Little finger threatening Lord Royce

[Pies are coming]

2 hours ago, Valetudo said:

He's the Lord of the Riverlands in name only. Do you believe the Freys or any other house would follow his orders? Do you believe they pay him taxes?

Tyrion also was Lord Protector of the North for a moment. Did this make him more powerful?

The only reason why The Royces and the other houses of the Vale accepted him was because of SR. When he gave him to the Royces, what prevented them to name themselves regent? We have to believe that they decided to keep under LF rule because???

If there is a regent in the Vale, why did Littlefinger told Cersei that "young Lord Robin" heeds his advice instead of "I have a good understanding with the regent of the Vale"?

5 hours ago, Maid So Fair said:

Ok, lets hand wave this whole scene and assume LF's plan was a raging success. He has somehow managed to convince an innocent man that he's in fact a traitor. Good on him. 

Whats the next step in LF's plan? That's right, calling the Vale banners, which means that before long all those lords of the Vale, who already mistrust LF and were barely convinced he didn't murder Lysa, will be converging to wherever LF and SR are meant to be right now, each at the head of a huge-ass army of his/her own sworn men. Including Royce btw. And we are to believe that none of these people will question why the reason they're all going to war is because somehow Sansa went from safely ensconced in th Vale to having tobe rescued in the North. Or that they will believe LF's obviously BS story? Royce will be too busy to tell them what happened between him and LF and that LF didn't even try to pretend he wasn't the traitor they all out he was? This whole things is ridiculous.

First, you assume the other minor Lords of the Vale are buddies with Royce and don't have any conflict with him. You also assume the other Lords couldn't assume someone - LF, Royce, Sansa, the carriage drivers - didn't accidentally spill the beans. You also assume Sansa won't cover up for Littlefinger. You also assume Royce will survive after the Boltons are defeated.

And you forget this is LF we're talking about. He framed Tyrion for murder even though Tyrion was coming to KL and was the Queen's brother. What happens if LF can't kill him on the road, Catelyn doesn't arrest him and Ned confronts Tyrion publicly the moment Tyrion arrives to the Red Keep?

8 hours ago, Mikeygigs said:

How so? Its more honorable to let Littlefinger misuse the boy for his own power? Littlefinger is not a paragon of honor. He has a reputation for being dishonorable, and is pretty low in the feudal hierarchy, in fact. What honor is there in leaving your liege lord with someone like that?

The 'that's dishonorable' hand-waving shows the weakness of the Vale plot; characters broken down to only the basest traits with no real depth.

In any case, Littlefinger's power (in the real story) came from one main thing: he held Robert Arryn. Without that, he loses his power.

Giving Robin Arryn to Royce should have been like Ned telling Cersei to run for the hills; Littlefinger should have been dead.

LF doesn't have a reputation for being dishonorable. He has a reputation for being an accountant.

As for "the real story", that's the thing. There is the book story, and there is the show story. In the show story, Littlefinger's power comes from the love Robin Arryn has for him.

32 minutes ago, Tianzi said:

The concept of being underage exists. The 17-18 yo Joffrey had a regent, so does the 14 (?) yo Tommen. I didn't see any regents around Robert.

Robin being not quite there mentally is clear from his behavior, aven if they took away being sickly.

Of course there is confusion when the young lord/king and his minders give gifferent orders (apart from the specific Ned situation Joff got away partly because no one was that interested in tempering him and partly because Dontos and Sansa had very weak positions in KL, general war chaos, etc.), and the guards are guards, not law experts, but if they offed Royce like this, they would be trouble. Other Lords Declarants wouldn't probably accept that one of them was 'executed' without a proper trial, without witnesses, contacting at least some of them, etc. - it's something that can be done to a singer or NW deserter, but not a middle-scale lord. You don't throw nobles out like trash. They also aren't idiots, they don't trust LF and they would see that if he could do this to Royce, he could do the same to one of them. If Royce runs to them now and tell the story, it also should be an alert to them.

