question about the others

[house of dayne]

how many do you think there are? do you imagine them as an society or an army with countless other soldiers or are they instead a very small but powerful coven controlling the wights?

just curious about the thoughts of the members...as for myself, i imagine them as a distinct race and always believed they were and are numerous beings with a complex society behind them .

[Curled Finger]

I enjoy a timely topic.   You bring up distinct race.  Could be.   All I know for sure is that they aren't mentioned as frolicking with or hassling the COTF and/or Giants.    These 2 seem to be original.   I think it's possible the Others came later, but I couldn't say when.   Somewhere before or after the 1st Men.  I can only recall 1 actual mention and 1 possible mention of The Others in Westeros history:  The Long Night, where they appear to be vanquished for lack of a better word.   Then again they are alluded to in the tale of the Nights King and his Corpse Queen.   So they weren't obliterated, but were more or less culled for a while.   It's possible the 2 episodes are unrelated, but I think the hints in the NK tale are pretty strong nods to the Others.   Something happened to cause them to become less prevalent among the 1st Men, COTF and Giants.   Sure, there is this mysterious pact and the Wall, but those resilient buggers did seem to resurge during the NK's reign of terror.   With that in mind, these Others seem to enjoy dark magic and sacrifices.   Is there something at the Nightfort that allows them so close to the Wall?   Were they ever really that close with the NK?  

I imagine lots about them, but I think that's all we really know.   Lots of them?   I doubt it as they are seen so scarcely.   They are separate from the wights who enjoy a more public persona.  So I'm thinking they have thought and organization, but no clue as to their ultimate purpose or goal.   The Thenns have lived right next to The Lands of Always Winter forever and they seem to have lived as harmonious neighbors.  Until recently that is.   We need a lot more information to really get our heads around this er, culture.  

[House Cambodia]

How many? We've only seen and been told about thirteen.

[Macgregor of the North]

7 hours ago, house of dayne said:

how many do you think there are? do you imagine them as an society or an army with countless other soldiers or are they instead a very small but powerful coven controlling the wights?

just curious about the thoughts of the members...as for myself, i imagine them as a distinct race and always believed they were and are numerous beings with a complex society behind them .

I'll take a wee stab at this. 

I think their numbers are relatively low. They seem to have been living their own life without causing issues to anyone really as long as they receive the odd sacrifice. Maybe there are, and have been throughout history, Craster like people who are(and have been) sacrificing sons to the Others for whichever purpose they see fit to use the babies for, be it creating a new member or something different. And it's not only human babies, they take animal sacrifices to so its a blood thing overall that has kept them 'happy'. 

What I think may have spooked them though and made them become more hostile is when Waymar Royce prowled further North than he perhaps should have , with his Lordly clothing looking for all the world to see like an actual Lord Commander, and a fancy Jewel hilted blade at his hip. 

I think the Others possibly begun to view this as a mission hostile toward them and then screened his movements until trapping him. We know what happened next and I think a big emphasis was put on Royce's blade and his garb in that prologue. 

Basically, the Others could be a small race, chilling and taking the odd sacrifice but they may have believed the NW was coming to them with hostility and perhaps a blade which killed the Others ancestors way back in the day so they are retaliating now. 

But due to their small numbers they use some kind of cold necromancy to raise the dead to even out the numbers and send against the NW because they possibly also fear the weapons that may kill their race may be in the NW possession.

[SevasTra82]

I don't think there are many at all to be honest...maybe 2 dozen?

[Macgregor of the North]

51 minutes ago, SevasTra82 said:

 

May be a good idea to revise that post before a forum moderator sees it and informs you it's breaking spoiler rules.

[SevasTra82]

6 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

May be a good idea to revise that post before a forum moderator sees it and informs you it's breaking spoiler rules.

  That's what I get for posting at 6:00am.

All fixed!  Might want to also fix your quote of my post.

[Macgregor of the North]

16 minutes ago, SevasTra82 said:

  That's what I get for posting at 6:00am.

All fixed!  Might want to also fix your quote of my post.

Sorted now. 

[Kyll.Ing.]

