The "Truth" About Dany

[LiveFirstDieLater]

3 minutes ago, tugela said:

Not common knowledge across the land, but certainly it would have been the point of conversation in the regions around Starfall when it happened. The song is a local one from Dorne. It is not every day that a noted beauty from a famous house throws herself off a tower under mysterious circumstances, and that would have without question got tongues wagging locally.

There is a correlation between the song and Ser Barristans recollections. He was not there himself, nor was he connected to the family. So, his source of information would be gossip, or even this song itself.

Maybe I missed something, are you just speculating it is a Dornish song or was there evidence to that end I didn't see?

and what is the connection between Barristan's recollections and the song Arya overhears in Braavos?

I'm confused... But I will admit if it turns out that Arya is thinking Ashara should have killed Robert and Ned then it's some nice irony... Just not sure I see the full bridge, of course I always loved:

My princess," he sobbed. "We've been dishonored, Aenys says. There was a bird from the Twins. My lord father says I'll need to marry someone else, or be a septon."

A stupid princess, she thought, that's nothing to cry over. "My brothers might be dead," she confided. 

Elmar gave her a scornful look. "No one cares about a serving girl's brothers."

[LiveFirstDieLater]

6 minutes ago, tugela said:

IIRC (can't be sure, don't have the books here), the passage came from the Undying as a form of greeting when she first encountered them. Those bits are not prophecy however, as they in part refer to things that have already happened and essentially are her history. The passage is structured as who she is, where she comes from and where she is going.

I will have to go and read that chapter again. It did not occur to me that the passage may be linked to the visions she saw. That might be illuminating.

 

"I have come for the gift of truth," Dany said. "In the long hall, the things I saw . . . were they true visions, or lies? Past things, or things to come? What did they mean?"

. . . the shape of shadows . . . morrows not yet made . . . drink from the cup of ice . . . drink from the cup of fire . . . 

. . . mother of dragons . . . child of three . . .

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

On 6/10/2016 at 3:12 AM, The Others Take Ya said:

Nice first post OP. I thought it was well put together. No stupidity or ignorance detected.

So I'd like to point out that when Dany has her little conversation with Quaithe, she gives Quaithe an instinctive, certain answer to the question of who she is "the blood of the dragon". People ignore that. I think in that sentence lies the key to explain the lemon tree memory inconsistency. No R+L=D, baby-swap, lived inDorne-gate required.

Recall this passage from AGOT Dany III

Her blood, even before the dragon was hatched, was all over the dragon. She's blood of the dragon. And what is the thing about blood magic we are told time and again?

So Dany knows instinctively that she is blood OF the dragon, the dragon has HER blood all over it. Ergo, she was the blood sacrifice.

Hold up... you're thinking... Dany isn't dead!

The answer is she USED to be. AA should be REborn right? Death is seriously messed up North of the wall... and south... well why couldn't it be too?

So the question is, one more what so the dragon can have three heads? There were two things done so far at that point, what's the third thing that Rhaegar needed for that third head of the dragon?

The answer is "lives of the blood of the dragon".

Egg sacrificed himself at Summerhall. Then Rhaegar was born.

Rhaegar lived to fulfill prophesy, then died at the trident. Then Dany was born.

So that's two deaths so far and the blood that was all over the dragon was identified by her as her own.

Rhaegar named the tower, the tower of joy. For Dany, the house with the red door (also known as - from her ADWD dream - the tall stone house with the red door) was the place she was happiest.

When Dany has her fever dream when she runs up to the house with the red door, flings open the door and runs inside. LOOK WHO IS IN DA HOUSE

 

 

The house with the red door is a past life memory from when she used to be Rhaegar. As Rhaegar, she blood sacrificed her/himself to pay for another dragon life. Now she's back again to hatch dragons and get her reward.

 

I don't know why everyone gets so hung up on Dany being in Dorne. Dany wasn't in Dorne at all Rhaegar was in Dorne a lot. No logistical hoops required.

