Dawn

[Lurid Jester]

On June 27, 2016 at 3:47 AM, GeorgeIAF said:

Bump, i forgot to say that i think Jon will wield it in the end !

I think the significance of Dawn is just that it was the bloody star that Jon was born under.  Its purpose, as Chekhov's sword, was to fulfill that part of the prophecy.

Personally I believe that whatever sword Jon uses will end up being "Lightbringer", even if it's Longclaw.  

Remember that there was another person who was brought back from the dead, and they were able to ignite their sword simply by coating the blade with their own blood.  

[Lurid Jester]

On June 28, 2016 at 2:37 PM, Cas Stark said:

Maybe the Daynes will show up after all.  Maybe the woman we didn't see is a Dayne, and the Sword(s) of the Morning other sword, Dawn, will have a role to play, although you can never quite tell w/the show whats pure randomness v. what is their idea of foreshadowing....

I actually think the woman with the braid over her shoulder is Ashara Dayne. 

She was friends with Elia Martell, and likely also friends with Rhaegar.  That friendship, combined with the fact that Arthur Dayne is her brother, could explain her presence at the ToJ. Perhaps she's there to help Lyanna.  

Wylla is likely the woman we did see. She worked for the Daynes and was possibly there to care for Lyanna at the request of either Arthur or Ashara. 

So when Ned walks into the room, he only really sees his sister. Perhaps Ashara ran by him to go see to her brother, leaving Wylla to hand Jon to Ned. 

Perhaps the death of her brother causes her to have a nervous breakdown. Ned can't very well leave her in such a state so he and Howland Reed escort her home.  Maybe they were able to reconcile on the trip since Ned and Ashara possibly had a budding relationship prior to the war.  

Meanwhile Wylla cares for Jon and the others fabricate a story to explain him.  Ashara has been through enough so Ned doesn't want her reputation hurt in any way and they go with the story that Wylla is Jon's mom.  

Afterwards Ned heads back to Winterfell with Jon as his son. He says only enough to get by, and refuses to allow anyone tonsuggest that Ashara is the mother.  Like I said, she'd been through enough and there was no reason for these events to damage her reputation in any way.  

 

Or maybe not.  There are still gaps in this theory that I haven't been able to flesh out yet. 

[Drago]

18 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

If that were the case, why does the show make a point of Robert's wanting to kill every Targaryen "for what they did to" Lyanna? Or why is Ned warning Cersei that she and her children must get as far as they can or Robert's wrath will follow them?

As Jaime's bastards, they are little threat to Robert's reign, but Ned still warns her to run fast and far. But, on the show, Ned specifically says he will not have Cersei's children's blood on his hands and thus he will help them escape Robert. 

Very true. But Robert does not hate Targaryens for threatening that reign. His hatred started when they took Lyanna. The woman he loved. And raped and murdered her. That's the source of his unending wrath and misery. Neither books nor show are subtle on that point.

All fair. 

Like I said, Difference of opinion.

[Sly Wren]

7 hours ago, Drago said:

Like I said, Difference of opinion.

All fair. 

[St Daga]

On Monday, June 27, 2016 at 11:00 AM, OceanRunner said:

Unless it was foreshadow that the long night wont be as long and that dawn/good/light/anti-other will win in the end. 

Maybe thats why they dumbed down the design of Dawn because the sword itself has not significance however, the meaning of the symbol, the rising sun on the pommel does....

I think Dawn at the end of Lyanna's birthing bed foreshadows that this baby will bring The Dawn that ends The Long Night!

On Monday, June 27, 2016 at 11:20 AM, YOVMO said:

 I won't venture a guess about the show, but I think in the books it is more likely that Arthur Dayne is still alive and hiding out in Blackhaven with his sister (Lord Beric's fiancé) and has been since howland reed brokered a peace based on jon at the tower of joy.

I think the TOJ reveal will come when Edric takes Beric back to Blackhaven to be buried and meets, is trained by, knighted by and named sword of the morning by Arthur Dayne who, before dying, tells him the truth of the tower of joy.

