Little finger threatening Lord Royce

[Primalsplit]

2 hours ago, ImNoSer said:

I thought LF was lord of the vale, and was acting as a regent of sorts until SR came of age. I thought legally LF could have basically had royce arrested/killed right there if he wanted. He wanted to show royce that he has full control, so he let SR take charge.

First thing you need to understand about feudalism is, Feudal Lord =/= Governor. They are basically a vassal. A King does not have complete authority over his subjects. A vassal is mostly bound by military service to aid his liege on his campaigns. The kingdom's laws are his lands' laws. Basically, vassals owe fealty and loyalty but not servitude like slaves. A vassal is not ruling a castle and lands in his lieges name. Those are basically his own property. His garrison, his own. His castle, his own. His people, his own. His land, his own. Not the king's.

This is not absolute monarchy where an Emperor basically owns every bit of lands in his Empire, but merely appoints mini-rulers to rule in his stead. That's why Royce's own men would not do shit if Sweetrobin or Littlefinger gave them an order that would be against house Royce. That's why kings needed to be careful when they needed to deal with their own vassals. That's why Robert could overthrew Aerys, because Aerys alienated his own bannermen. That's why Tywin's army simply razed King's Landing, despite it was Aerys' own city. Because the soldiers listened to their lords, which listened to Tywin as those lords are the bannermen of Tywin. That's why Catelyn told to Robb that "Those are your bannermen, not your friends. You can't appear weak in front of men like Bolton or Umber." Because if you do, those people will outright disobey your commands if they know they can get away with impunity. Pretty much sums the attitude of Walder Frey towards Tullies.

For soldiers, there is no belonging to a "state" or a "country". You answer only to your lord. Some obvious differences between large areas are present like Westerosi, Essosi; or even Southerner, Northerner.. The only kingdom that seems to have grown a semblence of a national identity of itself is Dorne, and it's only small. Makes more sense because their prosperity and easier climate would have allowed themselves to develop a bit further on politics scale.

This is the biggest anachronism in this show.

[TickTak7]

2 hours ago, ImNoSer said:

I thought LF was lord of the vale, and was acting as a regent of sorts until SR came of age. I thought legally LF could have basically had royce arrested/killed right there if he wanted. He wanted to show royce that he has full control, so he let SR take charge.

 

Well he married Lysa, who controlled the Vale, and then Lysa went down the Moon Door. 

So I suppose, technically, Littlefinger IS Lord of the Vale... 

[Valetudo]

7 minutes ago, Pies are coming said:

This is why I bring the books. People are bringing book canon to discuss show canon. Show!Robin isn't a child, is a teenager, and he isn't sickly at all.

He's surrounded by Arryn guards, as he should, and the moment he suggests Royce has betrayed Robin's cousin to her enemies, the Arryn guards react by obeying their liege, Robin.

Royce may have his own guards elsewhere. That's not an issue. They aren't there, and fighting the will of healthy, teenage, Robin Arryn is treason.

Now, had Robin ordered the execution of Royce, things might have gotten trickier. The Royce guard might have rebelled against the Arryn guards. But Littlefinger quickly offered a peaceful solution to the conflict and Lord Robin Arryn accepted.

Where is the book canon! Do show Robin looks mentally and physically healthy to you? He was always shown as frail and mentally disturbed in the show.

Not a child anymore? Someone that is bribed with petty gifts, is still obsessed by throwing people through the Moon Door and ready to execute the man that fostered him for at least six months just because another man told him some shady story is clearly not the picture of maturity. The "coming of age" age is not something that is automatic, the "teenager" was supposed to be "fit to rule" before being given actual power. As long as he's acting like a child, nobody (or at least not everybody) will treat him as a man.

Why are you so sure these are Arryn guards? And why would Arryn guards accept to execute without questions their host?

