shmewdog

What's the basis for Cersei's claim to the Iron Throne?

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Cersei's coronation at the end of episode 10 doesn't make a lot of sense to me.  With Tommen's death, the matter of who should ascend the throne becomes rather complicated.  Since no one seems to know about Gendry,  and since Dany's only claim would be through conquest, I assume that the next claimant would have to be descended from a Targaryen daughter.  Robert justified his claim not just on conquest, but also from his grandmother's Targaryen blood.  Are there any living characters who have Targaryen lineage through the female line?  I checked through the lineages listed in the back of the World of Ice and Fire, but nothing sprung out at me.

I read an article online that argued that if Tommen were to die, the next claimant would have been Tywin Lannister, as he is supposedly descended from a Lannister-Targaryen marriage somewhere in his ancestry.  Since it was a clickbait article I take it with a grain of salt to say the least.  But assuming it is true, then with Tywin dead, Jaime sworn to not hold lands and Tyrion attainted, the next ruler would indeed be Cersei.  Not that her reign will likely last long, she has the backing of literally no one of the other regions and she's got Dany, Unsullied, Dothraki allied with Ironborn, Martells and Tyrells coming for her. 

Anybody able/willing to shed some light on this? 

 

 

 

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Her basis is basically conquest. She took the throne because why not. Who's there to stop her at the moment? She's got nothing else to care for or lose. It's not a coincidence that the scene immediately before that was Jon's coronation. It was a simple juxtaposition. Jon was crowned by his men, Cersei crowned herself. That crowd in the throne room certainly didn't look very cheerful. There is absolutely no way she survives past S7, which means she will be Queen for like a few months at best. I expect we will see Daenerys rally the people of KL against her, or at least increase their already existing dislike for Cersei. It's possible that Dany won't even have to lay siege to KL and will just be allowed inside by the people, causing Cersei to burn the city will Dany's army is inside. 

But also she has some legitimacy seeing as how she is Tommen's mother and he has no children nor a pregnant wife. Joffrey had no children either and Stannis and Shireen are dead. So the Baratheon line is over, and she was the mother of the previous two kings and the wife of the king before those two, being married to a Baratheon. I never figured out why Catelyn, for example, is a Stark but Cersei was still a Lannister.

Edited by Lautrec

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Conquest. 

As for that theory, Tommen fired Jaime from the kingsguard so he would be the true heir, but I guess Cersei gives no fucks. 

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5 minutes ago, Lautrec said:

Her basis is basically conquest. She took the throne because why not. Who's there to stop her at the moment? She's got nothing else to care for or lose. It's not a coincidence that the scene immediately before that was Jon's coronation. It was a simple juxtaposition. Jon was crowned by his men, Cersei crowned herself. That crowd in the throne room certainly didn't look very cheerful. There is absolutely no way she survives past S7, which means she will be Queen for like a few months at best. I expect we will see Daenerys rally the people of KL against her, or at least increase their already existing dislike for Cersei. It's possible that Dany won't even have to lay siege to KL and will just be allowed inside by the people, causing Cersei to burn the city will Dany's army is inside. 

But also she has some legitimacy seeing as how she is Tommen's mother and he has no children nor a pregnant wife. Joffrey had no children either and Stannis and Shireen are dead. So the Baratheon line is over, and she was the mother of the previous two kings and the wife of the king before those two, being married to a Baratheon. I never figured out why Catelyn, for example, is a Stark but Cersei was still a Lannister.

Catelyn embraced her marriage and her new family, as Cersei never did.  However, Catelyn never was part of the succession.  

As far as Tywin having Targaryen descent to the OP, I have never seen anything regarding that, and can't verify it based on the family trees in the wiki.  AFAIK, the legal queen at this point should be Daenerys, given there are no (known) male Targaryen's in front of her any more, and Robert was made king because of his Targaryen blood, continuing the Dynasty.  

Succession also doesn't work upwards from legitimacy (in other words, Cersei and Olenna have no claim on Baratheon/Tyrell holdings through lineage). 

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5 minutes ago, Lautrec said:

I never figured out why Catelyn, for example, is a Stark but Cersei was still a Lannister.

