How Aegon could have made an Empire instead of just a kingdom

[Abdallah]

So I always wondered why the Targaryens were so weak without their dragons. their lands might build their own host of 20K but with few knights etc. The biggest problem was they did not build the structure of an empire, only that of a decentralized kingdom. However there are a few ways the Targaryens could have made an empire. The main difference between an empire and a kingdom is an empire is more centralized and usually has an army loyal directly to the emperor. 

 

Step 1: create the capital at Harenhall (perhaps not go all apeshit on it and try not to melt all of it).

Harrenhall is the perfect place to create a large city and rule Westeros. It's in a center area . Kingslanding and HarrenHall would grant the Targaryens more money and troops. Having the Capital in the center would centralize things. 

Step 2: keep some lands of traitors. 

This isn't something Aegon could do, but his successors afterwards could. There have been numerous times of revolts against the Targaryens. They would then give some lands to people who were loyal, like after the BlackFrye rebellions. One thing the Targs could do is keep some of the lands seized, just not all of it. To appease the lords paramount, the taxes that would normally be paid to the king from the properties would go to the LP, where as the revenue that would have gone to a local lord would instead go to the crown. A Castellan might control it but he would be paid a salary.

Step 3. Create a Mamluk/Janissary/Sofa(Mali warriors)/BlackGuard force. One way that emperors and sultans managed to keep power was to have a host of warriors loyal to him. Young boys from foreign areas were gathered, usually by the slave trade, though the Janissaries were gathered from the balkans to lower the hostile population while providing loyal troops. These young boys would be trained in a military fashion. A legion, 6K should be enough. 800 silver stags each a year, or 24K gold dragons in total would be enough for the wages. Owning multiple properties including HarrenHall, KingsLanding and Dragonstone may produce enough to cover it. To get these boys the Targs can probably just recruit orphans, and parents of unwanted children can simply give their kids into this system. Using this new group as a secret service as well as a royal guard, kind of like the Oprichniki, except under tighter control. Having them dress in black might intimidate lesser lords and having them trained in horse archery might provide them an edge against knights. 

Step 4: Create an order of knights. Now I know what your thinking, they have the kingsguard. heres the problem, the kings guard are 7 guys. I was thinking if the Targaryens could get the Faith to allow the Targs to create a knightly order loyal to the king that would be the successor of the Warrior's sons. These Kings of the Order of the Dragon would only require that a man provide his own Horse and maybe armor. Many hedge knights and free riders would join as well as knights with property to donate to the order. 

Step 5: Create a bank. Instead of letting Bravos have a monopoly on banking, creating a unified bank would grant the Targaryens more revenue and power. It might also please lords who need money if the Targs helped them. The revenue might help to pay for steps 3 & 4. Now to get the early money to start up the bank, why not sell a few dragon eggs that didn't hatch? selling like 5 dragon eggs (that didn't hatch despite multiple attempts) would give the Targs a fortune enough to pay for a big bank. 

I would also have the warriors from steps 3 & 4 swear direct loyalty to the king AND his chosen successor. This is basically a safety guard for a Dance of Dragons scenario. One of the most ironic things about Dragonstone is the prince or princess does not have the host to protect their claim. We've seen this twice, in a Dance with Dragons the blacks only have more dragons. You also need the men as well. We also see this with Stannis. He managed to get 5K men. now imagine if he had 11-15K in the beginning, with 10K being professional horsemen (though I suppose it would be different with the baratheons, if they would even rule). I do think with the Dragonknights and the mamluks in addition to the 4 K knights gathered from other areas that Rhaegar would have won the Battle of the Trident. I mean he would still probably only bring 40 K but 14K would be horsemen vs only 4K at the actual battle. 

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I think one of the reasons Aegon didn't choose Harrenhal was because he wanted to start something new. Also, I suppose a port city is better suited to be a capital.

I think #2 did kinda happen after the BR.

#3 and #4 were suggested in the books, imo. He should have gotten his own army. I mean, the KG was ok for the first days, but later, he needed a military power.

[The Golden Wolf]

one of the things that got to me was the fact that Robert did not have no sizable fighting force of his own upon which he could call. Cersie had plenty of loyal forces within kingslanding but Robert only truly had the Kingsguard, one of whom was going by the moniker of "Kingslayer". Robert could have done 3 and 4 if only to ensure that he had loyal forces he could always rely upon. Afterall he did just topple a 300 year old dynasty that still has loyal followers and not long after taking the throne had to put down a rebellion. 

Kingsguard are great for a personal bodyguard but if you need an army you don't want to have to always rely upon other lords to send you troops.

[SeanF]

I don't think that Aegon had any imperial model to follow, when he conquered Westeros.  The continent has always been ruled by feudal Kings.  Over the sea, there are numerous city states, which are oligarchies, rather than monarchies or empires.  Even Valyria was an aristocratic Republic.  So, it's natural that Aegon kept existing political structures in place, as far as he could.

He probably could have created a several thousand strong Praetorian Guard, but monarchs have faced just as many difficulties with such forces as they have with feudal lords.

[StarkofWinterfell]

Aegon's goal was to integrate rather than revolutionize in order to secure his rule.

He didn't want his subjects to resist any changes.

[Abdallah]

1 hour ago, SeanF said:

I don't think that Aegon had any imperial model to follow, when he conquered Westeros.  The continent has always been ruled by feudal Kings.  Over the sea, there are numerous city states, which are oligarchies, rather than monarchies or empires.  Even Valyria was an aristocratic Republic.  So, it's natural that Aegon kept existing political structures in place, as far as he could.

