[Opinion] Maggy ruined my experience with Cersei's story

[Future Null Infinity]

25 minutes ago, A spoon of knife and fork said:

But GRRM probably just wanted it so he could have a twist with it turning out to be Jaime

I really hope that it will be a twist for it, it was the only prophecy in the show and it gave a lot of information about the end of her story and personally just knowing all those events it doesn't matter anymore for me how it will be done and who will do it, I saw many other prophecies from the books in the internet but they weren't as clear and spoiler-like as the Maggy's prophecy

[dsug]

I kind of like the way the show handled Cersei's response to the prophecy. In the show, it's kind of this dark cloud hovering over her, this creeping dread that dwells in the back of her mind. It comes out in her lowest moments, like when she learned of Mycella's death. But its just kind of this nagging feeling, something she tries to forget but can't really avoid. 

In the books, it's pretty much all she thinks about, to the point where it's just stupid and overboard. 

[Lockjaw of House Boltagon]

19 hours ago, dsug said:

At the end of the day, we all know Maggy the Frog was created so George could make Cersei go insane quickly, after he ditched the five year time jump. 

Yes. And it still was unnecessary because Cersei had every REALISTIC reason to go insane and paranoid in AFFC. 

[Ashes Of Westeros]

I think the prophecy or at least parts of it aren't that clear. The valonqar could mean pretty anyone who's a younger sibling, Maeggy didn't say "your valanqar", so it could be  f.e. Arya, Sansa, Sandor Clegane, Daenerys, all of them are younger children.

[A spoon of knife and fork]

3 hours ago, Ashes Of Westeros said:

I think the prophecy or at least parts of it aren't that clear. The valonqar could mean pretty anyone who's a younger sibling, Maeggy didn't say "your valanqar", so it could be  f.e. Arya, Sansa, Sandor Clegane, Daenerys, all of them are younger children.

Valonqar isn't in the TV series.

OP is talking about "Queen you will be... until comes another, younger... more beautiful...  to cast [Cersei] down and take all [she] holds dear".  It's also fairly ambiguosou but I think the issue is if the prophecy is true then Cersei will be taken down by someone before the end, and it's probably Daenerys at this point.  So it feels more like a plot spoiler than anything. 

[Salacious Crumb]

What if the swerve is that we keep believing the prophesy is being fulfilled, until Cersei wildfires KL after Daenerys enters the town, killing her and perhaps her brothers at the same time?  What a surprise that would be if Cersei outlives Daenerys and her brothers when we have all been baited into believing this detailed prophesy.

[braveniler58]

On 7/30/2016 at 1:17 PM, Iron Mother said:

I seriously don't know if "The Volonqyr" was even mentioned in the show.  But I DO know a hell of a lot more was mentioned about Arya killing her.  How many times did we hear her repeat that list over and over, Cercei is the first one she mentions always.  I think it will be Arya and not the Volonqyr.

In the book, it will be different.

But is Jon a "prophecy"?  It's just a "truth" no one knows yet.  And The Maggy prophecy was very specific in certain ways over many years of Cercei's life.

If there is a prophecy of Jon's life, I don't know what that is yet.  Does anyone know?

The Prince That Was Promised and/or Azor Ahai. 

[1000EyesAndOne]

On 7/30/2016 at 7:49 PM, A spoon of knife and fork said:

"Another, younger and more beautiful will cast you down and take all you hold dear"

because of this Cersei has been suspicious and hostile of every woman she's met in her life.  Instead of making friends or allies she ensures literally anyone who can, will be against her.  In particular see how she acts around Marg and Sansa.  It doesn't really matter who eventually takes her down (who, by the way, need not be a queen) - Cersei already ensured it would happen by isolating herself completely (due to trying to avoide the prophecy)

I'm not one to defend Maggy the Frog but mostly I hate the book version because I feel the Valonquar part ruins Cersei and Tyrions relationship.  She didn't need some stupid prophecy to hate and fear him.  But GRRM probably just wanted it so he could have a twist with it turning out to be Jaime

I completely agree with her isolating herself, and that's why I actually quite enjoy Cersei and Maggy's plotline. It could be any queen and it could be either little brother. The fun part is, she did it to herself. It's self-fulfilling prophecy. The part I love to think about is if Cersei had never gone to see Maggy, would any of this be happening to her? Would she treat every person she sees as a fulfillment of the prophecy like garbage if she never heard it? It may seem like the whole thing is ruined before it begins, but so was her life by visiting Maggy. What an awesome story!