[Valetudo]

21 minutes ago, Primalsplit said:

First thing you need to understand about feudalism is, Feudal Lord =/= Governor. They are basically a vassal. A King does not have complete authority over his subjects. A vassal is mostly bound by military service to aid his liege on his campaigns. The kingdom's laws are his lands' laws. Basically, vassals owe fealty and loyalty but not servitude like slaves. A vassal is not ruling a castle and lands in his lieges name. Those are basically his own property. His garrison, his own. His castle, his own. His people, his own. His land, his own. Not the king's.

This is not absolute monarchy where an Emperor basically owns every bit of lands in his Empire, but merely appoints mini-rulers to rule in his stead. That's why Royce's own men would not do shit if Sweetrobin or Littlefinger gave them an order that would be against house Royce. That's why kings needed to be careful when they needed to deal with their own vassals. That's why Robert could overthrew Aerys, because Aerys alienated his own bannermen. That's why Tywin's army simply razed King's Landing, despite it was Aerys' own city. Because the soldiers listened to their lords, which listened to Tywin as those lords are the bannermen of Tywin. That's why Catelyn told to Robb that "Those are your bannermen, not your friends. You can't appear weak in front of men like Bolton or Umber." Because if you do, those people will outright disobey your commands if they know they can get away with impunity. Pretty much sums the attitude of Walder Frey towards Tullies.

This is the biggest anachronism in this show.

[Sigrid]

On 5/18/2016 at 11:28 AM, The Chequered Raven said:

The question is - why does LF makes such a mistake?

Up to now he has hidden his schemes very well.

This absolutely.  This shows how the one (terrible in my opinion) change of having Sansa delivered to the Boltons has a domino effect of undermining the development of other characters.  The Littlefinger we have come to know would have known that Ramsay was an unstable sadist, he would have kept his prize of Sansa under his immediate control.  Now he is acting even more out of character to address the missteps before.  So frustrating.  Littlefinger's skill at playing the game is one of the best things about the character, and now that is compromised.

[TickTak7]

4 minutes ago, Sigrid said:

This absolutely.  This shows how the one (terrible in my opinion) change of having Sansa delivered to the Boltons has a domino effect of undermining the development of other characters.  The Littlefinger we have come to know would known that Ramsay was an unstable sadist, he would have kept his prize of Sansa under his immediate control.  Now he is acting even more out of character to address the missteps before.  So frustrating.  Littlefinger's skill at playing the game is one of the best things about the character, and now that is compromised.

The actor who plays Littlefinger (Aidan Gillen) said in an interview that he didn't know how cruel Ramsey was, and that one of his motivations is to redeem himself to Sansa. 

That doesn't sound like a mischaracterization at all - we know he adores Sansa, and we know he has selfish motivations centered around land & power. 

He has manipulated the Vale to give him an army, and he's about to try and manipulate Team JonSa to try and take Winterfell. 

I don't agree that this is some massive side-step from the "real" Littlefinger. 

[Valetudo]

7 minutes ago, Sigrid said:

This absolutely.  This shows how the one (terrible in my opinion) change of having Sansa delivered to the Boltons has a domino effect of undermining the development of other characters.  The Littlefinger we have come to know would known that Ramsay was an unstable sadist, he would have kept his prize of Sansa under his immediate control.  Now he is acting even more out of character to address the missteps before.  So frustrating.  Littlefinger's skill at playing the game is one of the best things about the character, and now that is compromised.

He's going all-in supposing that SR is dumb enough to swallow his excuse but powerful enough to threaten the other Lords.

What could go wrong!

[Maid So Fair]

8 hours ago, Pies are coming said:

At King's Landing. Robin is, at all times, happy to see Littlefinger, even if he's a little piece of shit and throws his gifts

Hm, how old is SR even meant to be on the show? That was years ago. And if you're secretly banging the wife of the Hand of the King behind his back, you probably don't want to be seen hanging around his kid all that much LOL.

But even if SR thought LF was the best thing since Moon Door invention, that doesn't explain why everybody feels the need to take SR seriously when ordering something so extreme and while being obviously manipulated by a shady character like LF.  The response of any reasonable person to LF's revelation is to escort him into a dungeon and then escort SR to bed without supper if he throws too much of a fit. Remember when Tywin kicked Joff out of his own council meeting?