Further, I believe that longclaw is actually blackfyre and was stashed at the wall by Bloodraven when he was LC of the Nights watch.

 

 

As far as the show goes, Bran plainly saw Arthur Dayne killed. Unless he lived through two fatal injuries. Unless he was resurrected, like Jon, which seems unlikely.

As for Blackfyre, it is thought to be in Essos. Dark Sister was Bloodravens and he had it at the Wall! Why would Mormont lie to Jon about Longclaw's origin?

On Tuesday, June 28, 2016 at 1:34 PM, tugela said:

Casting the younger Daynes will be necessary for a completely different reason. There is strong reason to believe that Daenerys is the daughter of Rhaegar and Ashara, and the writers would need some mechanic to introduce those ideas into the TV show. In the book that was done by Ser Barristan, but he is dead and so cannot do it on the show. They would need a different mechanism. Using the current generation of Daynes would allow them to do it.

We do know that Ned goes to Starfall after ToJ, and while he is there Ashara disappears under mysterious circumstances after recently giving birth to a daughter. We know that Daenerys is so similar to Ashara that she could easily be taken for her daughter. We also know that the Daynes are on very friendly terms with Ned, even though he killed their heir and (apparently) was responsible for Ashara killing herself. So there is something else going on there, and it has nothing to do with Jon. While these things are made clear in the book, it has not happened on the show, so they would need a different mechanism to do it.

Dany is said to be much like Ashara, but that doesn't mean Dany isn't the daughter of Aerys and Rhaella. And even if Dany isn't who we think, and Ashara is her mother, I don’t think it's obvious that Rhaegar is the father. It could easily be Aerys, who raped his own wife to impregnate her, or possibly a Stark, either Brandon or even a young Benjen.

There is more to the story involving the Daynes, and it seems like the show will get into some of it. The great details and twists will be in the books.

[xjlxking]

I apologize if someone already said this but I haven't gotten around to reading all the comments yet

 

there may be a good reason why there was a close up of dawn. Azor Ahai was suppose to be born when the star was bleeding, under a red star. 

The sword was stain with blood of Arthur. The sword is made of a meteorite.

 

[rivers snow]

Just playing along, how could Dany be Ashara's daughter? She was famously born during a storm on Dragonstone with her mother dying in childbirth. 

Is the suggestion there was a baby swap? How would a dayne baby get to Dragonstone to get swapped in the first place?

[purple-eyes]

On July 1, 2016 at 3:10 PM, Lurid Jester said:

I actually think the woman with the braid over her shoulder is Ashara Dayne. 

She was friends with Elia Martell, and likely also friends with Rhaegar.  That friendship, combined with the fact that Arthur Dayne is her brother, could explain her presence at the ToJ. Perhaps she's there to help Lyanna.  

Wylla is likely the woman we did see. She worked for the Daynes and was possibly there to care for Lyanna at the request of either Arthur or Ashara. 

So when Ned walks into the room, he only really sees his sister. Perhaps Ashara ran by him to go see to her brother, leaving Wylla to hand Jon to Ned. 

Perhaps the death of her brother causes her to have a nervous breakdown. Ned can't very well leave her in such a state so he and Howland Reed escort her home.  Maybe they were able to reconcile on the trip since Ned and Ashara possibly had a budding relationship prior to the war.  

Meanwhile Wylla cares for Jon and the others fabricate a story to explain him.  Ashara has been through enough so Ned doesn't want her reputation hurt in any way and they go with the story that Wylla is Jon's mom.  

Afterwards Ned heads back to Winterfell with Jon as his son. He says only enough to get by, and refuses to allow anyone tonsuggest that Ashara is the mother.  Like I said, she'd been through enough and there was no reason for these events to damage her reputation in any way.  