So, while it's true that LF technically could off Royce in the spur of the moment, it would be stupid of him in the long run, and sparing him with the newfound knowledge that LF is a liar in regards to Sansa, it's stupid too and the LD should bite him in the ass.

Who's Tommen regent? What makes you think there is such a thing as the concept of being underage.

And remember, Robin didn't order Royce's execution. Royce threatened Littlefinger, LF asked for Robin's ruling and Robin, by asking "shall we throw him through the Moon Door?" is ruling for Littlefinger.

If Royce doesn't obey and attacks Littlefinger, as he threatened, what's the trouble? The Lord of the Vale passed a judgment, one of his vassals didn't like it and assaulted a relative of said Lord. If there is some Lord looking to replace Robin for thin air (as he doesn't seem to have a heir in the show), then that hitherto unknown Lord could cause trouble. But everyone else? Lord Arryn ordered Royce to back off, and Royce disobeyed him.

[A Bong of Ice and Fire]

Just now, Valetudo said:

If the story is not believable, why would Robin believe it?

Robin may or may not believe the story.  He just will automatically side with Littlefinger in any conflict with Royce.  In the show he is completely Littlefinger's pawn.

[Valetudo]

Just now, A Bong of Ice and Fire said:

Robin may or may not believe the story.  He just will automatically side with Littlefinger in any conflict with Royce.  In the show he is completely Littlefinger's pawn.

Why?

[permaximum]

1 hour ago, Valetudo said:

What would be so bad or dangerous about declaring Littlefinger as an enemy? Which troops will protect LF?

Nobody likes LF, nobody is loyal to him, nobody cares if someone takes him down.

Do you think that the Lannisters would protect him? They have other problems to solve, and if the Royces kept loyal to the crown, I'm sure they would not even care about it.

And Royce didn't bat an eye when Sansa, a regicide suspect, came to the Vale. If he is so afraid of the Lannisters, wouldn't he be at least a little worried?

Same thing with the Boltons.

What exactly is SR will? Why would Royce have to imprison him to "take over" the Vale? Who do you think ruled the Vale during LF absence? Do you believe that they blindly followed every SR order? I pity every servant then, he must have ordered a lot of them to fly during this time. Do you really believe that SR really cares that much for LF? I'm sure than if Royce told him that he could throw him through the Moon Door, he would be delighted.

SR turned against Royce after receiving a gift and hearing a bullshit excuse. But what if he never received this gift? What if Royce didn't let LF approach him? Nobody in the Vale like him. That would have been the logical situation. LF could buy some of Royces guards, but if Royce ordered his men to arrest LF if ever he returns to the Vale, do you really believe that LF could buy everyone that would try to arrest him? Are all these Royce's men OK to be ruled by LF, a known traitor, just for some gold?

Royce wasn't happy when LF became Lord Protector, but was forced to accept it because LF had SR. Then LF left and Royce took control. Why would he give it away now that LF has nothing to bargain with?

Civil war? You're the one that said literally two posts before that the other Lords of the Vale were nonexistent on the show. But now Royce should be afraid of them?

But even forgetting about that, do you believe that the other Lords are happier with LF as regent than with Royce? Why?

And about other kingdoms invading them? just lol. Everybody else is at war with each other. Nobody has enough strengh to take the Vale.

Fan of Karl phooking Tanner, the legend of Gin Alley??? Enough said.

Because it will give all the other kingdoms the right to invade the Vale when they're free from other problems. It's not about liking Littlefinger or not. It's about the right that would give the Crown and the new Lord of Riverlands to invade the Vale.

Robin likes Littlefinger more than Royce. That's enough to make Robin angry in the case of Royce decides to take matter into his own and declare Littlefinger an enemy.

The Civil War would happen between those that's loyal to the Arryns and The Crown and Royces.

It doesn't mean the other kingdoms won't turn their sight to the Vale when they're free from their own problems in the case of what you think should have happened.