 

I really think it took specific blood to hatch dragons. Not just any king would do. Something is special about their blood... otherwise wouldn't everyone have figured out how to hatch dragons by now besides a few rare and select Targs?

 

Here's where we sometimes get to an unsettling part for some readers. "she's a guy reincarnated as a girl? really?" is kind of the reaction. (Or do people just like having R+L=D for love of debate??? idk) To those reactions, here's Maester Aemon to drop the mic.

 

edit: for giggles here's a bonus theory - dragon binder worked by killing the blower, but the "kiss" ceremony to bring someone back to life had its origin in Valyria, where they knew that people that died and were incinerated came back, because death was out of whack, so they used that to their advantage and used up a life in order to bind themselves to a dragon in a second life. Sure maybe they lost a bit of who they were along the way, like Dondarrion has, but hey... they got to enslave a dragon. So that was too big a perk to resist. Note I say enslave. I don't think GRRM calls the horn dragonBINDER for nothing. GRRM has history of hiding secrets right in the simple play on words... tears of lys = lysa's weapon, and of course Season 6's...

  Reveal hidden contents

Hodor = hold the door

 

This all seems to make sense but dragons used to be hatched all the time right? 

It's been a while since I read them but I think it was in the D&E books that talked about each Targ baby getting a dragon egg in their cradle. Some hatched some didn't. Because some of the Targ babies were the 3rd head & some weren't? Possibly. But surely they all had 2 deaths in their direct line before them? 

Maybe the first 2 had to die a specific way to be considered a 'sacrifice'?  It can't just be that they were murdered or died at anothers hands like Aerys & Rhaegar though because many Targs were murdered or died at another's hands & the dragons died out. Why did they stop hatching? 

[Aryya Stark]

On June 10, 2016 at 3:42 AM, princess_snow said:

Very well said @Aryya Stark. I agree with you.

@LiveFirstDieLater I get where you are coming from re this theory, and appreciate the time and thought you have put into this. Its a very interesting read. Ive enjoyed the thread and will keep an open mind here.

[Victarion Chainbreaker]

On 6/11/2016 at 1:39 AM, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Always appreciate the appreciation!

My point was that Ladies jumping from towers doesn't seem to be a unique thing... And if this is a bard singing a song then are you suggesting that a love affair between Ashara and Rhaegar is common knowledge across the land? Seems like a massive omission by all the POVs

The song doesn't need to be written about Ashara and Rhaegar in-world for it to be referring to them.

Let me give you a well-known example:

Quote

 

The old man seemed to sense his doubts. "Tell me, Jon, if the day should ever come when your lord father must needs choose between honor on the one hand and those he loves on the other, what would he do?"

Jon hesitated. He wanted to say that Lord Eddard would never dishonor himself, not even for love, yet inside a small sly voice whispered, He fathered a bastard, where was the honor in that? And your mother, what of his duty to her, he will not even say her name. "He would do whatever was right," he said … ringingly, to make up for his hesitation. "No matter what."

"Then Lord Eddard is a man in ten thousand. Most of us are not so strong. What is honor compared to a woman's love? What is duty against the feel of a newborn son in your arms … or the memory of a brother's smile? Wind and words. Wind and words. We are only human, and the gods have fashioned us for love. That is our great glory, and our great tragedy.

 

In this case, it's clear that Jon and Aemon are referring to Ned. However, it's also clear that George is referring to Rhaegar.

The song could have been sung about someone else entirely. The question is: Was George telling the readers about Ashara and Rhaegar?

 

[LiveFirstDieLater]

8 hours ago, Victarion Chainbreaker said:

The song doesn't need to be written about Ashara and Rhaegar in-world for it to be referring to them.

Let me give you a well-known example:

In this case, it's clear that Jon and Aemon are referring to Ned. However, it's also clear that George is referring to Rhaegar.

The song could have been sung about someone else entirely. The question is: Was George telling the readers about Ashara and Rhaegar?

 

I don't follow, why is that quote about Rhaegar?