There could also be a plentitude of peaceful Others living beyond the Frostfangs, and the ones we see are a breakaway minority that went rogue. How awesome wouldn't it be if they showed up at Castle Black with all their might, sections of the Wall tumbling... and then a bigger army of Other police comes right the heck out of nowhere, handcuffs the attackers, and drag the offenders away in chains. I can just imagine the Others police chief apologize to the Lord Commander. "Sorry for that, I know we have a deal and all. We stay north of the 'fangs, you stay south of the Wall, only low-key activity allowed in between. Tell your Free Folk they're free to move back to their houses when spring arrives, and we'll send some guys to fix the Wall. Anyway, we're off, I can't stand this dreadful heat for much longer. Good day, Lord Commander!"

[Ser Leftwich]

We have only seen 6, not 13. Waymar is preparing to fight one and when five others come out of the woods. There won't be all that many in total.

[Maester of Valyria]

1 hour ago, Kyll.Ing. said:

There could also be a plentitude of peaceful Others living beyond the Frostfangs, and the ones we see are a breakaway minority that went rogue. How awesome wouldn't it be if they showed up at Castle Black with all their might, sections of the Wall tumbling... and then a bigger army of Other police comes right the heck out of nowhere, handcuffs the attackers, and drag the offenders away in chains. I can just imagine the Others police chief apologize to the Lord Commander. "Sorry for that, I know we have a deal and all. We stay north of the 'fangs, you stay south of the Wall, only low-key activity allowed in between. Tell your Free Folk they're free to move back to their houses when spring arrives, and we'll send some guys to fix the Wall. Anyway, we're off, I can't stand this dreadful heat for much longer. Good day, Lord Commander!"

That would be amazing. I wouldn't even be disappointed; I'd be laughing so hard.

 

8 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

I'll take a wee stab at this. 

I think their numbers are relatively low. They seem to have been living their own life without causing issues to anyone really as long as they receive the odd sacrifice. Maybe there are, and have been throughout history, Craster like people who are(and have been) sacrificing sons to the Others for whichever purpose they see fit to use the babies for, be it creating a new member or something different. And it's not only human babies, they take animal sacrifices to so its a blood thing overall that has kept them 'happy'. 

What I think may have spooked them though and made them become more hostile is when Waymar Royce prowled further North than he perhaps should have , with his Lordly clothing looking for all the world to see like an actual Lord Commander, and a fancy Jewel hilted blade at his hip. 

I think the Others possibly begun to view this as a mission hostile toward them and then screened his movements until trapping him. We know what happened next and I think a big emphasis was put on Royce's blade and his garb in that prologue. 

Basically, the Others could be a small race, chilling and taking the odd sacrifice but they may have believed the NW was coming to them with hostility and perhaps a blade which killed the Others ancestors way back in the day so they are retaliating now. 

But due to their small numbers they use some kind of cold necromancy to raise the dead to even out the numbers and send against the NW because they possibly also fear the weapons that may kill their race may be in the NW possession.

Interesting idea, but IIRC the Night's Watch had been losing men on rangings for a while now? The vast majority of rangers wouldn't have been dressed or armed with the high-quality equipment that Royce was.

Besides, you'd think that the Others would be clever enough to realise that he was just a grunt. I mean, what Lord Commander would be that far north with only two bodyguards?

[aryagonnakill#2]

15 minutes ago, Maester of Valyria said:

That would be amazing. I wouldn't even be disappointed; I'd be laughing so hard.

 

Interesting idea, but IIRC the Night's Watch had been losing men on rangings for a while now? The vast majority of rangers wouldn't have been dressed or armed with the high-quality equipment that Royce was.

Besides, you'd think that the Others would be clever enough to realise that he was just a grunt. I mean, what Lord Commander would be that far north with only two bodyguards?

BR

[Maester of Valyria]

43 minutes ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

BR

Bloodraven? He disappeared while leading a ranging; we don't know how many men he was commanding at the time.

[Macgregor of the North]

11 hours ago, Maester of Valyria said:

That would be amazing. I wouldn't even be disappointed; I'd be laughing so hard.

 

Interesting idea, but IIRC the Night's Watch had been losing men on rangings for a while now? The vast majority of rangers wouldn't have been dressed or armed with the high-quality equipment that Royce was.

Besides, you'd think that the Others would be clever enough to realise that he was just a grunt. I mean, what Lord Commander would be that far north with only two bodyguards?