I was a fan of Karl Tanner because of the hillarious dialogues and the actor played him perfectly. What's bad about that? I was also a fan of Ser Barristan Selmy and pre-resurrection Jon Snow along with Pre-Daenerys (the worst actress in the show) Tyrion.

I liked all of them for different reasons. In the case of Littlefinger, his scenes are the only ones with some thoughtful writing. Also it helps, those scenes are not fan-service unlike Jon Snow or Daenerys' scenes.

[A Bong of Ice and Fire]

1 minute ago, Valetudo said:

Why?

Why is Robin so loyal to Littlefinger?  I guess because he gets presents from him, warmth, fatherly advice, is "family", and probably he hates being under Royce's strict control and having to train at things he sucks at.  Is it completely realistic?  Eh, I don't know, but in the show he is LF's pawn.

[Tianzi]

1 minute ago, Pies are coming said:

Who's Tommen regent? What makes you think there is such a thing as the concept of being underage.

Kevan? Mace? I don't remember, but I remember Cersei being the regent for Joffrey. If this concept doesn't exist, please say how would you explain the fact that Joff had a regent while Robert didn't.

3 minutes ago, Pies are coming said:

And remember, Robin didn't order Royce's execution. Royce threatened Littlefinger, LF asked for Robin's ruling and Robin, by asking "shall we throw him through the Moon Door?" is ruling for Littlefinger.

If Royce doesn't obey and attacks Littlefinger, as he threatened, what's the trouble? The Lord of the Vale passed a judgment, one of his vassals didn't like it and assaulted a relative of said Lord. If there is some Lord looking to replace Robin for thin air (as he doesn't seem to have a heir in the show), then that hitherto unknown Lord could cause trouble. But everyone else? Lord Arryn ordered Royce to back off, and Royce disobeyed him.

But Rouce didn't attack LF, did he? So if Sweetrobin proceeded with executing him, it would be by the threat alone. of course, the story could be changed when it reaches the other lords, but the signal is clear - Robin didn't even arrest him, but disposed of him like a trash. How did Robb's execution of Karstark look like? I remember it being public, at the very least. LD know Robin as an impressionable and not so bright child/teenager, they would smell LF's shit from a mile. If they aren't completely dumb, they would understand who was really behind it, why nobody heard Royce make a statement (Karstark did, Ned did) and that if LF could so easily get rid of Royce, they can be in for the same ride. Replacing Robin is one thing and they might not want that, but getting rid of his poisonous liar stepfather who manipulates him and can be a danger for them all - another thing.

[permaximum]

We must assume Robin loved Petyr Baelish even before they first met on the screen in season 4. In their first meeting, Robin again scream "Uncle Petyr" and ran towards him. Knowing Baelish' intelligence, manipulation skills and charming personality it was probably easy for him to get with Robin well. With a single line back in season 4, the writers gave background to their relation. And that's fine because we don't need unnecessary things like this in the show.

[Valetudo]

Royce didn't have to dispose of LF in public. Again, nobody likes him or back him up. Just say that he died in an hunting accident or something. If SR was dumb enough to believe LF story, he will believe that too.

Lannisters won't care if you keep loyal to the crown. That's the feudal system. The crown doesn't care about who the vassals are, as long as they stay loyal to them.

Why would the Crown invade the Vale? They're already part of the seven Kingdoms and are loyal to them.

Why would it be more easy for the Riverlands to invade them? What force do the Vale loose with the death of LF? 

About the civil war, why would any Arryn supporters wan't their liege Lord to be controlled by LF?

[Pies are coming]

35 minutes ago, Tianzi said:

Kevan? Mace? I don't remember, but I remember Cersei being the regent for Joffrey. If this concept doesn't exist, please say how would you explain the fact that Joff had a regent while Robert didn't.