Doesnt it make way more sense to be about Ned finding Jon at the ToJ? I'd read it as the explanation for why Ned would lie and hide a bastard boy.

Or even about Aemon's own life... But it seems to me Rheagar either chooses love over duty (or you could argue that the two were one and the same for him because, prophesy?) but that doesn't seem to really apply to the quote, Dany even gets a vision of Rhaegar with his baby son...

[tugela]

On ‎6‎/‎13‎/‎2016 at 5:47 AM, LiveFirstDieLater said:

I don't follow, why is that quote about Rhaegar?

Doesnt it make way more sense to be about Ned finding Jon at the ToJ? I'd read it as the explanation for why Ned would lie and hide a bastard boy.

Or even about Aemon's own life... But it seems to me Rheagar either chooses love over duty (or you could argue that the two were one and the same for him because, prophesy?) but that doesn't seem to really apply to the quote, Dany even gets a vision of Rhaegar with his baby son...

Because the bastard son was his sisters, but also a Targaryen. He knew that Robert was killing off the Targaryens, and the Targaryen he most would want to kill would be the child of Rhaegar and Lyanna. In order to protect the child Jon had to say it was his. There was no other way to be sure the child would be safe.

I suspect that there were twins, and the other, a girl, was taken by Howland Reed and raised as his daughter.

[Dukhasinov]

Sometimes I wonder if these people building a grand conspiracy theory on the unlikelihood of lemon trees in Braavos are also 9/11 truthers. The significance of the lemon tree is the same as the red door; It`s a small detail that would stick in the mind of a child and be prominent in a person`s earliest memories. We all have memories like that of our early childhood. It`s no more thematically important than that.

Braavos has a similar latitude and elevation to the Iron Islands, so we can assume a similar climate; Rainy and windy, mild summers, and wet, dreary winters, but not murderous, like in the North or the Vale. Yes, they grow citrus in Dorne, because the climate is optimal for it. Citrus orchards are NOT feasible in northern latitudes, but that doesn`t mean that the wealthy couldn`t have lemon trees in their courtyard as a novelty. Once a decade or so, Florida gets a winter bad enough to get freezing temperatures that ruin the citrus crops. But it just ruins the fruit. It doesn`t kill the trees. Real world proof that that a lemon tree could survive just fine in Braavos.

As for Quaith`s ambiguous prophecies hinting at a different origin for Danny.... I think it`s obvious that Quaith does not have Danny`s best interest at heart. The Shadowbinder`s advice urges her to mistrust Tyrion, Moquro, and Jon Connington, potentially her most useful allies and councilors.

 

[Victarion Chainbreaker]

6 hours ago, Dukhasinov said:

Sometimes I wonder if these people building a grand conspiracy theory on the unlikelihood of lemon trees in Braavos are also 9/11 truthers. The significance of the lemon tree is the same as the red door; It`s a small detail that would stick in the mind of a child and be prominent in a person`s earliest memories. We all have memories like that of our early childhood. It`s no more thematically important than that.

Braavos has a similar latitude and elevation to the Iron Islands, so we can assume a similar climate; Rainy and windy, mild summers, and wet, dreary winters, but not murderous, like in the North or the Vale. Yes, they grow citrus in Dorne, because the climate is optimal for it. Citrus orchards are NOT feasible in northern latitudes, but that doesn`t mean that the wealthy couldn`t have lemon trees in their courtyard as a novelty. Once a decade or so, Florida gets a winter bad enough to get freezing temperatures that ruin the citrus crops. But it just ruins the fruit. It doesn`t kill the trees. Real world proof that that a lemon tree could survive just fine in Braavos.

As for Quaith`s ambiguous prophecies hinting at a different origin for Danny.... I think it`s obvious that Quaith does not have Danny`s best interest at heart. The Shadowbinder`s advice urges her to mistrust Tyrion, Moquro, and Jon Connington, potentially her most useful allies and councilors.

 

Perhaps you'd care to click on my signature. The 'non-mystery' theory has been debunked.