 

[Valetudo]

4 minutes ago, Maid So Fair said:

Hm, how old is SR even meant to be on the show? That was years ago. And if you're secretly banging the wife of the Hand of the King behind his back, you probably don't want to be seen hanging around his kid all that much LOL.

But even if SR thought LF was the best thing since Moon Door invention, that doesn't explain why everybody feels the need to take SR seriously when ordering something so extreme and while being obviously manipulated by a shady character like LF.  The response of any reasonable person to LF's revelation is to escort him into a dungeon and then escort SR to bed without supper if he throws too much of a fit. Remember when Tywin kicked Joff out of his own council meeting?

 

I now understand why the "honour gets you killed" line is so popular.

People seem to assume that being loyal = accept every stupid order without hesitation.

[permaximum]

Royce is way below Lord Baelish's power and status in Westeros even if LF wasn't the acting Lord of the Vale with tremendous amount of money who can buy his loyal knights easily. In fact LF didn't need Robin Arryn's confirmation there. He just made a point that even the actual Lord of the Vale is in his control. This is simple as that. If you can't get it I wonder how could you bear watching Game of Thrones so far.

[Sigrid]

1 hour ago, TickTak7 said:

The actor who plays Littlefinger (Aidan Gillen) said in an interview that he didn't know how cruel Ramsey was, and that one of his motivations is to redeem himself to Sansa. 

That doesn't sound like a mischaracterization at all - we know he adores Sansa, and we know he has selfish motivations centered around land & power. 

He has manipulated the Vale to give him an army, and he's about to try and manipulate Team JonSa to try and take Winterfell. 

I don't agree that this is some massive side-step from the "real" Littlefinger. 

I've heard that the show character was supposed to have not known about Ramsay.  I see it as a fault of the show writers because the LF they had built up (and definitely the book version) would have known about Ramsay and Roose's reputations, and if he didn't know what kind of people they were, I don't think he would have given away someone as practically and personally valuable to him as Sansa.  His whole skill is exploiting the nature of people and having alternate plans.  That he would be caught unaware of Ramsay's reputation is unbelievable to me.

Like many other things, LF is just a victim of the adaptation.  Ultimately I think that he will somehow end up betraying Sansa for his own personal gains in the books.  It will just happen in a different way, and he will know exactly what he is doing.

[Valetudo]

Strange how honor and being loyal is such a strong reason why Vale's guards accept every SR whim, but when talking about honor or loyalty of Royce's men, they are easily bought.

Royce clearly below LF? lol

LF is a nobody from a small house. He now has titles and land, but only in paper (Harenhall), or only until SR comes of age (The Vale, but following show logic it's over since SR is old enough to command his men). He has no army of its own. He only has power on the show because SR is too dumb to understand that he's being used. Giving him an army in exchange of a falcon is not what I call a great deal.

Yes, he's rich,but a lot of people are. Did he bought all Royce's men, and the other Lords of the Vale as well? Seems rather expensive to get an army , specially knowing that he could have had their support for free if he didn't gave Sansa to the Boltons and used her to convince SR to go to war for her instead.

[Simbacca]

54 minutes ago, permaximum said:

Royce is way below Lord Baelish's power and status in Westeros even if LF wasn't the acting Lord of the Vale with tremendous amount of money who can buy his loyal knights easily. In fact LF didn't need Robin Arryn's confirmation there. He just made a point that even the actual Lord of the Vale is in his control. This is simple as that. If you can't get it I wonder how could you bear watching Game of Thrones so far.

Robert and Ned were below King Areys but they still rebelled against him.  Jamie was below King Areys but he still stabbed him in the back.  LF is not some sorcerer.  Not some god.

EDIT:  

Neither is Robin

[Mikeygigs]

So, the first problem was that Royce had an underage Robin Arryn and did not immediately take control of him and separate him from Littlefinger's influence (namely by isolating Robin, declaring himself lord protector, and making sure Littlefinger was arrested as soon as he turned up in Runestone).

