StoneColdJorahMormont

Shireens murder.

68 posts in this topic

Just wondering the mother was 100% for this happening believing it was the right thing to do and was at first convincing Stannis, then all of a sudden she did a 180... now i understand if she believed in it fully but seeing her daughter being tied up and the fire put doubts in her mind. But what got me is that while convincing Stannis, Shireen was already tied with the executioner holding the flame waiting I imagine for the go ahead. Nothing during her conversation with Stannis changed to make her start doubting ?

so basically Shireen was already tied and screaming please no, while the executioner was standing next to her with the flame in clear sight, while she tried to convince Stannis and looked like the whole thing wasn't phasing her at all and looked to have no care in the world.

Then all of a sudden she changed her mind with nothing anyone said or any action on Shireens or the executioners part to sway her that wouldnt have already had swayed her before.

Side Question, could any of you stood by and watched the child burn ? for me it's the hardest scene to watch in the whole show and the one where i'm screaming at those soldiers that look disgusted with whats happening to speak up or even attempt to set her free.

I would like to think i would make some sort of attempt to give her a chance to run...... i know i would definitely be saying something be it to Stannis or other men to get them to charge with me.

 

 

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You're in service to a man who is willing to burn his daughter to achieve his aims. Are you really going to openly defy him? It would be you on the stake being burned next. Everyone likes to think they'd be the hero, but in reality most people are going to stand and stare horrified at what happened and then quietly act once no one is looking, like half his army did and desert.

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4 hours ago, Lord Lannister said:

You're in service to a man who is willing to burn his daughter to achieve his aims. Are you really going to openly defy him? It would be you on the stake being burned next. Everyone likes to think they'd be the hero, but in reality most people are going to stand and stare horrified at what happened and then quietly act once no one is looking, like half his army did and desert.

I just wonder if half his army discussed the happenings afterwards and decided to flee together or one person, then another left then another which caused a chain reaction. Reason I asked is I thought maybe those same men the night before the burning of Sheeren would have had time to discuss what was going to be happening the following day and could have grouped together to stop it happening rather than grouping together once it was over.

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1 hour ago, Stannis is the man....nis said:

Selyse did the 180 so D&D can place all the blame of their favorite punching bag

Well it would seem so as there was no real reason in that moment for her to change her mind that wouldnt have occurred to her while she was convincing Stannis only seconds before... it was like she was under some sort of mind control that had just been released from in that second.

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1 hour ago, StoneColdJorahMormont said:

Well it would seem so as there was no real reason in that moment for her to change her mind that wouldnt have occurred to her while she was convincing Stannis only seconds before... it was like she was under some sort of mind control that had just been released from in that second.

I always figured it was more along the lines of Selysse is more hardcore zealot in her notions, though likely to bend from it when faced with dire consequences, whereas Stannis has the convictions to hold to his chosen course no matter the cost, even if he's not as likely to advocate something like this on his own.,

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4 hours ago, StoneColdJorahMormont said:

I just wonder if half his army discussed the happenings afterwards and decided to flee together or one person, then another left then another which caused a chain reaction. Reason I asked is I thought maybe those same men the night before the burning of Sheeren would have had time to discuss what was going to be happening the following day and could have grouped together to stop it happening rather than grouping together once it was over.

I imagine small groups talked about it and left in dribs and drabs and a trickle soon became a flood. My reaction on watching episode 10 was "Yeah I'd have deserted too."

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3 minutes ago, Lord Lannister said:

I always figured it was more along the lines of Selysse is more hardcore zealot in her notions, though likely to bend from it when faced with dire consequences, whereas Stannis has the convictions to hold to his chosen course no matter the cost, even if he's not as likely to advocate something like this on his own.,

See i would have bought this had the sight of her daughter being tied up and the man holding the flame swayed her, as in theory she believed in it but when it was becoming a reality her maternal instincts kicked in, but as show in that scene Shireen was tied to the post for about 5 minutes with the man ready at any second to burn her, while selysse was trying to convince Stannis who was showing doubt at this point. Then out of nowhere she did a 160... but nothing had happened from the point she told Stannis it's the right thing to the point she decided infact no it aint.

If anything Stannis showed what i believe would have been the real time in which someone would have doubts... being the moment he saw her being tied and the situation becoming a reality, it was such a strange and sudden switch from 100 percent Stannis don't pull out now were doing the right thing to all of a sudden no we must stop this.

 

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It is really impossible for any of us to comment on Selyse "should have felt" until we have seen our own screaming child being tied to a pyre. As twisted as the whole situation was, eventually it all became too real for Selyse and she realized it wasn't worth it. She probably had a million things acing through her mind, but eventually it all culminated in "I don't want my daughter to die." 

 

Edited by dsug

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17 minutes ago, dsug said:

It is really impossible for any of us to comment on Selyse "should have felt" until we have seen our own screaming child being tied to a pyre. As twisted as the whole situation was, eventually it all became too real for Selyse and she realized it wasn't worth it. She probably had a million things acing through her mind, but eventually it all culminated in "I don't want my daughter to die." 

