How do some people honestly think Ramsay wrote the pink letter?

[Good Guy Garlan]

3 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Hence I think the letter was sent by Theon in the company of the Karstark maester and Stannis's strongarm guard of the Karstark maester from another location.

Why, though? Why would anyone other than the Boltons (or Mance) send that letter? 

[The Truth]

9 minutes ago, Good Guy Garlan said:

Just cause Ramsay's never said the word "whore" it doesn't mean it's not part of his vocabulary. Why wouldn't he say "whore", if everyone else in Westeros does? Same with "bastard." He hates that word...when it's applied to him. But it's fully in character for him to call another guy "bastard" to make himself look better, to flaunt his newly acquired highborn status. 

I'll give you "crows", but that plays into my theory that Mance wrote the letter along with Ramsay. 

Whore vs bastard. He has no reason to hate the word "whore". grrm is king of leaving clues, so its not by mistake that the person who uses the word whore, almost triple then anyother character, is in a situation placed directly with a maester with pink wax etc.

If ramsay wanted to make for damn sure it came from him he would use the house seal like the other letters, thats the only way the recieved end can verify for 1000000% it is who sent it. If it just had the house seal, or even some piece of skin, or writ in blood I would concede. But there is not 1 trait of it that reflects to him

[The Truth]

4 minutes ago, Good Guy Garlan said:

Why, though? Why would anyone other than the Boltons (or Mance) send that letter? 

Stannis needs more men. Until massey comes through. That letter gets Jon to possibly march, for his sister for wf etc. Or to help stannis. Also stannis will most likely fake his own death or did, maybe by sending that word gets out and it gets back to the boltons. There is tons of reasons, if just add all the contents like I said there is little to nothing that supports Ramsay

[The Truth]

12 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

A lot of the other stuff is ambiguous - for example the wax seal, some argue could have been opened by someone of the Watch, like Clydas (who is the only one who could have aided Slynt in sending a letter to Cersei about Jon and Stannis). It seems to me a case can be made that Clydas expected a letter from the Lannisters or Lannister allies to give the go-ahead to assassinate Jon Snow. If so, then Clydas broke the seal and patched it up.

But I agree that the sum of all the ambiguous elements, and imo including the absence of evidence that Boltons can even send ravens from ruined WF itself (so far they have solely received ravens), and George stressing how Luwin's ravens are in the heart tree (and those could only be ravens homing into WF) and the rookery burned leads to ruling out Ramsay as the author of the Pink Letter.

I also agree that the use of "whores" points to Theon imo. He's the one who uses this word regularly. We never ever see Ramsay use that word, nor does Mance.

I don't think it's sent from Stannis' camp though - Stannis has ravens for WF, but it is doubtful he would have ravens for CB.

Hence I think the letter was sent by Theon in the company of the Karstark maester and Stannis's strongarm guard of the Karstark maester from another location.

Stannis would have to least know about it then correct? Theon wouldnt be able to pull that off without stannis, he is his prisoner. Tybald has the pink ink, Theon is using his phrases directly to stannis which directly appears in the letter

[Ser Gareth]

50 minutes ago, John Courage said:

Yea, its def not Ramsay, but could be Tybald and co. with Stannis. I just lean toward Mance because he's roaming around Winterfell, and can sneak into wherever he wants. Just the "black crows" and the sort way it's written just makes me think Mance wrote it. If I'm to believe Stannis wrote it, I would just need clarification on the timeline because Jon gets the letter at the end of Dance and we don't see Theon with Stannis and Tybald until Winds.

I don't think such open deception is Stannis's style.  He'd simply send a bird back to the Wall advising that he needs the presence of whoever.

I also can't remember but did Theon find out about Mance?  Or did he only ever know him as Abel?  Mance would be my candidate, if wasn't Ramsey, simply because he wants Val and his "son".

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I thought OP was going to say "... because that guy can't even write properly".

I don't think there is still a Maester at WF.

[Good Guy Garlan]

6 minutes ago, The Truth said:

Stannis needs more men. Until massey comes through. That letter gets Jon to possibly march, for his sister for wf etc. Or to help stannis. Also stannis will most likely fake his own death or did, maybe by sending that word gets out and it gets back to the boltons. There is tons of reasons, if just add all the contents like I said there is little to nothing that supports Ramsay

Like I said, if Stannis wanted Jon to march why not write, "Bastard, I have your sister, come and get her, etc"? You know, the thing most likely to piss Jon off? But instead Stannis (if he's the author) omitted the most important piece of information, and instead let Jon know that the Boltons no longer have "Arya" (I want my bride back ), which gives Jon even less reasons to march south. 