AGOT CAT I:

"He was the fourth this year," Ned said grimly. "The poor man was half-mad. Something had put a fear in him so deep that my words could not reach him." He sighed. "Ben writes that the strength of the Night's Watch is down below a thousand. It's not only desertions. They are losing men on rangings as well."

Ned does say it's the fourth deserter of that year, but he doesn't say it's the fourth ranging they have lost men, I think Ned is pointing out that desertions have been aplenty(maybe just because the watch is shit nowadays), the comment he makes about losing men on rangings as well could just as easily be because Benjen has told him that Royce and Will were lost who had ranged out with Gared. 

Will himself says he has ranged over a hundred times in his four years on the Wall and the haunted forest held no terrors for him(until that ranging, because they went to far and the Others begun to shadow their movements I believe). 

Your right, few men in the watch Range out dressed like Royce, and sitting a horse like Royce's, and behaving so commanding like Royce, armed with a fancy looking sword like Royce. 

Why for anybody to see, you would perhaps think the NW had a bold new LC and fancied a mission far North?

If you get time, look at the use of the word Sable cloak. It's pointed out a good deal I think. I think it's meant to show us high status etc and the wearer is made to appear commanding or lordly. 

I do firmly believe the Others got spooked by what they thought was the LC of the ancient NW. The same NW that was formed all these years ago around the time Others were killed with a weapon they couldn't stand against. 

I think the Others then had a plan to attack, and kill the NW from then on. 

Look at the Wight mission, who was targeted? The LC, and Ser Jaremy Rykker. 

The same high ranking commanding officer Rykker who lead rangings after Benjen  disappeared, the same Rykker who flaunted about with a lordly Sable cloak. Looking for all the world to see like a Lord Commander himself. 

The Others from the prologue have been looking to attack the Nights watch I think and with their Wight mission to wipe out two commanders, and sending their wights against the NW at the fist, I personally thinks that had become their clear intent.

I hear you on the grunt bit, and the Others are smart, but they weren't to know until they trapped Royce and forced him to play his hand(his fancy sword), that he was just a young green ranger.

[Maester of Valyria]

9 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

AGOT CAT I:

"He was the fourth this year," Ned said grimly. "The poor man was half-mad. Something had put a fear in him so deep that my words could not reach him." He sighed. "Ben writes that the strength of the Night's Watch is down below a thousand. It's not only desertions. They are losing men on rangings as well."

Ned does say it's the fourth deserter of that year, but he doesn't say it's the fourth ranging they have lost men, I think Ned is pointing out that desertions have been aplenty(maybe just because the watch is shit nowadays), the comment he makes about losing men on rangings as well could just as easily be because Benjen has told him that Royce and Will were lost who had ranged out with Gared. 

Will himself says he has ranged over a hundred times in his four years on the Wall and the haunted forest held no terrors for him(until that ranging, because they went to far and the Others begun to shadow their movements I believe). 

Your right, few men in the watch Range out dressed like Royce, and sitting a horse like Royce's, and behaving so commanding like Royce, armed with a fancy looking sword like Royce. 

Why for anybody to see, you would perhaps think the NW had a bold new LC and fancied a mission far North?

If you get time, look at the use of the word Sable cloak. It's pointed out a good deal I think. I think it's meant to show us high status etc and the wearer is made to appear commanding or lordly. 

I do firmly believe the Others got spooked by what they thought was the LC of the ancient NW. The same NW that was formed all these years ago around the time Others were killed with a weapon they couldn't stand against. 

I think the Others then had a plan to attack, and kill the NW from then on. 

Look at the Wight mission, who was targeted? The LC, and Ser Jaremy Rykker. 

The same high ranking commanding officer Rykker who lead rangings after Benjen  disappeared, the same Rykker who flaunted about with a lordly Sable cloak. Looking for all the world to see like a Lord Commander himself. 

The Others from the prologue have been looking to attack the Nights watch I think and with their Wight mission to wipe out two commanders, and sending their wights against the NW at the fist, I personally thinks that had become their clear intent.

I hear you on the grunt bit, and the Others are smart, but they weren't to know until they trapped Royce and forced him to play his hand(his fancy sword), that he was just a young green ranger.

I'm pretty sure that Mormont says at some point they've been losing men on rangings for a while now? Can't remember the exact line, but I did find these ones from Clash:

"Your rangers will limit their ranging to this side of the river until the Halfhand reaches us. After that, we'll see. I will not lose more of my men."

