If you can bring an eating, shitting alive horse that weighed a couple hundred pounds, you could bring a couple corpses that won't eat, shit or make a sound. 

Obviously most of the people making these outlandish replies haven't served in the US Military. The number one rule, other than to obey your superior officer, is to never, ever leave a fallen comrade in arms behind, under any circumstance. It's viewed as disrespectful to the soldier, his family, our military, and most importantly our flag(country).

[thelittledragonthatcould]

4 minutes ago, Beautiful Bloody Sword said:

If Ned wanted to keep a low profile, go straight home, don't detour backwards to Starfall to return the most famous sword of the most famous knight to his ancestral home to his famously beautiful sister. 

Maybe Starfall was on the way to the closest port. Maybe Ned felt returning a priceless heirloom was a matter of honour. Maybe he had close relations to the Daynes and did not want to earn their enmity.

There are many plausible reasons why he went back.

4 minutes ago, Beautiful Bloody Sword said:

They went to WF by ship, that's where the fish wife as Jon's mom story came from. If you can bring an eating, shitting alive horse that weighed a couple hundred pounds, you could bring a couple corpses that won't eat, shit or make a sound. 

One, two maybe even three horses is plausible by ship. Half a dozen horses, dead bodies and a baby less so.

Ned had to prioritize.

4 minutes ago, Beautiful Bloody Sword said:

Obviously most of the people making these outlandish replies haven't served in the US Military. The number one rule, other than to obey your superior officer, is to never, ever leave a fallen comrade in arms behind, under any circumstance. It's viewed as disrespectful to the soldier, his family, our military, and most importantly our flag(country).

lol when did Ned serve in the US military? Is that from an SSM, as I don't recall GRRM mentioning that in the books.

Of course if Ned did serve in the US military then you are perfectly correct and everyone else is wrong, however if he didnt serve in the US military then you may be jumping to conclusions.

[Brian Powers Of Palantíri]

Considering Roberts obvious respect and admiration for Ned, he Must have been a pretty good fighter. King Robert wouldn't have respected and loved Ned the way he did or considered him a Brother if the man wasn't. The two must have practiced together many times in the years together in the Eyrie, building their friendship through battles. 

Robert was one of the best fighters in Westeros, a man of Six and a half feet, very strong, and wielding a War Hammer, while Ned is of average height, and never described as a great fighter. Robert would never have respected, loved, and called him brother without Ned earning that respect, most likely through battle prowess.

[Castellan]

I haven't read the whole thread but I will jump in now, not directly on the topic of who is the best fighter etc

Everything that happened at the TOJ is awaiting a reveal - I don't think GRRM made it this murky so far just to conceal Jon's parentage. Its not impossible that Arthur Dayne be defeated by Ned's larger party - presuming his two companions aren't nearly as good as he is - and the fact that only Edd and Howland were left says it was close. And Howland wouldn't need magic to save Ned from Arthur - as the negligable fighter in Ned's group he probably survived through being not worth bothering with and was then in a position to attack Arthur.

What is interesting is what all present thought they were fighting about. Ned presumably didn't know Lyanna was pregnant and probably though she had been kidnapped, hopeless Robert-adoring fool that he was. Arthur et al were presumably fighting for the life of an infant heir to the throne who Robert would have destroyed. Did they think Ned would do that too? One reason they were defeated must be that they waited outside the tower until Ned arrived, presumably if they sealed themselves in Ned's lot would have had to storm the door, a much trickier proposition. Perhaps they were not sure what Ned's intentions were until they saw he had sword in hand - and then Arthur says ' and so it begins'. Or perhaps they did not want to take the fight inside and endanger Lyanna and the baby.

I will chime in with another weird idea - a small part of my brain remains sceptical that 'bed of blood' necessarily refers to Lyanna dying in chidbirth. It seems to have become canon - please tell me if GRRM has ever said exactly that. Also, to die from a bleed out (which was a quite common way to die in childbirth) would mean she was actually having the baby or had only just had it, so I keep wondering about the logistics of keeping a newborn alive long enough to get a wet nurse for it, and how going to find such a wetnurse ties in with the timing of two men demolishing a tower and building cairns. That demolition part has always struck me as particularly ridiculous but perhaps it just an example of GRRMs occasional impracticality.