This scene was just meant to get the plot back on track. Did it make sense? Nope, but this scene has its roots in the brilliant decision to have Ramsay rape Sansa Stark.

[Valetudo]

47 minutes ago, Mikeygigs said:

So, the first problem was that Royce had an underage Robin Arryn and did not immediately take control of him and separate him from Littlefinger's influence (namely by isolating Robin, declaring himself lord protector, and making sure Littlefinger was arrested as soon as he turned up in Runestone).

This scene was just meant to get the plot back on track. Did it make sense? Nope, but this scene has its roots in the brilliant decision to have Ramsay rape Sansa Stark.

Even worse for LF. Knowing now how this season will go according to what we already saw and multiple spoilers, it's pretty clear that the whole "Sansa in Winterfell" arc of season 5 was pure filler and totally counterproductive for LF.

Spoiler

Sansa and Jon will unite the North, LF will command the Vale troops, and they'll take Winterfell together. But LF giving Sansa to Ramsey will certainly create some tension between them. And using threats and/or bribes to secure the help of the Vale is not ideal too.

They could have achieved the same results with a much more believable story so easily

Spoiler

Sansa is betrothed to SR, the Vale joins willingly without using bullshit threats, take ships to white harbour or "go around Moat Callin" (lol) and serve as a rally point for the Northern Houses, take WF without creating any enmities in the process

 

[Pies are coming]

2 hours ago, TickTak7 said:

 

Well he married Lysa, who controlled the Vale, and then Lysa went down the Moon Door. 

So I suppose, technically, Littlefinger IS Lord of the Vale... 

No. The show makes it clear, over and over. Robin Arryn is the Lord of the Vale. Even when Littlefinger boasts to Cersei, he claims "Young Robin heeds to my advise". The same happened with Joffrey and Tommen. They are the Kings, they issue orders. Their indeterminate age doesn't matter.

2 hours ago, Valetudo said:

Where is the book canon! Do show Robin looks mentally and physically healthy to you? He was always shown as frail and mentally disturbed in the show.

Not a child anymore? Someone that is bribed with petty gifts, is still obsessed by throwing people through the Moon Door and ready to execute the man that fostered him for at least six months just because another man told him some shady story is clearly not the picture of maturity. The "coming of age" age is not something that is automatic, the "teenager" was supposed to be "fit to rule" before being given actual power. As long as he's acting like a child, nobody (or at least not everybody) will treat him as a man.

Why are you so sure these are Arryn guards? And why would Arryn guards accept to execute without questions their host?

Robin was always healthy in the show. He doesn't have epilepsy, he's not even shown catching a cold. He isn't sick. As for being a spoiled piece of shit, that holds true for a lot of other Westerosi Lords. Did anyone complained when Joffrey, who was about Robin's age, ordered a man's tongue to be ripped at court?

I've just rewatched the scene. There are four guards. Two are behind Royce and were watching over the training. The other four came escorting Littlefinger's carriage. Those are Arryn guards, and definitely owe no fealty to Royce. They are not part of Royce's household. They even carry Arryn, not Royce, flags.

So, Royce tells everyone he heard Sansa married Ramsay. Littlefinger answers back saying they were ambushed and points at Royce as the snitch.

And then Royce tells Littlefinger that slandering him in his home means looking for a fight. And Littlefinger responds the way vassals with disputes are supposed to do: he defers to their liege, Robin Arryn.

Robin then takes some five seconds to consider the dispute and passes judgment, in favor of Littlefinger. At that point, the four guards escorting Littlefinger step towards Royce, reinforcing the will of his liege. And then the two guards behind Royce, who may very well be at Robin service instead of Royce (ie, Robin's personal security detail) step towards Royce. Had they wanted to defy the first 4 guards they'd have to fight two men each (ie, they would get killed) and they would be raising in arms against the judgment of the Lord of the Vale, who's above Royce in the hierarchy.