Too many rangers had been lost the past two years, even Benjen Stark, Jon's uncle.

All good points, but I'm afraid I still have a hard time buying that the Others wouldn't realise that Royce was just a grunt. As for the wight attack at Castle Black, that almost certainly was a mission to kill the Lord Commander. And while sable may be a symbol of power for the reader, why should it mean anything to the Others?

I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree until Winds comes out (I'm saying that more and more at the moment and it gets worse every time).

[Macgregor of the North]

On 25 May 2016 at 7:54 PM, Maester of Valyria said:

 

My replies have went weird

[Macgregor of the North]

15 hours ago, Maester of Valyria said:

I'm pretty sure that Mormont says at some point they've been losing men on rangings for a while now? Can't remember the exact line, but I did find these ones from Clash:

"Your rangers will limit their ranging to this side of the river until the Halfhand reaches us. After that, we'll see. I will not lose more of my men."

Too many rangers had been lost the past two years, even Benjen Stark, Jon's uncle.

All good points, but I'm afraid I still have a hard time buying that the Others wouldn't realise that Royce was just a grunt. As for the wight attack at Castle Black, that almost certainly was a mission to kill the Lord Commander. And while sable may be a symbol of power for the reader, why should it mean anything to the Others?

I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree until Winds comes out (I'm saying that more and more at the moment and it gets worse every time).

The Wights seemed to go for high ranking commanding officers, here's Mormont:

"Yet when we took them back to Castle Black they rose in the night and killed. One slew Ser Jaremy Rykker and the other came for me".

The losing men on Rangings thing could well mean since the Royce thing with sweeps going out to find him, then sweeps going out to find the Rangers lost looking for him. 

And how can't you see from the prologue that the Others are wary of Royce and his blade and it's not only until the blade is proven to be simple steel that shatters, then they mock him and view him as nothing but a grunt and mercilessly kill him?. 

The cloak is maybe a nod to us the reader to see that it's a power symbol thing in the watch and the Others have been slaying high ranking members. This is a direct tactic against the NW. An effective one to, if you take out an enemies commanding officers, they are in total disarray. Smart thinking.

[Maester of Valyria]

5 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

The Wights seemed to go for high ranking commanding officers, here's Mormont:

"Yet when we took them back to Castle Black they rose in the night and killed. One slew Ser Jaremy Rykker and the other came for me".

The losing men on Rangings thing could well mean since the Royce thing with sweeps going out to find him, then sweeps going out to find the Rangers lost looking for him. 

And how can't you see from the prologue that the Others are wary of Royce and his blade and it's not only until the blade is proven to be simple steel that shatters, then they mock him and view him as nothing but a grunt and mercilessly kill him?. 

The cloak is maybe a nod to us the reader to see that it's a power symbol thing in the watch and the Others have been slaying high ranking members. This is a direct tactic against the NW. An effective one to, if you take out an enemies commanding officers, they are in total disarray. Smart thinking.

Yes, I know, but equally it could mean since long before Royce's disappearance.

While I know you can argue differently, I don't think the Other noticing Royce's sword necessarily points to them being wary of all blades; it could easily be that the Other was getting into the zone for fighting and focusing down on the object that could (potentially) do it harm. The laugh could easily be at how easy the victory was.

[Macgregor of the North]

28 minutes ago, Maester of Valyria said:

Yes, I know, but equally it could mean since long before Royce's disappearance.

While I know you can argue differently, I don't think the Other noticing Royce's sword necessarily points to them being wary of all blades; it could easily be that the Other was getting into the zone for fighting and focusing down on the object that could (potentially) do it harm. The laugh could easily be at how easy the victory was.

I don't mean all blades either and hadn't said that. I have been meaning that the Others have been shadowing Royce and are wary that he is the LC of the NW and his blade may be the same kind of weapon that killed the Others way back thousands of years ago.

The Others are not afraid of all blades, but they clearly think Royce is more than he seems and are analysing him, and his blade, and it's not until they are sure his weapon is mere normal steel that they grow in confidence and finish him while mocking. 

I personally thought that was rather obvious.

I do agree in the other topic that it could mean before Royce that the men were lost however.

[House Cambodia]

it's a possible interpretation, but equally it could be that with each encounter with NW, the WWs got bolder.