So, an alternate way for her to die - martial character that she was  - is rushing out screaming at Eddard that she was not kidnapped and to stop his attack. She could have got in the way of a sword and died that way. And by the way, in support of this is the fact that when Eddard first watches Arya sword in hand fighting Syrio he has a flashback to the TOJ battle. We also know from another fragment he heard her scream his name while he was attacking the KIngsguard, he seems to have taken it as a plea for help. It would explain the guilt that Ned feels and the way he has sealed those events so tight in his brain that we only get indirect fragments and allusions even in his POV in the dungeons, when he is thinking about it.

 

[Ygrain]

8 minutes ago, Castellan said:

I will chime in with another weird idea - a small part of my brain remains sceptical that 'bed of blood' necessarily refers to Lyanna dying in chidbirth. It seems to have become canon - please tell me if GRRM has ever said exactly that.

Here you go the relevant quotes:

 

He dreamt an old dream, of three knights in white cloaks, and a tower long fallen, and Lyanna in her bed of blood. (AGOT

Promise me, Ned, his sister had whispered from her bed of blood. She had loved the scent of winter roses (AGOT)

“Before,” Dany said to the ugly Lhazareen woman, “I heard you speak of birthing songs …”

“I know every secret of the bloody bed, Silver Lady, nor have I ever lost a babe,” Mirri Maz Duur replied. (AGOT)

“The Lamb Woman knows the secrets of the birthing bed,” Irri said. “She said so, I heard her.” (AGOT)

That was the way of this cold world, where men fished the sea and dug in the ground and died, whilst women brought forth short-lived children from beds of blood and pain. (Damphair, AFFC)

 

Quote

Also, to die from a bleed out (which was a quite common way to die in childbirth) would mean she was actually having the baby or had only just had it, so I keep wondering about the logistics of keeping a newborn alive long enough to get a wet nurse for it, and how going to find such a wetnurse ties in with the timing of two men demolishing a tower and building cairns. That demolition part has always struck me as particularly ridiculous but perhaps it just an example of GRRMs occasional impracticality.

Lyanna was feverish before her death, and so weak from the fever that she was only able to whisper, meaning that she had been feverish for quite some time. That suggests puerperal fever as the cause of death and her survival after the delivery for at least several days during which there would be postpartum bleeding (even normal postpartum bleeding can be quite strong in those first days, and one of the symptoms of puerperal fever is actually excessive bleeding)

The wetnurse may already have been prearranged, especially if Lyanna's condition before the childbirth was not very good.

Quote

 

So, an alternate way for her to die - martial character that she was  - is rushing out screaming at Eddard that she was not kidnapped and to stop his attack. She could have got in the way of a sword and died that way. And by the way, in support of this is the fact that when Eddard first watches Arya sword in hand fighting Syrio he has a flashback to the TOJ battle. We also know from another fragment he heard her scream his name while he was attacking the KIngsguard, he seems to have taken it as a plea for help. It would explain the guilt that Ned feels and the way he has sealed those events so tight in his brain that we only get indirect fragments and allusions even in his POV in the dungeons, when he is thinking about it.

The fact that Ned went to ToJ with only a few trusted friends seems to suggest that he had known that he would find Lyanna in conditions that had better not become publically known.

Also, Lyanna's scream doesn't fit with his waking memory of her being too weak to even speak normally, and it rather seems that Vayon Poole's voice trying to wake him got mixed into the dream (Lyanna in his memories calls him Ned, not Eddard or Lord Eddard)

1 minute ago, redtree said:

People really truly have forgotten Soviet

Oh, we haven't, in the good as well as the bad. Nor have we forgotten that our former liberators divided spheres of influence and screw those who fell in the wrong one. But, hey, no oil, no diamonds, right?

[The Dragons Hand]

Howland was a ret- retari-

That kind of gladiator who fought with a trident and net In suppose. That or he used some magics/toxins to mess with old Arty.

[dread wolf]

let us visualise the fight 

it was 7 vs 3 right 

the bull is known for his strength and dayne was a master swordsman i dnt know anything about whent

4 from ned's team must have taken on the bull (because of his strength) and 2 each on dayne and whent.

i think the bull might have caused the most damage to ned's team.

bull kills 3 from 4 but gets exhausted and the 4th one kills him

howland is a crannogmen  so he is an experienced guerilla fighter

he must have used some dirty ffighting trick to distract dayne and go for the killing blow as it is said that dayne is a honorable fighter.

even though they were great fighters 7 vs 3 are overwhelming odds and the kingsguard wore heavy armor, so it slows their movement in the fight assuming ned's party wore light leather armor. in a prolonged bloody fight the kingsguard will obviously lose. its like a fight between a pack of wolves and a bear in a fight to the death. sure the pack suffers losses but they ultimately win

[Castellan]

I like the way after a brief trip back to TOJ, we are back in WWII.