[Pies are coming]

50 minutes ago, Mikeygigs said:

So, the first problem was that Royce had an underage Robin Arryn and did not immediately take control of him and separate him from Littlefinger's influence (namely by isolating Robin, declaring himself lord protector, and making sure Littlefinger was arrested as soon as he turned up in Runestone).

That's dishonorable

[Tianzi]

4 minutes ago, Pies are coming said:

That's dishonorable

Well, then Royce might experience Ned Stark school of dying for his trouble.

About Robin's age and capability to act as a lord: when Gilly gave birth to her still-not-walking child, Robin was sucking Lysa's breast. Now, his actor is now a teenager, but Robin might be supposed to be younger (the timeline is muddy), he is obviously underage, and not mentally capable to rule. Even Joffrey had some checks on his power, and Royce was in no way in way in Ned's situation - he wasn't arrested, he wasn't already judged or declared a traitor. So a whim of a mentally unstable child/teenage lord - to execute a noble without judgement - should cause some doubt to the guards, who would know it's going to prompt a shitstorm from the other lords declarants. Robin should be able only arrest Royce, and Royce should be shouting about a proper trial and gaining the rest of the lords.

And him and the rest of the lords, as soon as they gather, should quietly dispose of LF now when he's shown his true colors.

[Pies are coming]

6 minutes ago, Tianzi said:

Well, then Royce might experience Ned Stark school of dying for his trouble.

About Robin's age and capability to act as a lord: when Gilly gave birth to her still-not-walking child, Robin was sucking Lysa's breast. Now, his actor is now a teenager, but Robin might be supposed to be younger (the timeline is muddy), he is obviously underage, and not mentally capable to rule. Even Joffrey had some checks on his power, and Royce was in no way in way in Ned's situation - he wasn't arrested, he wasn't already judged or declared a traitor. So a whim of a mentally unstable child/teenage lord - to execute a noble without judgement - should cause some doubt to the guards, who would know it's going to prompt a shitstorm from the other lords declarants. Robin should be able only arrest Royce, and Royce should be shouting about a proper trial and gaining the rest of the lords.

And him and the rest of the lords, as soon as they gather, should quietly dispose of LF now when he's shown his true colors.

Trying to make sense of the timelines is impossible. And part of that comes with the nature of the adaptation: the actors grow one year between seasons, even if only months or days were to happen between seasons. Seventeen years old Sophie Turner, playing Sansa when she was married to Tyrion claimed to fourteen. Can anyone claim the Sansa who walked into Castle Black looks fifteen, or sixteen? She's a woman grown (and Sophie being tall doesn't help to make her look younger).

The show doesn't have any concept of "underage". Tywin was the only one who could stand up to Joffrey (Tyrion tried, and see how that turned out for him) and he was the Hand of the King, the leader of the Lannister army, and commanded the personal loyalty of the Lannister portion of the Small Council. What kind of checks did Joffrey have when he ordered Ned's execution? Or when he had Sansa stripped and beaten in front of the court? When he ordered Ser Dontos execution by drowning because he showed drunk at a petty tournament, the "check" was convincing him that making a fool out of him was a better punishment.

And when did Show!Robin displayed any sort of mental handicap?

Rewatch the scene. Robin doesn't outright say "Men! Execute Lord Royce!". He says "Shall we throw him out of the Moon Door?". That's saying "I'm ruling in favor of Littlefinger and I can be convinced of having you executed in a trial by judge (him) for selling out my cousin to her enemies". What's Royce going to do after he physically threatened Littlefinger and his liege told him "No"? Are we expecting him to swing a sword against Littlefinger and cut him open? He'll have to fight at least the four guards that came with Littlefinger's carriage, if the two behind him don't side with Lord Arryn. And even if he wins, what is he going to do? He's a traitor. The Lord of the Vale - and the show is very clear in that Robin is the one capable of calling the shots - told him he couldn't attack Littlefinger. Why would the Lords of the Vale side with a traitor who attacked Arryn's men because the Lord didn't rule in his favor?