Plus, Stannis would have to know that Jon wasn't gonna just ride into the sunset. He'd have to know he'd be putting his family in big danger by sending that letter. 

Stannis just doesn't work as the author, IMO. And neither does Theon. 

[sweetsunray]

17 minutes ago, The Truth said:

Stannis would have to least know about it then correct? Theon wouldnt be able to pull that off without stannis, he is his prisoner. Tybald has the pink ink, Theon is using his phrases directly to stannis which directly appears in the letter

Yes, I think it is part of Stannis's plan, except Stannis assume that Theon would know Ramsay-speak, while it's actually Theon-Reek speak. And I doubt it have the desired impact - assassination of Jon. But Mel expected a letter, told Jon to come to her first, and Val also said she was supposed to be back by the next moon. So, there are hints of a timing being set up beforehand between Mel and Stannis and probably Val. The Pink Letter imo was a coded letter to give feedback to Mel about the progress of the campaign and the go-ahead for a plan involving the wildlings in the campaign. Slynt's self-assured claim that he had important friends would have made Stannis wary of spies in the NW. So hence it has the lie of Stannis being dead and such and the demand for his queen, Red priestess and his heirress (in case one of Slynt's buddies and pro-Lannister spies within the watch reads the letter). But I think the message is meant to say: we did it, took us 7 days (or since 7 days), come to WF, Ramsay's bride was rescued and is on her way to CB, and Mance and Spearwives are safe.

[sweetsunray]

54 minutes ago, Good Guy Garlan said:

Why, though? Why would anyone other than the Boltons (or Mance) send that letter? 

There are indications that Clydas is spying or illegally allowing communication with KL. Slynt's claims before he got his head chopped off, within earshot of Stannis would have made Stannis weary of using straightforward communication. Aemon and Sam were sent off to the Citadel and only Clydas, who is neither Jon's friend, nor has made a maester's vows can therefore act more liberal with letters being sent by people who aren't LC and letters meant for people who aren't LC (possibly Cersei's conspiritors).

Stannis has every reason to be cautious to having someone send a letter to Jon that says: Victory, we won WF 7 days ago (or in a campaign that lasted 7 days), send my wife, child and red priestess over, your sister is on her way to CB, and we the wildlings still have their king Mance and the Spearwives. Send a letter like that, and Clydas or Bowen write a letter of alarm to KL. The hyperbole threats and language and news of Stannis's death were meant to fool those within the NW that were not loyal to Jon and leaned more to Lannister rule. 

It just went horribly wrong, because Jon failed to do as Mel had asked - go directly to her with any news he received. She would have told him exactly what it meant.

[The Truth]

25 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Yes, I think it is part of Stannis's plan, except Stannis assume that Theon would know Ramsay-speak, while it's actually Theon-Reek speak. And I doubt it have the desired impact - assassination of Jon. But Mel expected a letter, told Jon to come to her first, and Val also said she was supposed to be back by the next moon. So, there are hints of a timing being set up beforehand between Mel and Stannis and probably Val. The Pink Letter imo was a coded letter to give feedback to Mel about the progress of the campaign and the go-ahead for a plan involving the wildlings in the campaign. Slynt's self-assured claim that he had important friends would have made Stannis wary of spies in the NW. So hence it has the lie of Stannis being dead and such and the demand for his queen, Red priestess and his heirress (in case one of Slynt's buddies and pro-Lannister spies within the watch reads the letter). But I think the message is meant to say: we did it, took us 7 days (or since 7 days), come to WF, Ramsay's bride was rescued and is on her way to CB, and Mance and Spearwives are safe.

bingo

[The Truth]