Thanks for quotes, Ygrain, I agree it seems GRRM is establishing that that idiom was being used by Ned in his thoughts.

Still leaves quite a bit of mystery re TOJ imo and Ned and his 'broken promises' etc he i thinking about in the dungeon.

 

 

[Ygrain]

23 minutes ago, Castellan said:

Thanks for quotes, Ygrain, I agree it seems GRRM is establishing that that idiom was being used by Ned in his thoughts.

You're welcome, I keep them ready-to-use :-)

23 minutes ago, Castellan said:

Still leaves quite a bit of mystery re TOJ imo and Ned and his 'broken promises' etc he i thinking about in the dungeon.

True enough, but I think we do have a clue what they may relate to, or at least some of them.

Ned never thinks about broken promises prior this point, only promises that he kept (and paid a price to do so). He also thinks about Jon, wishes he could sit down and talk to him. Later, he investigates the possibility to write a letter, and in Bran's dream about the crypts, wishes to relay something concerning Jon. I believe that one of the promises was to tell Jon the truth at some point, and being imprisoned (and very likely executed soon) means that he won't be able to fulfill this promise, which is why he is so desperate about communicating with Jon.

Now, I don't think that he would have confided the truth to the paper, but perhaps he would write something like "I'm so sorry I never told you about your mother, go talk to our friend Howland Reed, I hope that you will forgive me". 

[Castellan]

I like the thought he broke a more serious promise and was more morally compromised than he indicates. I've got no reason for thinking this, I just like the idea.

[Red Man Racey]

9 hours ago, Beautiful Bloody Sword said:

If Ned wanted to keep a low profile, go straight home, don't detour backwards to Starfall to return the most famous sword of the most famous knight to his ancestral home to his famously beautiful sister. 

They went to WF by ship, that's where the fish wife as Jon's mom story came from. If you can bring an eating, shitting alive horse that weighed a couple hundred pounds, you could bring a couple corpses that won't eat, shit or make a sound. 

Obviously most of the people making these outlandish replies haven't served in the US Military. The number one rule, other than to obey your superior officer, is to never, ever leave a fallen comrade in arms behind, under any circumstance. It's viewed as disrespectful to the soldier, his family, our military, and most importantly our flag(country).

Pretty sure the number one rule is "support and defend the Constitution of the United States from all enemies, foreign and domestic" as that's the only part that appears in both enlisted and officer oaths. In case you weren't aware, officer oaths do not include the bit about "obey the orders of the President and the officers appointed over me".

Also, I don't believe it's fair to claim that Ned was disrespecting these men by burying them on site. If Ned had dug a shallow mass grave and haphazardly thrown their bodies in it then I'd agree with you, but he did everything in his power to create monuments to these men -- I mean, he pulled down a tower, a freaking tower. The evidence suggests that if he had the capability, he would have taken them all home but circumstances prevented that so he did the next best thing. And as thelittledragonthatcould pointed out, Ned doesn't appear to be a veteran of the US Military.

Finally, please don't call in to question others' military service without any background about them; to me, THAT is disrespectful. And not just hypothetical disrespect in a fantasy novel by a character that never existed as anything more than lines of text on paper.

Edit:  To get back on the topic of how Dayne was defeated, I'm torn between some of the options that people have proposed:  on the one hand, it would be cool if Howland simply talked Arthur down and then they went and chilled in the swamp, but on the other hand, that might be a bit too unrealistic and could have trouble fitting in the narrative. We really just need to meet Howland Reed in the next book and have him explain all this so there's no more lingering questions.

[One-eyed Misbehavin]

As for the net the harder ghost fought to get out of it the more entangled he became. Maybe Arthur got to wrapped up (sorry for the pun) in the net and gave Ned the chance he needed 

[Raisin' Bran]

Net, Arrow, Skin Changing in my mind are all possibilities. As far as Ned being ok with it, sure. Ned knows how the crannogmen fight, and Ned still brought Howland along for the ride.