[YOVMO]

On May 15, 2016 at 8:17 PM, JLE said:

 

I think the "Remember who you are" is a warning: Dany has an *evil* heritage - one of death, destruction and madness - and she must try to escape it, not embrace it.

 

Your comment here made me realize something. Dany's heritage isn't evil at all. The Targs are very much like the white walkers. They are different. They do not answer to Westerosi men or gods. In a sense, the song of ice and fire is the song of the WW and the Targs in Westeros (no, I don't mean to say that this is end game, just a neat little coincidence).

Westeros is the land of the Children, The First Men and the Andals. The Targs were not westerosi, they were conquerers from Essos. The Walkers, presumably, are looking to be conquerers from north of the wall.

 

When dany is told to remember who she is......it could very well be a reminder that, regardless of how she has been taught that Westeros is her home, she is not westerosi. As a Targ she is a valyrian and belongs in Essos not Westeros.

 

ASOIAF is very much based around people who don't belong. Jon was an outsider at Winterfell. Ned was an outsider in Kings Landing. Tyrion is an outsider to his father. The Children are outsiders (along with BR) north of the wall. Arya is an outsider in court and Sansa is an outsider in that she believes the songs of chivalry so her alienation is to the real world. The hound has been alienated from the child who wanted to play with a toy knight. The undead characters are alienated from the proper state of affairs...living when they should be dead. However, Dany is different. Dany THINKS she is an outsider in Essos because Westeros is her home when, in reality, it is quite the opposite. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

2 hours ago, Victarion Chainbreaker said:

Perhaps you'd care to click on my signature. The 'non-mystery' theory has been debunked.

I haven't been on the forums in a while & am on my phone. I cannot figure out how to find your signature but would like to read about the non-mystery theory being debunked. Any suggestions?

[Ygrain]

3 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I haven't been on the forums in a while & am on my phone. I cannot figure out how to find your signature but would like to read about the non-mystery theory being debunked. Any suggestions?

It's a link to GRRM responding to someone pointing out that lemon trees shouldn't be growing in Braavos, and he says "you are very perceptive, it points to something".  - Which, of course, solves nothing because in no way does it contradict that "trees grow in the gardens of the mighty" or whatever the quote is. All it says is that the lemon tree is a hint, and given the Sealord's involvement in the pact with Dorne, I still think that Dany living in some guesthouse in the Sealord's garden is a way more plausible explanation than Dany living several years in Dorne and then suddenly popping up as Viserys' sister without anyone batting a lash over it.

4 hours ago, YOVMO said:

When dany is told to remember who she is......it could very well be a reminder that, regardless of how she has been taught that Westeros is her home, she is not westerosi. As a Targ she is a valyrian and belongs in Essos not Westeros.

Dany THINKS she is an outsider in Essos because Westeros is her home when, in reality, it is quite the opposite. 

This. Dany has a very romanticised idea of Westeros, and I don't think she is going to be very happy with its food or hygiene standards, IF she ever gets there. IMHO, she would have been much happier if she had stayed with the Dothraki and never pushed Drogo into conquering.

[YOVMO]

19 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

This. Dany has a very romanticised idea of Westeros, and I don't think she is going to be very happy with its food or hygiene standards, IF she ever gets there. IMHO, she would have been much happier if she had stayed with the Dothraki and never pushed Drogo into conquering.

Absolutely agree. I read somewhere, but don't remember where, that Dany is trying to live Viscrys dream. Whoever posted this really struck me as having hit the nail on the head. Dany never dreamed of conquering or even returning to westeros, that was V. Dany dreams of the house with the red door and the lemon tree. When she tells Viscyrs she wants to go home that is where she means, not to King's Landing or Dragon Stone. 

As empowered as Dany seems in her new conqueror, city ruler, mother of dragons, breaker of chains, denier of martells, friendzoner of mormonts role the truth is, this isn't her. She is still a slave to her brothers lust for power when, in reality, the things she wants are lemon trees, red doors, grass between her toes.