• What we know about Ramsay's letters
  • We have two examples of letters we know to be Ramsay's
    • The letter relating the fall of Moat Cailin (hereafter "Letter A") is described by Asha (The Wayward Bride)
    • The letter summoning Bolton's bannermen to Barrowton for his wedding to "Arya" (hereafter "Letter B") is described by Jon (Jon VI)
  • The handwriting in both samples is described exactly the same way: "a huge, spiky hand."
  • Letter A is signed "Ramsay Bolton, Lord of Winterfell"
  • Letter B is signed "Ramsay Bolton, Lord of the Hornwood"
  • Both letters are written in blood rather than a maester's black ink
    • Maester's black ink (sometimes simply referred to as "maester's black" (Jon XI, Tyrion XII)) is "made of soot and coal tar" (The Wayward Bride), and is commonly used as a reference to a deep, dark black
      • "On moonless nights the water was black as maester's ink" (Tyrion VIII)
      • "... a fiery gray courser with a mane as black and shiny as maester's ink." (Jon XII)
      • "Black as maester's ink he was..." (The Kingbreaker))
    • His writing in Letter A is brown and he explicitly claims that he "[wrote] this letter in the blood of ironmen."
    • The writing in Letter B is also brown, and Jon observes that it "came away in flakes when [he] brushed it with his thumb." This is consistent with the physical characteristics of blood, and with Inkpots' statement (Tyrion XII) that "blood makes piss-poor ink." Since it also describes the fall of Moat Cailin and "the flayed corpses of the ironmen," it was likely written at the same time as Letter A, which we already established was written in blood.
• What we know about the Pink Letter

• The Pink Letter is signed "Ramsay Bolton, Trueborn Lord of Winterfell" and contains five instances of the word "bastard"
  • Not only is this different from his other signatures, it highlights the fact that he is a legitimized bastard
  • Ramsay HATES being reminded of his bastardy
    • "His lordship was not a bastard anymore. Bolton, not Snow... Calling him Snow reminded him of his bastardy and sent him into a black rage." (Reek I)
    • When Stannis calls him "the Bastard" in the Theon sample chapter, Theon responds: "Never call him that... Ramsay Bolton, not Ramsay Snow, never Snow, never, you have to remember his name, or he will hurt you"
    • Later, Stannis calls him "the Bastard of Bolton," and Theon thinks, "You must not call him that!"
• In contrast to the other letters, it is almost certainly written in black ink
  • In both the other letters, the unusual brown color of the writing is noticed right away, but no such mention is made here
  • Tormund can't read it, but he does look at it, and he says the claims in the letter might be lies, because "if [he] had... a nice goose quill and a pot o' maester's ink, [he] could write" a false report of the length of his member
  • If any of Ramsay's letters should have been written in blood, surely it is this one
  • The Boltons (Ramsay in particular) have never exactly been hesitant to spill blood, and after a battle there should have been no shortage anyway
  • Maester's ink freezes just as blood does (in the Theon sample chapter from TWOW, Stannis signs his contract with the Iron Bank in blood because the ink is frozen), so saying that the blood of the dead would freeze out in the cold is not very strong evidence against
• Like the other letters, it is sealed with the pink wax of the Dreadfort
  • But Stannis has access to the Dreadfort's sealing wax, since Theon's sample cha

• • Tybald is with Stannis' host (Stannis: "You are maester at the Dreadfort. How is it you are here with us?" Tybald: "Lord Arnolf brought me to tend to his wounded.") and that his treachery has been revealed (Stannis: "What was in the message you sent to Winterfell?" Tybald: "A m-map, Your Grace.")
• Its handwriting is unfortunately not described, but given that the "huge, spiky hand" of both of Ramsay's previous letters was noticed right away, it is odd that no mention is made of it
  • As for the objection that Jon had previously seen Ramsay's handwriting but doesn't note any changes, his single exposure to it was months before, the intervening time has been eventful to say the least, and the shock of the letter's contents could impair his ability to recall the previous letter. He never mentions it.
• The Pink Letter contains a lot of information that seems unlikely to have reached Ramsay, but which would or could have been easily known by Mance, Theon, and Stannis. It contains no information that Ramsay could have but that is NOT known by Mance, Theon, or Stannis.
  • Theon just regurgitated everything from when he became Reek up to the escape from Winterfell, and is currently with Stannis (TWOW, Theon sample)
    • He is presented to Asha as a gift (and tells her "Don't you call him that" when she asks if "the Bastard" was responsible for his appearance)
    • "Then the words came spilling out of Theon in a rush. He tried to tell her all of it, about Reek and the Dreadfort and Kyra and the keys... He told her how he'd saved the girl, leaping from the castle wall into the snow. "We flew. Let Abel make a song of that, we flew." Then he had to say who Abel was, and talk about the washerwomen who weren't truly washerwomen."
  • "The spearwives and their number" were known to Mance and Theon
  • The idea or language of "want[ing] his Reek [back]" is expressed by Theon to Stannis
  • The true identity of "Abel" was known to Mance and Theon, but Mance is not known on sight, even by the northmen, because he was able to hide in plain sight at Winterfell during both the events surrounding "Arya's" wedding, as well as the welcoming feast for King Robert back at the beginning of AGOT (ASOS, Jon I)
  • Any awareness at Winterfell of Mance's supposed death would make it even more of a leap to identify "Abel" as Mance
  • The statement "You told the world you burned the King-Beyond-the-Wall" is unusual
    • Jon never claimed responsibility for burning anyone, and Melisandre's presence at Castle Black is specifically noted
    • Granting Mance his style seems out of character for Ramsay and for the letter in general
  • Demanding Mance's son and Val requires knowledge of their presence at Castle Black