 

Or maybe not.  There are still gaps in this theory that I haven't been able to flesh out yet. 

dude, you forgot one thing. ned just killed ashara's brother one minute before he entered the tower. what made you think ashara would be cool with him about Arthur? 

and ashara also gave birth to a still born baby around this time and when ned visited starfall, she was there and soon she jumped from pale sword tower of Starfall. 

it is impossible thay Ashara was there with Lyanna. By the way, if she was friend of Elia as you assumed, why would she help Lyanna, the one who eloped with her friend's husband and led the bloody deaths of Elia and her two young children and also her big brother? 

not everybody loves lyanna and ready to help or die for her, at least not Ashara. 

 

[purple-eyes]

36 minutes ago, rivers snow said:

Just playing along, how could Dany be Ashara's daughter? She was famously born during a storm on Dragonstone with her mother dying in childbirth. 

Is the suggestion there was a baby swap? How would a dayne baby get to Dragonstone to get swapped in the first place?

no need to make Arthur as that, jon snow was already born literally under a bleeding star(k). 

[Lurid Jester]

7 hours ago, purple-eyes said:

dude, you forgot one thing. ned just killed ashara's brother one minute before he entered the tower. what made you think ashara would be cool with him about Arthur? 

and ashara also gave birth to a still born baby around this time and when ned visited starfall, she was there and soon she jumped from pale sword tower of Starfall. 

it is impossible thay Ashara was there with Lyanna. By the way, if she was friend of Elia as you assumed, why would she help Lyanna, the one who eloped with her friend's husband and led the bloody deaths of Elia and her two young children and also her big brother? 

not everybody loves lyanna and ready to help or die for her, at least not Ashara. 

 

Lol, yeah.  Minor flaw that I haven't been able to reconcile yet.  I'm thinking that the runs out when Ned arrives and maybe Howland spends some time with her to calm her down.  

I don't know.   It's a work in progress.

As for why she would be ok with the whole Rhaegar/Ellia/Lyanna thing maybe Rhaegar convinced them to join his little conspiracy.  She's also from Dorn and apparently they are more relaxed about such things.   She might also not be there for Lyanna.  Maybe she's only there for Rhaegar and his baby.  Perhaps he did abduct her against her will and it was al very Rosemary's Baby.

The biggest flaw though, at least within the framework of the tv show, is that Ashara has never been mentioned.  I just can't think of who else it might be.  She seemed to be intentionally hidden from view, which implies some significance to the story.  

Heh, maybe it's Melisandra.

[purple-eyes]

18 minutes ago, Lurid Jester said:

Lol, yeah.  Minor flaw that I haven't been able to reconcile yet.  I'm thinking that the runs out when Ned arrives and maybe Howland spends some time with her to calm her down.  

I don't know.   It's a work in progress.

As for why she would be ok with the whole Rhaegar/Ellia/Lyanna thing maybe Rhaegar convinced them to join his little conspiracy.  She's also from Dorn and apparently they are more relaxed about such things.   She might also not be there for Lyanna.  Maybe she's only there for Rhaegar and his baby.  Perhaps he did abduct her against her will and it was al very Rosemary's Baby.

The biggest flaw though, at least within the framework of the tv show, is that Ashara has never been mentioned.  I just can't think of who else it might be.  She seemed to be intentionally hidden from view, which implies some significance to the story.  

Heh, maybe it's Melisandra.

howland is the one who stabbed her brother and ned is one who finished arthur. i failed to see either of them can comfort Ashara. 

by the way how do you explain ned went to starfall after TOJ and met ashara there and she jumped from the starfall tower soon after? 

[Lurid Jester]

9 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

howland is the one who stabbed her brother and ned is one who finished arthur. i failed to see either of them can comfort Ashara. 

by the way how do you explain ned went to starfall after TOJ and met ashara there and she jumped from the starfall tower soon after? 

I'm trying to fit the hints revealed in Got into book theories.  Sometimes it works, other times it's like giving a four year old all the ingredients for pancakes, without any instructions or supervision.  