 

yeah i agree with that but i would have thought the too real moment would have been her tied up and him ready to burn her at any second... not another 2 mins after when she took the time out to convince Stannis it was the right thing to do.... in that time Shireen could have been burnt to a crisp.

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12 hours ago, Lord Lannister said:

Everyone likes to think they'd be the hero, but in reality most people are going to stand and stare horrified at what happened and then quietly act once no one is looking, like half his army did and desert.

EggZackly!  Sneak off and hope you never set eyes on that child burning basses again.  

Mum just surprised that he only lost half of his forces.   

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3 hours ago, dsug said:

It is really impossible for any of us to comment on Selyse "should have felt" until we have seen our own screaming child being tied to a pyre. As twisted as the whole situation was, eventually it all became too real for Selyse and she realized it wasn't worth it. She probably had a million things acing through her mind, but eventually it all culminated in "I don't want my daughter to die." 

 

Yeah. It all played out as I was expecting.  Selyse was always portrayed as weak so her changing her mind when faced with the very real moment was believable.  Just as Stannis's inability to change course even if he wanted to, which he probably did.  The man was never flexible and once he set his mind to something he saw it through.  After all, he would probably have thought that his men would see it as weakness if he freed his daughter. 

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To make the audience completely set on stannis dying. No more doubts. Only hardcore fans would want him to win.

Edited by Ruhail

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I don't think that Selyse changed her mind or made a 180 about the burning of shireen, I think that first she was doing it because she believed firmly in her religion and that R'hllor will make her husband win the war with that sacrifice but in the end, the mother's love is powerful, it was too late when she realised that she never hated Shireen and she's her daughter after all

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yeah it's not the fact she changed her mind... that i was expecting it was either that it was poorly written or poorly executed in the way she changed it that i was having issue with.... rewatch it and look how she goes from convincing stannis one second to pleading with him to stop.. and the lack of anything on screen to make her turn so fast.

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4 hours ago, StoneColdJorahMormont said:

yeah it's not the fact she changed her mind... that i was expecting it was either that it was poorly written or poorly executed in the way she changed it that i was having issue with.... rewatch it and look how she goes from convincing stannis one second to pleading with him to stop.. and the lack of anything on screen to make her turn so fast.

I think we are just looking too deeply into this.

But people sometimes take on tragic things because they think they can handle it. And then break down right before the situation is about to happen. I think of losing a loved one, if you are in the hospital with them you come to terms that they may die. But as it's actually happening or when it actually happens most people can't handle it and begging God not to let it happen or becoming angry.

Her mother simply convinced herself that it was for a good reason. Then as it was happening the reality that she was going to die hit her. 

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7 hours ago, StoneColdJorahMormont said:

yeah it's not the fact she changed her mind... that i was expecting it was either that it was poorly written or poorly executed in the way she changed it that i was having issue with.... rewatch it and look how she goes from convincing stannis one second to pleading with him to stop.. and the lack of anything on screen to make her turn so fast.

The scene where she convince Stannis is meant to be her convincing herself too that it's what needs to be done. You could see that from the actress's performance. On actually seeing her own daughter screaming she can't really bear it. 

Yes the entire sequence felt rushed so Selyse's turn felt dramatic, but that is Selyse. She is an unstable woman. 

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1 minute ago, khal drogon said:

The scene where she convince Stannis is meant to be her convincing herself too that it's what needs to be done. You could see that from the actress's performance. On actually seeing her own daughter screaming she can't really bear it. 

Yes the entire sequence felt rushed so Selyse's turn felt dramatic, but that is Selyse. She is an unstable woman. 

I'm gonna accept this as the most reasonable way of explaining it but I can't get past the fact Shireen was screaming for minutes while she was talking to Stannis and seem unphased by it, by the time she was done convincing Stannis Shireen could have been burnt to a crisp. But i'll go with the she was also convincing herself while convincing Stannis approach.

But then you could question if she was having doubts would convincing Stannis while trying to convince herself be a good approach ? If she fails to convince herself... she has just went and further convinced the one man that can actually stop it from happening. Would it not had been best to convince herself first before taking a leap like that.

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2 minutes ago, StoneColdJorahMormont said:

I'm gonna accept this as the most reasonable way of explaining it but I can't get past the fact Shireen was screaming for minutes while she was talking to Stannis and seem unphased by it, by the time she was done convincing Stannis Shireen could have been burnt to a crisp. But i'll go with the she was also convincing herself while convincing Stannis approach.

But then you could question if she was having doubts would convincing Stannis while trying to convince herself be a good approach ? If she fails to convince herself... she has just went and further convinced the one man that can actually stop it from happening. Would it not had been best to convince herself first before taking a leap like that.

Do you think Stannis cared for her words? He has already made up his mind thanks to Melisandre. She could do nothing to stop him even if she had a change of mind because her husband is an unyielding bastard. That scene was meant to show her convincing herself and having a last minute change of mind and her helplessness after that. The execution might have been poor but that was in character for Selyse.

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