All this talk about what Dany will do in Westeros, the invasion, which houses will rally to her cause, blah, blah blah. In the end I don't think she is going to ever go to westeros, I think she dies a pretty ignominious death..nothing special at all (imo it will be at the hands of victarion) and all along quithe, the essosi version of Glenda the good witch, has been telling her to remember who she is.....which is not a girl who wants to rule but a girl who wants to feel grass between her toes.

I suspect she will remember that in her dying moments.

[Ygrain]

1 hour ago, YOVMO said:

friendzoner of mormonts

ROFLMAO!

1 hour ago, YOVMO said:

Absolutely agree. I read somewhere, but don't remember where, that Dany is trying to live Viscrys dream. Whoever posted this really struck me as having hit the nail on the head. Dany never dreamed of conquering or even returning to westeros, that was V. Dany dreams of the house with the red door and the lemon tree. When she tells Viscyrs she wants to go home that is where she means, not to King's Landing or Dragon Stone. 

As empowered as Dany seems in her new conqueror, city ruler, mother of dragons, breaker of chains, denier of martells, friendzoner of mormonts role the truth is, this isn't her. She is still a slave to her brothers lust for power when, in reality, the things she wants are lemon trees, red doors, grass between her toes.

A good observation - it is a dream that had been drummed into her head over and over but not really hers because to her, Westeros is only Viserys' stories.

 

1 hour ago, YOVMO said:

All this talk about what Dany will do in Westeros, the invasion, which houses will rally to her cause, blah, blah blah. In the end I don't think she is going to ever go to westeros, I think she dies a pretty ignominious death..nothing special at all (imo it will be at the hands of victarion) and all along quithe, the essosi version of Glenda the good witch, has been telling her to remember who she is.....which is not a girl who wants to rule but a girl who wants to feel grass between her toes.

I suspect she will remember that in her dying moments.

I think the foreshadowing of "remember who you are", to which in her feverish state she remembers "blood of the dragon" and the like, is very dark one - she is turning away from things she likes and wants for herself (dragons don't plant) to things that are imposed on her, an unhealthy, destructive conqueror drive. But I don't think she will die just yet - whether Victaryon or Euron represent the "dread" of the prophecies, there is still "to love" part, so perhaps she might find some peace in her life (hopefully, not just peace of death)

[YOVMO]

3 hours ago, Ygrain said:

4 hours ago, YOVMO said:

friendzoner of mormonts

ROFLMAO!

Gonna humble brag on that one. I am pretty darn proud. I'd be lying if I said I didn't give myself a high five there. I was also thinking Sidestepper of Incest, Rejecter of Doggy Style, Cowboyer of Drogo, second guesser of astapor, wearer of tiny slippers, insulter of penis size, gaydar or qarth, knower little of the ways of war, flip-flopper of fighting pits, eater of horse offal, diddler of handmaidens, pooper of brown water, procrastinator of the east and, of course, haver of titles.

 

Sorry it is 4:50 am and I can't sleep.

 

3 hours ago, Ygrain said:

A good observation - it is a dream that had been drummed into her head over and over but not really hers because to her, Westeros is only Viserys' stories.

I think so too. Tomorrow I will google a bit and see if I can't find who it was that said it. It really hits home.

 

3 hours ago, Ygrain said:

I think the foreshadowing of "remember who you are", to which in her feverish state she remembers "blood of the dragon" and the like, is very dark one - she is turning away from things she likes and wants for herself (dragons don't plant) to things that are imposed on her, an unhealthy, destructive conqueror drive. But I don't think she will die just yet - whether Victaryon or Euron represent the "dread" of the prophecies, there is still "to love" part, so perhaps she might find some peace in her life (hopefully, not just peace of death)

It is tough to say. GRRM is cagey for sure, but I really have felt pretty much since book one that Dany is going to be the ultimate red herring and that when she dies it will be quick, pointless and totally change everything about pop literature forever.

[BalerionTheCat]

2 hours ago, YOVMO said:

It is tough to say. GRRM is cagey for sure, but I really have felt pretty much since book one that Dany is going to be the ultimate red herring and that when she dies it will be quick, pointless and totally change everything about pop literature forever.