Ned going to Starfall could just be the story they used to conceal Ashara's presence at the tower.  Could be that she was so distraught that she would be incapable of traveling alone.  No way would Ned leave her.  

then again, it could be that the only reason Ashar Dayne was ever mentioned in the books was to play the role of red herring.  Fake moms to muddy the water.  

[purple-eyes]

1 minute ago, Lurid Jester said:

I'm trying to fit the hints revealed in Got into book theories.  Sometimes it works, other times it's like giving a four year old all the ingredients for pancakes, without any instructions or supervision.  

Ned going to Starfall could just be the story they used to conceal Ashara's presence at the tower.  Could be that she was so distraught that she would be incapable of traveling alone.  No way would Ned leave her.  

then again, it could be that the only reason Ashar Dayne was ever mentioned in the books was to play the role of red herring.  Fake moms to muddy the water.  

of course she is a red herring. a better cover for jon snow's mother than wylla. 

[purple-eyes]

1 minute ago, Lurid Jester said:

I'm trying to fit the hints revealed in Got into book theories.  Sometimes it works, other times it's like giving a four year old all the ingredients for pancakes, without any instructions or supervision.  

Ned going to Starfall could just be the story they used to conceal Ashara's presence at the tower.  Could be that she was so distraught that she would be incapable of traveling alone.  No way would Ned leave her.  

then again, it could be that the only reason Ashar Dayne was ever mentioned in the books was to play the role of red herring.  Fake moms to muddy the water.  

of course she is a red herring. a better cover for jon snow's mother than wylla. 

[Lurid Jester]

2 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

of course she is a red herring. a better cover for jon snow's mother than wylla. 

You're probably right, but half the fun of this series is coming up with all the "Hey, maybe.."s. 

That still begs the question though. 

Who is the girl with the braid?

i latched onto Ashara as a possibility because of connections to other characters such as Arthur (confirmed at ToJ) and Wylla (long suspected, now confirmed(?)).  I'm rereading the books again, but no one comes to mind. 

[LordImp]

Dawn is original ice of House Stark , the Daynes have just guarded it since the long night. 

[purple-eyes]

16 minutes ago, Lurid Jester said:

You're probably right, but half the fun of this series is coming up with all the "Hey, maybe.."s. 

That still begs the question though. 

Who is the girl with the braid?

i latched onto Ashara as a possibility because of connections to other characters such as Arthur (confirmed at ToJ) and Wylla (long suspected, now confirmed(?)).  I'm rereading the books again, but no one comes to mind. 

for me it is just an unnamed servant. 

after all there were rhaegar lyanna and three KG. maybe too much work for only one servant. 

if she has to be someone, i would rather think she is jynna, mother of meera and jojen. 

[Lurid Jester]

15 minutes ago, LordImp said:

Dawn is original ice of House Stark , the Daynes have just guarded it since the long night. 

That's... Interesting.  I wasn't aware that the Ice introduced in book 1 wasn't the original Ice.  

[LordImp]

16 minutes ago, Lurid Jester said:

That's... Interesting.  I wasn't aware that the Ice introduced in book 1 wasn't the original Ice.  

According to Cat the original ice disappeared once in the past. Theres some good and interesting theories about Dawn being the ancient ice . 

[Kytheros]

44 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

for me it is just an unnamed servant. 

after all there were rhaegar lyanna and three KG. maybe too much work for only one servant. 

if she has to be someone, i would rather think she is jynna, mother of meera and jojen. 

Lady Jynna Reed would have been in the Neck, at Greywater Watch. IIRC, Meera, Jon, and Robb are all about the same age, born relatively closely to one another, meaning conceived not very long apart; Meera's probably the oldest, since Howland likely would've joined up with Ned before Ned got married to Catelyn.

 

40 minutes ago, Lurid Jester said:

That's... Interesting.  I wasn't aware that the Ice introduced in book 1 wasn't the original Ice.  

The Valyrian Steel Ice that Ned bore is a few hundred years old. It's a replacement for an older weapon, and likely merely one of many blades bearing the name over the millenia.