27 minutes ago, One-eyed Misbehavin said:

As for the net the harder ghost fought to get out of it the more entangled he became. Maybe Arthur got to wrapped up (sorry for the pun) in the net and gave Ned the chance he needed 

I believe you are referring to Summer.

[OuttaOldtown]

I believe this is the clue that it was some kinda crag magic:

"he could breathe mud and run on leaves, and change earth to water and water to earth with no more than a whispered word. He could talk to trees and weave words and make castles appear and disappear." - Meera to Bran

My guess is he was about to kill Ned & Howland made a choice, that was to save Ned in turn killing Arthur..

[MacrosTheBlack]

Something I think people need to consider is that in combat, unarmed or otherwise, the variables and potential for mistakes is massive. Look at sports like MMA or boxing, fighters who are massive underdogs regularly come out on top. Ever heard of a punchers chance? It's the same thing with swords. Maybe Dayne slipped on a loose bit of rock at the wrong time? Maybe he had pulled a muscle sparring a few days before. Maybe he had a really bad sleep...

 

Or maybe 7 trained and battle hardened men had a fight with 3 other men and won. Seems pretty reasonable. He was a great knight, not a super hero.

[Sir Bronn]

On 21.03.2016 at 9:27 AM, Demonking1381 said:

Seriously I don't understand how this guy was killed. Throughout the book series multiple people have praised him for being one of the best warriors to have ever lived but was killed by Ned and howland reed somehow at the tower of joy. Jaime says he could have killed five men with one hand and defeated the smiling knight of the kings wood brotherhood who was one of the most dangerous outlaws ever and was said to be the deadliest knight in the kings guard and the seven kingdoms by catelyn and had to go through the intense physical training to become the sword of the morining and wield dawn. So how the hell did eddard and howland reed manage to defeat this guy?

1.It was 7vs3

2.Ned was more determined, he was underrated in some way.Howlamd Reed is believed to be very good.Rest 5 of them were powerful lords.Oswell and Gerold were one of the best, however they didn't face average guys.Only Ned and Howland survived, so they managed to beat 5.

3.Fighting isn't so predictable.You can slip, have a worse day etc.

[Neolaina]

On 3/24/2016 at 2:27 AM, The Dragons Hand said:

Howland was a ret- retari-

That kind of gladiator who fought with a trident and net In suppose. That or he used some magics/toxins to mess with old Arty.

Retiarii, or a retiarius. I had to re-look it up. Totally worth it.

They were always my favourite.

[BalerionTheCat]

It was not just Arthur Dayne. There was 3 very experienced KG. The White Bull was something too. These were the best of this time:

I learned from the White Bull and Barristan the Bold. I learned from Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, who could have slain all five of you with his left hand while he was taking a piss with the right. I learned from Prince Lewyn of Dorne and Ser Oswell Whent and Ser Jonothor Darry, good men every one.

Ned himself is never described as a very skilled swordsman. None of his companions are.

This adds to many other questions. How Ned found them? Why just 7 and not more? IMO opinion, the KG had no where to go, no perspective for themselves. They had to protect the king and staying with Jon would betray him. Their only escape was death. They chose death. Possibly it was a blood sacrifice for Jon's coming too.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

1 minute ago, BalerionTheCat said:

It was not just Arthur Dayne. There was 3 very experienced KG. The White Bull was something too. These were the best of this time:

Hightower was Lord Commander when the 23 year old Barristan joined the Kingsguard more than 20 years before Robert's Rebellion. We also know that he had to sit out much of the battles with the Kingswood brotherhood as his hand was injured.

Whent as well may have been past his peak. We know that his brother was the Lord of Harrenhal, a Lord who the 40something Barristan referred to as 'old man Whent'.

 

Now Dayne was definitely best 'of this time'. Hightower and Whent may have been well past their best. Kingsguard are human, they age and deteriorate like anyone else.

[BalerionTheCat]

13 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

Hightower was Lord Commander when the 23 year old Barristan joined the Kingsguard more than 20 years before Robert's Rebellion. We also know that he had to sit out much of the battles with the Kingswood brotherhood as his hand was injured.

Whent as well may have been past his peak. We know that his brother was the Lord of Harrenhal, a Lord who the 40something Barristan referred to as 'old man Whent'.

 

Now Dayne was definitely best 'of this time'. Hightower and Whent may have been well past their best. Kingsguard are human, they age and deteriorate like anyone else.

I know, Hightower's age is unknown. But this is a fantasy world. Barristan is old now, but he is still ranked among the best.