Martin mentioned in an SSM that queens don't take the last names of their husbands. Seems like a tradition in Westeros.

My problem with Cersei declaring herself queen through in the show is that there should be, well, severe consequences. The Stormlands and Crownlands should be in open rebellion or a power struggle since they have no legitimate ruler anymore. King's Landing should be in chaos. The royal family and 90% of the court have been killed, along with the head of a continent wide religion. The non-reaction to Cersei's coronation is frankly absurd.

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2 minutes ago, Balerion06 said:

Martin mentioned in an SSM that queens don't take the last names of their husbands. Seems like a tradition in Westeros.

My problem with Cersei declaring herself queen through in the show is that there should be, well, severe consequences. The Stormlands and Crownlands should be in open rebellion or a power struggle since they have no legitimate ruler anymore. King's Landing should be in chaos. The royal family and 90% of the court have been killed, along with the head of a continent wide religion. The non-reaction to Cersei's coronation is frankly absurd.

The CURRENT non-reaction is possibly the most important thing to take away though, I suspect there will be plenty next season that ultimately contributes to her downfall and inability to fed off Jon or Dany. It seemed a rushed affair whilst KL is reeling from the explosion still (building was still smoking).

Edited by Vernon Roche

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3 minutes ago, Vernon Roche said:

The CURRENT non-reaction is possibly the most important thing to take away though, I suspect there will be plenty next season that ultimately contributes to her downfall and inability to fed off Jon or Dany. It seemed a rushed affair whilst KL is reeling from the explosion still (building was still smoking).

I'd expect consequences. But these are the same writers who had Ellaria Sand take over Dorne effortlessly

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Just now, Balerion06 said:

I'd expect consequences. But these are the same writers who had Ellaria Sand take over Dorne effortlessly

Sure, but they care a damn sight more about Cersei as a character and have kept her prominent so I expect more effort.

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Well none of this is likely to happen in the book, they just want Cersei to be the antagonist for Dany since there isn't any Aegon/Arianne so they gave her the Evil Wardrobe Change and propped her on the throne.

And I suppose her claim (if she has some Targ blood) is probably not much worse than anyone else's.  So she might as well sit on the throne and say "come and get it" to anyone else who thinks they have a claim.

What's far less likely is Olenna not marching the Tyrell army straight into the Red Keep and mounting Cersei's head on a spike.  I honestly have no idea what she was doing in Dorne.  Its simply impossible to believe Cersei can weild any real power at this point even amongst the Westerlands.  She very unsubtly murdered her uncle Kevan and the westerosi pope and her son the king suddenly fell out a window.  You got to figure morale amongst the overstretched Lannister forces would have been at an all time low even before they realized Cersei was wearing her Evil Wardrobe.

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10 minutes ago, Vernon Roche said:

Sure, but they care a damn sight more about Cersei as a character and have kept her prominent so I expect more effort.

Ok, but these writers also just allowed a bastard who had no claim become king in the north. They're also the ones who kept propping up Renly as the best candidate for the throne because "conquest!"

I wouldn't bet money that they really think through the implications of usurping a crown much.

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Conquest? This is not gonna fly.

Conquest means an army or conquer defeating the previous sovereignty and taking that over. Cersei's done none of that. In order to claim conquest, Cersei has to 1) have an army; 2) use that army; 3) have current institutions, like the lords, submit to her due to her use of force.

In ASOIAF world and real life monarchies all around the world, should the ruling house leave no successor by blood, the ruling institutions would look for the house distant male relatives, from the maternal sides even. Furthermore, since Robert used his Targaryen blood claim, his line dying off would revert the throne back to the Targaryen.

All Cersei could do, logically of course, is to be the regent for the time being until the council, in this case they would institute a general council from the Great Houses, to find the suitable candidate. However, this is also problematic because the Hand was Kevan Lannister, who is also the head of the Lannister house. Should he die, his position would probably go to Jamie, thus Jamie would become the regent.

In any case, everyone in Westros, from lords to peaseants would question Cersei's ascension and would be up in revolt. How KL didn't end in city-wide revolt and the City Guard, King's Guard not rebelling is beyond logic.