It took me a long time to realize she was taking the bad road. But it became fully obvious when I saw who is going to associate with her: Dothrakis rapers and slavers, Red Priests fanatics, sellswords of dubious morality, Euron and Ironborns reavers. And all to conquer a throne, when there are more serious affairs. And good looking Aegon is likely to reach this goal with the Faith support before her return.

But to me, it started when she negotiated with Kraznys. She made a deal with him and betrayed it. If your enemy cannot trust you, you can never have a deal with him. And thus you cannot win by peace. Your reputation is the most precious thing you have when negotiating. And she has a bad one, among slavers and lords.

[YOVMO]

27 minutes ago, BalerionTheCat said:

It took me a long time to realize she was taking the bad road. But it became fully obvious when I saw who is going to associate with her: Dothrakis rapers and slavers, Red Priests fanatics, sellswords of dubious morality, Euron and Ironborns reavers. And all to conquer a throne, when there are more serious affairs. And good looking Aegon is likely to reach this goal with the Faith support before her return.

But to me, it started when she negotiated with Kraznys. She made a deal with him and betrayed it. If your enemy cannot trust you, you can never have a deal with him. And thus you cannot win by peace. Your reputation is the most precious thing you have when negotiating. And she has a bad one, among slavers and lords.

Agree with all of this with the exception of fAegon.

the fact that coming around to see dany for what she is is so difficult, I must say, I actually very, very cool

[BalerionTheCat]

20 minutes ago, YOVMO said:

Agree with all of this with the exception of fAegon.

I have two arguments for that part:

1. GRRM must have written Aegon for some purpose. Yes, he is fake and is likely the last attempt of the Blackfyres to gain the IT. IMO, he has fairly good chances of a quick success: "A cloth dragon swayed on poles amidst a cheering crowd".
2. ASoIaF is dealing with power in every form, including religious. So we should have a religious war: Faith against R'hllor. Aegon is seeking the Faith, the Red Priests are seeking Daenerys: the two should  meet.

[YOVMO]

2 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

I have two arguments for that part:

1. GRRM must have written Aegon for some purpose. Yes, he is fake and is likely the last attempt of the Blackfyres to gain the IT. IMO, he has fairly good chances of a quick success: "A cloth dragon swayed on poles amidst a cheering crowd".
2. ASoIaF is dealing with power in every form, including religious. So we should have a religious war: Faith against R'hllor. Aegon is seeking the Faith, the Red Priests are seeking Daenerys: the two should  meet.

I have no problem with either of these. statements in general. Of course fAegon will server a purpose. If he is the cloth dragon, however, cheering crowds won't necessarily mean victory.

I too am expecting a religious war. I really do believe that Dany is the big red herring the the series and will meet her death in an incredibly anti-climactic way.

 

I guess my big problem is that I just don't see the possibility or feasibility of an end game where the seven kingdoms are united under the throne....especially a throne held by a targ.

One thing that I am fairly sure of, if nothing else, is that whatever the endgame is it will be different than all the players think and, more than likely, be different than the reader suspects. I've long believed in doomsday and new spring of mankind. 

I think that if the books remain true to their character they have to, in the end, implode on themselves and see the total destruction of westeros....

[BalerionTheCat]

5 hours ago, YOVMO said:

I guess my big problem is that I just don't see the possibility or feasibility of an end game where the seven kingdoms are united under the throne....especially a throne held by a targ.

One thing that I am fairly sure of, if nothing else, is that whatever the endgame is it will be different than all the players think and, more than likely, be different than the reader suspects. I've long believed in doomsday and new spring of mankind. 

I think that if the books remain true to their character they have to, in the end, implode on themselves and see the total destruction of westeros....

I don't see that either. The Long Night will be an apocalypse, like the first one. And I believe a new Golden Age will come of it. With a Warden for all realms and mankind: the only begotten son of the Lion of Night and Maiden-Made-of-Light.