• • Word of Val's beauty spreads among Stannis' men, but Winterfell seems oblivious to it
• There are two significant objections to using the relative availability of information as evidence
  • The information might have been obtained from Mance or any of the surviving spearwives if they were captured and questioned
    • But some of the items (particularly knowledge of Val and Mance's son) would seemingly have to be offered
    • Mance and the spearwives are unlikely to allow themselves to be taken alive, because they know what would be in store for them
    • "Did the Bastard hurt you?" Rowan asked. "Chopped off your fingers, did he? Skinned your widdle toes? Knocked your teeth out?" (A Ghost in Winterfell)
    • "Ramsay will use your women as his prey," he told the singer. "He'll hunt them down, rape them, and feed their corpses to his dogs. If they lead him a good chase, he may name his next litter of bitches after them. You he'll flay. Him and Skinner and Damon Dance-for-Me, they will make a game of it. You'll be begging them to kill you." He clutched the singer's arm with a maimed hand. "You swore you would not let me fall into his hands again. I have your word on that." He needed to hear it again. "Abel's word," said Squirrel. "Strong as oak." Abel himself only shrugged. "No matter what, my prince." (Theon VII)
  • Our only knowledge of what Winterfell is aware of comes from Theon's chapters, and there are gaping holes in his memory. He relates a short conversation as having started at breakfast and ended at lunch (A Ghost in Winterfell).

 

 

Add it all up

[Leonardo]

58 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

A lot of the other stuff is ambiguous - for example the wax seal, some argue could have been opened by someone of the Watch, like Clydas (who is the only one who could have aided Slynt in sending a letter to Cersei about Jon and Stannis). It seems to me a case can be made that Clydas expected a letter from the Lannisters or Lannister allies to give the go-ahead to assassinate Jon Snow. If so, then Clydas broke the seal and patched it up.

But I agree that the sum of all the ambiguous elements, and imo including the absence of evidence that Boltons can even send ravens from ruined WF itself (so far they have solely received ravens), and George stressing how Luwin's ravens are in the heart tree (and those could only be ravens homing into WF) and the rookery burned leads to ruling out Ramsay as the author of the Pink Letter.

I also agree that the use of "whores" points to Theon imo. He's the one who uses this word regularly. We never ever see Ramsay use that word, nor does Mance.

I don't think it's sent from Stannis' camp though - Stannis has ravens for WF, but it is doubtful he would have ravens for CB.

Hence I think the letter was sent by Theon in the company of the Karstark maester and Stannis's strongarm guard of the Karstark maester from another location.

Stannis has already sent Jon a letter and is relying on him for a power base

Of course he has ravens for CB lol

[JonCon's Red Beard]

32 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Yes, I think it is part of Stannis's plan, except Stannis assume that Theon would know Ramsay-speak, while it's actually Theon-Reek speak. And I doubt it have the desired impact - assassination of Jon. But Mel expected a letter, told Jon to come to her first, and Val also said she was supposed to be back by the next moon. So, there are hints of a timing being set up beforehand between Mel and Stannis and probably Val. The Pink Letter imo was a coded letter to give feedback to Mel about the progress of the campaign and the go-ahead for a plan involving the wildlings in the campaign. Slynt's self-assured claim that he had important friends would have made Stannis wary of spies in the NW. So hence it has the lie of Stannis being dead and such and the demand for his queen, Red priestess and his heirress (in case one of Slynt's buddies and pro-Lannister spies within the watch reads the letter). But I think the message is meant to say: we did it, took us 7 days (or since 7 days), come to WF, Ramsay's bride was rescued and is on her way to CB, and Mance and Spearwives are safe.

I like this

But, how it ended up so bad and how Stannis expected people to read his "code"?