Edited by Kusanagi

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47 minutes ago, Balerion06 said:

Martin mentioned in an SSM that queens don't take the last names of their husbands. Seems like a tradition in Westeros.

My problem with Cersei declaring herself queen through in the show is that there should be, well, severe consequences. The Stormlands and Crownlands should be in open rebellion or a power struggle since they have no legitimate ruler anymore. King's Landing should be in chaos. The royal family and 90% of the court have been killed, along with the head of a continent wide religion. The non-reaction to Cersei's coronation is frankly absurd.

Thanks. Makes sense. It was Elia Martell, after all and not Targaryen.

As for those asking why there wasn't revolt. There obviously will be, but you know, the episode ended and they couldn't have spent more time on it. Like I've said, she's gonna be queen for like two months.

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Her basis is pure delusion. Sure you can sit the Iron Throne, but 5 of the seven Kingdom's have left the realm, the Riverlands are in revolt and The Storm lands don't even have a Lord. Not to mention by the look on Jamie's face he's got one foot out the door already himself.

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5 minutes ago, Lautrec said:

Thanks. Makes sense. It was Elia Martell, after all and not Targaryen.

As for those asking why there wasn't revolt. There obviously will be, but you know, the episode ended and they couldn't have spent more time on it. Like I've said, she's gonna be queen for like two months.

The problem is that even the institutions inside KL would not allow that to happen. They would either leave or not attend the coronation. Commoners would act disorderly and also leave KL. If the show shows us that, like she has the coronation in an cold empty hall, or if we see people fleeing KL, then that would be fine. Unfortunately that is not the case.

Edited by Kusanagi

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What institutions? Not like there's a Westerosi Supreme Court. The High Septon and all his confidants are dead, as is everyone from inside the city who would dare to oppose her. The Mountain and Qyburn are loyal to her, the Kingsguard swore an oath to protect the king and his family, she pays her guards and soldiers. That's enough for a coronation. Everyone who attended the coronation would have done so out of fear. For one scene to end the season that is more than enough, the rest we will get in S7.                                                                                                                  

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Saying we will see revolts in next season wouldn't fly too, for that's just accepting bad writing for no reason. The next season is a year away, and you need to setup the stroyline probably. Give us some hints, some foreshadowing, and that's how you maintain tension.

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3 minutes ago, Kusanagi said:

Saying we will see revolts in next season wouldn't fly too, for that's just accepting bad writing for no reason. The next season is a year away, and you need to setup the stroyline probably. Give us some hints, some foreshadowing, and that's how you maintain tension.

Now you're just complaining for no reason. How is that accepting bad writing? A season has to end somewhere, and this was a great moment for it to end. Why couldn't the setup be in S07E01? And how is Jaime's look at Cersei not foreshadowing?

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11 minutes ago, Lautrec said:

What institutions? Not like there's a Westerosi Supreme Court. The High Septon and all his confidants are dead, as is everyone from inside the city who would dare to oppose her. The Mountain and Qyburn are loyal to her, the Kingsguard swore an oath to protect the king and his family, she pays her guards and soldiers. That's enough for a coronation. Everyone who attended the coronation would have done so out of fear. For one scene to end the season that is more than enough, the rest we will get in S7.                                                                                                                  

Small Council, King's Guard, City Guard, all the lords and lordlings, the soldiery, religious orders, masteros are all institutions as they are part of the state apparatus. High Septon died does that mean the whole religious order is wiped out? Sparrows followers suddenly renounce their faith? Hell, since she didn't attend her trial, she would still be deemed guilty by Sparrow followers, or they would at least demand a proper trial. KL would up in revolt.

 You killing off the entire line of succession does not mean people around you will just forget the centuries of laws and traditions they have been following.

Edited by Kusanagi

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1 minute ago, Lautrec said:

ing for no reason. How is that accepting bad writing? A season has to end somewhere, and this was a great moment for it to end. Why couldn't the setup be in S07E01? And how is Jaime's look at Cersei not foreshadowing?

Jaime is one person. If you want to setup social chaos, you need to show the social mentality. Spend 5 minutes to hint that isn't a problem when they have spent equal amount of screen time with Bronn on his sexual conquest.

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