 

I'm sorry, but I still think we're coming at the scene from two different canons. Book canon doesn't apply here. In the books Robert Arryn is a seven years old child, epileptic, with a fame of being sickly (which he doesn't show beyond epileptic attacks), depressed, legally unable to issue any sort of order and fully lacking household troops answering directly to House Arryn.

Ok. But those are the books. The show uses a different canon and, for all we know, Arryn's household troops outnumber Royce three to one. And the character is certainly older than seven years old.

[Valetudo]

5 minutes ago, Pies are coming said:

No. The show makes it clear, over and over. Robin Arryn is the Lord of the Vale. Even when Littlefinger boasts to Cersei, he claims "Young Robin heeds to my advise". The same happened with Joffrey and Tommen. They are the Kings, they issue orders. Their indeterminate age doesn't matter.

Robin was always healthy in the show. He doesn't have epilepsy, he's not even shown catching a cold. He isn't sick. As for being a spoiled piece of shit, that holds true for a lot of other Westerosi Lords. Did anyone complained when Joffrey, who was about Robin's age, ordered a man's tongue to be ripped at court?

I've just rewatched the scene. There are four guards. Two are behind Royce and were watching over the training. The other four came escorting Littlefinger's carriage. Those are Arryn guards, and definitely owe no fealty to Royce. They are not part of Royce's household. They even carry Arryn, not Royce, flags.

So, Royce tells everyone he heard Sansa married Ramsay. Littlefinger answers back saying they were ambushed and points at Royce as the snitch.

And then Royce tells Littlefinger that slandering him in his home means looking for a fight. And Littlefinger responds the way vassals with disputes are supposed to do: he defers to their liege, Robin Arryn.

Robin then takes some five seconds to consider the dispute and passes judgment, in favor of Littlefinger. At that point, the four guards escorting Littlefinger step towards Royce, reinforcing the will of his liege. And then the two guards behind Royce, who may very well be at Robin service instead of Royce (ie, Robin's personal security detail) step towards Royce. Had they wanted to defy the first 4 guards they'd have to fight two men each (ie, they would get killed) and they would be raising in arms against the judgment of the Lord of the Vale, who's above Royce in the hierarchy.

Mental health also exists! SR clearly has some problems in that category. You call it being spoiled, but it goes way beyond that. A teenager that is obsessed with sending people flying, even his biggest and strongest ally (and also the guy that fostered him for months) clearly is not sane.  A teenager that doesn't understand that someone (who he had certainly already been warned about) that tells him that he was attacked months after the fact is not trustworthy clearly has some problems.

 Nobody complained when Joffrey ordered to rip the tongue of a lowborn singer (even if some people were shocked). True enough.

But do you believe that it would have been the same if he would have ordered to kill Mace Tyrell during an hypothetical visit to High Garden, because Cersei told him that he killed his father during the hunt (young ruler orders to kill strongest ally in his lands following the advice of an untrustworthy adviser telling him an unbelievable story)? Would like to see that. 

For the guards, I'll trust your review, having no will to see it again myself. But isn't it suspicious that the Lord of the Vale and his strongest ally and protector would be protected only by two guards? And isn't it suspicious that the carriage with a guy that Royce suspects to be a traitor was allowed to go near them? Yes, you can say that LF bribed them, but that's clearly not how the scene is played. Royce doesn't seem surprised to see LF, and the guards really seem to be following SR orders without discussion.

Now that you told me about the numbers of guards present, I concede that the scene, taken in this absurd context, is believable.

The guards present with LF were certainly the same that went with him to Winterfell, so they're certainly corrupt, or they would have said that LF story was bullshit (here goes the legendary honor of house Arryn guards, lol). The other two guards, being outnumbered, did what it took to stay alive. I believed that more guard were present, but I was wrong. In that case, two guys (that could even be Arryn guards) following SR orders without question could be believable. It could even be comparable with Trant following Joffrey's most extreme orders for example.

But lets think about it: So, Royce talked shit about LF, declaring him as a traitor and told him that accusing him in his own home would be a bad idea, without having any of his guards present with him? Talk about stupid!

Even if the actual scene may be somewhat believable, the whole context is not.