Joffrey did as he wanted, Cersei had no power over him. As for Robin, Littlefinger clearly tells Cersei, in the past season, that Robin heeds his advice. Not that he is his regent, not that the regent listens to him, but that Robin heeds his advice. Other than a neon sign, there is no other way for the show to state that Robin Arryn has no regent and rules the Vale.

 

Quote

But Rouce didn't attack LF, did he? So if Sweetrobin proceeded with executing him, it would be by the threat alone. of course, the story could be changed when it reaches the other lords, but the signal is clear - Robin didn't even arrest him, but disposed of him like a trash. How did Robb's execution of Karstark look like? I remember it being public, at the very least. LD know Robin as an impressionable and not so bright child/teenager, they would smell LF's shit from a mile. If they aren't completely dumb, they would understand who was really behind it, why nobody heard Royce make a statement (Karstark did, Ned did) and that if LF could so easily get rid of Royce, they can be in for the same ride. Replacing Robin is one thing and they might not want that, but getting rid of his poisonous liar stepfather who manipulates him and can be a danger for them all - another thing.

Which Lords Declarants? Three lords show up after Lysa's death, buy Sansa's story and that's it. There are no Lord Declarants in the show. There is no siege of the Eyre. There is none antagonizing Baelish in the show.

And no, Royce threatened to attack Littlefinger, so Robin threatened to execute Royce and, therefore, Royce backed off. Damn it, those Lords of the Vale obeying their liege! How dare them!

[permaximum]

1 hour ago, Valetudo said:

Royce didn't have to dispose of LF in public. Again, nobody likes him or back him up. Just say that he died in an hunting accident or something. If SR was dumb enough to believe LF story, he will believe that too.

Lannisters won't care if you keep loyal to the crown. That's the feudal system. The crown doesn't care about who the vassals are, as long as they stay loyal to them.

Why would the Crown invade the Vale? They're already part of the seven Kingdoms and are loyal to them.

Why would it be more easy for the Riverlands to invade them? What force do the Vale loose with the death of LF? 

About the civil war, why would any Arryn supporters wan't their liege Lord to be controlled by LF?

SR didn't care about the authenticity of the story. He would have sided with LF no matter what.

The Crown would care about controlling the Vale because they're in the war with seemingly everyone. If you think they can control Royce freely, you're a lost soul.

Because they would want to attach a new management they could control and dictate their order 100% of the time.

I never said easy. I said it would give the Riverlands the right and potentially the backing of the Crown to invade the North. The Vale would löse nothing aside from the fact that they would go into a Civil War.

They wouldn't want it. But they would kill those WHO did anything against their Lord's orders and wishes.

 

Any more questions, so we can enlighten you more about this scene? If you had the quarter of the questions you had for this scene for a scene with Brienne you would probably go mad.

 

[GilletteMace]

sansa will tell sweetrob that it was littlefinger who killed his mother. SR will get furious and order to kick LF down the moon door. case solved.

[permaximum]

1 hour ago, GilletteMace said:

sansa will tell sweetrob that it was littlefinger who killed his mother. SR will get furious and order to kick LF down the moon door. case solved.

Littlefinger will deny it and SR will believe LF and get furious and kick Sansa down the moon door. Case solved.

[Maid So Fair]

2 hours ago, Pies are coming said:

If there is a regent in the Vale, why did Littlefinger told Cersei that "young Lord Robin" heeds his advice instead of "I have a good understanding with the regent of the Vale"?

First, you assume the other minor Lords of the Vale are buddies with Royce and don't have any conflict with him. You also assume the other Lords couldn't assume someone - LF, Royce, Sansa, the carriage drivers - didn't accidentally spill the beans. You also assume Sansa won't cover up for Littlefinger. You also assume Royce will survive after the Boltons are defeated

IDK, to make Cersei believe he's more important than he is? Lol

I'm not assuming anything and I'm not talking about minor lords either - I'm referring to the Lords Declarent who we saw acting together and who are the principal Vale bannermen. And of course they have more reason. to trust Royce, who they have known all their lives and who comes across a honest and honourable, than a stranger who is usurping power for himself, obviously manipulating Robin, known for his schemes, and who they suspected of murdering his own wife the last time they met. That's not even that LF is basically openly admitting to be a traitor as his story doesn't hold up to even minimal scrutiny.