He probably could have created a several thousand strong Praetorian Guard, but monarchs have faced just as many difficulties with such forces as they have with feudal lords.

Thats why I suggested making them like Mamluks. For the most part the Mamluks were a loyal bunch because they had no local ties. 

[SeanF]

3 minutes ago, Abdallah said:

Thats why I suggested making them like Mamluks. For the most part the Mamluks were a loyal bunch because they had no local ties. 

They eventually turned against the Ayubite rulers of Egypt, in the 13th century.

[Abdallah]

5 hours ago, JCRB's Honeypot said:

I think one of the reasons Aegon didn't choose Harrenhal was because he wanted to start something new. Also, I suppose a port city is better suited to be a capital.

I think #2 did kinda happen after the BR.

#3 and #4 were suggested in the books, imo. He should have gotten his own army. I mean, the KG was ok for the first days, but later, he needed a military power.

Yeah and 3&4 could be used to help the Nights Watch if they need it, also to help Lords Paramount if they need it. For instance they could help Barthogan Stark fight the skagosi. That might help win over Northmen. 

[Abdallah]

1 minute ago, SeanF said:

They eventually turned against the Ayubite rulers of Egypt, in the 13th century.

It's a bit more complicated. You see the Ayyubid Sultan, As-Salih, they served died on the way to a battle with the french. The Bahris and other regiments were loyal, infact on the way back to cairo they would kill the late sultan's relative, a long time enemy of his. When they got to the city they went to Salih's grave and were like knocking on his crypt to proudly tell him that they killed his rival. They tried to be loyal to his son Turanshah but his son kept pushing them. They were also loyal to Salih's widow Shajar and Turanshah threatened her. So they killed him and placed Shajar on the throne. She married Aybak, himself a mamluk but not of the Bahri regiment. Aybak goes insane and kills Atkei who was the leader of mamluks loyal to Salih. Most flee and Shajar gets mad because they were loyal to her. So she murders Aybak. Aybak's concubines her beaten to death with cogs and throw her body out a tower ( you can't make this shit up). So then Qutuz, another mamluk takes over. The Mongols come and destroy Ayyubid power in Syria, Qutuz makes peace with the remaining Barhis such as Baybar and Qalawun. they team up and beat the mongols at ain jalut, then the Bahri emirs go all nights watch on Qutuz, I assume they were saying "For Atkei", with the last one saying "Baybars sends his regards", killing Qutuz and thats how the mamluks grew to control Egypt. 

[WSmith84]

Isn't Westeros a bit too technologically and bureaucratically underdeveloped for the formation of some kind of standing army? I could see a Targaryen king forming a loyal force of a few hundred, something akin to the Raven's Teeth perhaps, but beyond that it would seem too expensive. And, of course, the Great Lords aren't going to like this new military power that can threaten them and they certainly won't like paying for it.

[aryagonnakill#2]

I don't think they needed a standing army, a standing fleet is more important.  What they needed was to not be in direct control of the weakest region(crownlands) but rather the strongest region.  Combining the Stormlands, Crownlands, Reach, and Riverlands was entirely doable by Aegon and would make the Targ ruling from the Red Keep the strongest lord in his own right. 

The Targs should also have taken the Golden Tooth from the Lannisters when they originally took over, they had the Lannister King and he openly fought them so they would have been able to say you remain Lord of Casterly Rock and Westerlands etc etc but loose Golden Tooth for taking up arms against us.

[Abdallah]

31 minutes ago, WSmith84 said:

Isn't Westeros a bit too technologically and bureaucratically underdeveloped for the formation of some kind of standing army? I could see a Targaryen king forming a loyal force of a few hundred, something akin to the Raven's Teeth perhaps, but beyond that it would seem too expensive. And, of course, the Great Lords aren't going to like this new military power that can threaten them and they certainly won't like paying for it.

They should make this force while they had dragons. By the time they lose the dragons everyone would be used to it. 6K isn't that much. All together the Crown would have 26-30K men with steps 3&4 and the normal amounts from the Crownlands and narrow sea 

[Abdallah]

4 minutes ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

I don't think they needed a standing army, a standing fleet is more important.  What they needed was to not be in direct control of the weakest region(crownlands) but rather the strongest region.  Combining the Stormlands, Crownlands, Reach, and Riverlands was entirely doable by Aegon and would make the Targ ruling from the Red Keep the strongest lord in his own right. 

The Targs should also have taken the Golden Tooth from the Lannisters when they originally took over, they had the Lannister King and he openly fought them so they would have been able to say you remain Lord of Casterly Rock and Westerlands etc etc but loose Golden Tooth for taking up arms against us.

Thats too much land directly to rule but 6K isn't a standing army, more just a legion. But making Crownlands bigger would have been wiser

[CJ McLannister]

Were the Crownlands really that weak initially?  I know there aren't many castles there, but it seems like lots of farmable land with sea and river access.  

Maybe the dragons were the problem.  Aegon assumed that his heirs would always have the nuclear option, so he didn't fear a time when any subjects would dare stand against them.

[Abdallah]

4 minutes ago, CJ McLannister said:

Were the Crownlands really that weak initially?  I know there aren't many castles there, but it seems like lots of farmable land with sea and river access.  

Maybe the dragons were the problem.  Aegon assumed that his heirs would always have the nuclear option, so he didn't fear a time when any subjects would dare stand against them.

Crownlands with the Narrow sea could foster some 20K. The smallest army in Westeros.