[The Truth]

To the people who think it was Mance. If you think its him, then Mel must be in on it then correct? Being she is the one who glamoured him that could be pulling strings? It would have to be right. just curious, but I still lean heavy to Stannis Theon Tybald

[sweetsunray]

Just now, JCRB's Honeypot said:

I like this

But, how it ended up so bad and how Stannis expected people to read his "code"?

Mel expected a letter and she told Jon to come to her first as soon as news arrived. She would have known the code, and she could have informed Jon... comparable to Catelyn being the only one who could translate Lysa's coded letter in the box with the lens.

[Free Northman Reborn]

It is clearly not Stannis behind the Pink Letter. It simply does not achieve any of his objectives, and it is certainly not meant to be a hidden code to be deciphered by Jon.

The most likely author in my view is Mance. But again, not as a secret message to Jon. Instead, it is meant to achieve Mance's own goals, which are not aligned to Jon's. Mance wants to save the Wildlings, and to do so, he has to cut a deal with the authority below the Wall. If he believes Stannis is doomed - and Stannis was no friend of his anyway - then the logical person to cut that deal with is Roose Bolton, who rules the North on behalf of the Iron Throne.

So, with that letter, Mance is able to lure Jon down to Winterfell for Roose, get Theon back for the Boltons along with the fake Arya, get Shirreen and Selyse into custody to end Stannis cause, and get his own wife, child and even Val back. All while cutting a deal with Roose for the safe settlement of the wildlings below the Wall, just before Winter.

This achieves everything Mance had wanted when he marched on the Wall. The dreams that were dashed when Stannis charged into his wildling horde at the head of his mounted knights.

Mance is shrewd, and such a deal, if he could swing it with the Boltons, would serve his ends better than anything else he could hope for after the misfortunes Stannis (and Jon, let's face it), have forced upon him.

[Ruhail]

The showrunners seemed to haven taken it literally.

48 minutes ago, JCRB's Honeypot said:

I thought OP was going to say "... because that guy can't even write properly".

I don't think there is still a Maester at WF.

Maester Tybald of the dreadfort is the Bolton maester and 

Spoiler

Stannis has captive and figured out he was spying. 

 

[watcher of the night]

What the letter achives, and was written clearly with this aim in mind is to piss off Jon.

I think that it is the interest of neither Stannis, nor Ramsay. There is only one party that benefits from it and this party is the group of mutineers at CB. Therefor the letter is a forgery. Note that Clydas was trembling and white before he handed over the letter to Jon. Why? Just because it had "bastard" on it? I think because he forged the letter himself.

[The Truth]

3 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

It is clearly not Stannis behind the Pink Letter. It simply does not achieve any of his objectives, and it is certainly not meant to be a hidden code to be deciphered by Jon.

The most likely author in my view is Mance. But again, not as a secret message to Jon. Instead, it is meant to achieve Mance's own goals, which are not aligned to Jon's. Mance wants to save the Wildlings, and to do so, he has to cut a deal with the authority below the Wall. If he believes Stannis is doomed - and Stannis was no friend of his anyway - then the logical person to cut that deal with is Roose Bolton, who rules the North on behalf of the Iron Throne.

So, with that letter, Mance is able to lure Jon down to Winterfell for Roose, get Theon back for the Boltons along with the fake Arya, get Shirreen and Selyse into custody to end Stannis cause, and get his own wife, child and even Val back. All while cutting a deal with Roose for the safe settlement of the wildlings below the Wall, just before Winter.

This achieves everything Mance had wanted when he marched on the Wall. The dreams that were dashed when Stannis charged into his wildling horde at the head of his mounted knights.

Mance is shrewd, and such a deal, if he could swing it with the Boltons, would serve his ends better than anything else he could hope for after the misfortunes Stannis (and Jon, let's face it), have forced upon him.

Mance would be an idiot to do that. Being his child and people he cares about are not with him. None of what you posted holds up at all. To the questions you stated they have been answered by numerous people already. The mance and the bolton thing is a worse guess then the guy who said he thinks stannis is doing it to get shireen to him to burn her, no offense

[Leonardo]

4 minutes ago, watcher of the night said:

What the letter achives, and was written clearly with this aim in mind is to piss off Jon.

I think that it is the interest of neither Stannis, nor Ramsay. There is only one party that benefits from it and this party is the group of mutineers at CB. Therefor the letter is a forgery. Note that Clydas was trembling and white before he handed over the letter to Jon. Why? Just because it had "bastard" on it? I think because he forged the letter himself.

How would they know or care who Reek is?