Why would everybody wait until this is all over before asking pertinent questions? What Sans says and whether Royce survives the war is completely irrelevant to the Lords of the Vale taking LF how the hell she ended up in the North and married to a Bolton. That should be the first question out of their mouth. And LF's story is completely ridiculous - even if someone told Boltons, how did they manage to get a special commando ten to the Vale without anybody noticing and to cover several time longer journey in less time than it took LF and Sansa to reach the Fingers? Spill the beans to who? How? And somehow LF and all his men survive this? And his response isn't to raise alarm but to disappear for months an then saunter in as if nothing happened? He looks shady as hell, even if they didn't all distrust him already. 

[Maid So Fair]

BTW killing LF discreetly is the simplest thing ever.

Cersei: Have you seen LF?

Vale Lords(VL): We thought he was with you? Last time we saw him he was riding out of the Bloody Gate. He said he had to attend to something in KL?

Cersei: Well, he's not here.

VL: Are you sure he didn't just teleport somewhere else? He does travel a lot.

Cersei: I don't think so? He's not been seen in a while.

VL: Well, the roads are dangerous these days. We've had major issues with the Mountain clans since your brother armed them. And there's all those outlaws in the RL, too. It's a terrible tragedy - SR really liked him.

Cersei: Oh, snap! But you're still loyal to Tommen?

VL: Oh, totally.

Cersei: Well, I guess then we're cool.

 

[Valetudo]

3 minutes ago, Maid So Fair said:

BTW killing LF discreetly is the simplest thing ever.

Cersei: Have you seen LF?

Vale Lords(VL): We thought he was with you? Last time we saw him he was riding out of the Bloody Gate. He said he had to attend to something in KL?

Cersei: Well, he's not here.

VL: Are you sure he didn't just teleport somewhere else? He does travel a lot.

Cersei: I don't think so? He's not been seen in a while.

VL: Well, the roads are dangerous these days. We've had major issues with the Mountain clans since your brother armed them. And there's all those outlaws in the RL, too. It's a terrible tragedy - SR really liked him.

Cersei: Oh, snap! But you're still loyal to Tommen?

VL: Oh, totally.

Cersei: Well, I guess then we're cool.

 

Don't you see that this will automatically create a civil war and an invasion by the other Kingoms! /s

[tormund's beard]

23 minutes ago, Valetudo said:

Don't you see that this will automatically create a civil war and an invasion by the other Kingoms! /s

why ?

[GilletteMace]

2 hours ago, permaximum said:

Littlefinger will deny it and SR will believe LF and get furious and kick Sansa down the moon door. Case solved.

SR will be around the corner listening when Sansa confronts LF with what has happened in the past and how she saved his ass. moon door, bye LF. case solved.

[Maid So Fair]

23 minutes ago, Valetudo said:

Don't you see that this will automatically create a civil war and an invasion by the other Kingoms! /s

The War for Petyr's Cold Rotting Fingers, the singers will call it.

[tormund's beard]

it's just petyr "little finger" baelish, no one gives two shits about the man, the moment the guy is more trouble than not he's death and forgoten. his "allies" are the lannisters, the lannister have bigger troubles than the wellbeing of little finger, i could see how in peace time killing him would be a challenge to the kings authority but in war ravaged westeros were most houses are low on money, food and man power as long as the lords of the vale keep the kings peace no one gives a solitary fuck about LF.

[permaximum]

Some guys here don't have the required intelligence to understand that in that absurd and idiotic scenerio, potential Arryn and Royce çivil war along with 3rd party interferences have nothing to do with if anyone likes LF or not..