[dsug]

probably said this already somewhere in here, but i'm sooo glad the valonqar prophecy doesn't exist. HBO gave us a spooky scene, a lot of explanation for cersei's actions, but didn't tell us how her story ends so I'm very happy about that. 

 

[RhaenysBee]

I mean... did anybody expect Ron to kill Voldemort or Voldemort to win? So are prophecies  

if the show/GRRM wanted to be original they would (have) killed Cersei off before the end of season 6. Possibly for blowing up the Queen of the Seven kingdoms and the religious supreme leader. It would certainly have made more sense than crowning her for the same thing. Or if they wanted to be consistent with the she lives for her children agenda, Cersei could have killed herself after tommen died. 

Btw, if it's any consolation the show screwed up on the prophecy because Cersei had 4 children on the show. She tells about her son with Robert to Catelyn in season 1. (I still don't know if that was supposed to be a lie or not, Tbh )

[dsug]

2 hours ago, RhaenysB said:

I mean... did anybody expect Ron to kill Voldemort or Voldemort to win? So are prophecies  

if the show/GRRM wanted to be original they would (have) killed Cersei off before the end of season 6. Possibly for blowing up the Queen of the Seven kingdoms and the religious supreme leader. It would certainly have made more sense than crowning her for the same thing. Or if they wanted to be consistent with the she lives for her children agenda, Cersei could have killed herself after tommen died. 

Btw, if it's any consolation the show screwed up on the prophecy because Cersei had 4 children on the show. She tells about her son with Robert to Catelyn in season 1. (I still don't know if that was supposed to be a lie or not, Tbh )

The child def existed, she and Robert talk about him. 

I always saw that included under Robert's 20 children, not Cersei's 3. I could totally see Cersei having a "he was no child of mine!" opinion on any child she bore Robert. 

She gave Cat the crocodile tears when talking about him, but she had an obvious agenda with that whole conversation. When she talks about it with Robert, she just kind of flippantly mentions their "first boy" but it's kind of cold. 

[RhaenysBee]

45 minutes ago, dsug said:

The child def existed, she and Robert talk about him. 

I always saw that included under Robert's 20 children, not Cersei's 3. I could totally see Cersei having a "he was no child of mine!" opinion on any child she bore Robert. 

She gave Cat the crocodile tears when talking about him, but she had an obvious agenda with that whole conversation. When she talks about it with Robert, she just kind of flippantly mentions their "first boy" but it's kind of cold. 

Ah right.

I don't think so. I mean I don't know what was their purpose with her having different attitudes in two different scenes, but:

cersei did say to Sansa that she would love Joffrey's children regardless of how bad Joffrey was, because a mother can't help but love her children. So I assume whatever she felt for Robert she would love any child they had together. And Cersei did have a different relationship with Robert at the beginning of their marriage too. She had still hoped for happiness, mutual affection and back then Robert had been a strong handsome macho. Things had started going downhill when Robert kept obsessing over Lyanna and developed a drinking habit. Cersei remembered feeling like the luckiest person at the time of their wedding and probably had little to no problem with Robert at the time of this first baby's birth. She also recalls Robert holding and comforting her when the baby died, which further suggest that their relationship had  not been back then what it was at the time of GoT. In conclusion, I don't think Cersei could or did have a "this is no child of mine" attitude towards that/any baby she carried for 9 months and held in her hands. 

And I must add that it's a bit of a contradiction in the books as well why Cersei aborted every child from Robert if she had in fact liked Robert in the beginning as she remembers. Anybody has any suggestions to resolve this issue? I might misremember things. 

[dsug]

2 minutes ago, RhaenysB said:

Ah right.

I don't think so. I mean I don't know what was their purpose with her having different attitudes in two different scenes, but:

cersei did say to Sansa that she would love Joffrey's children regardless of how bad Joffrey was, because a mother can't help but love her children. So I assume whatever she felt for Robert she would love their child together. And Cersei did have a different relationship with Robert at the beginning of their marriage too. She had still hoped for a happiness, mutual affection and back then Robert was a strong handsome macho. Things started going downhill when Robert kept obsessing over Lyanna and developed a drinking habit. Cersei remembered feeling like the luckiest person at the time of their wedding and probably had little to no problem with Robert at the time of this first baby's birth. She also recalls Robert holding and comforting her when the baby died, which further suggest that their relationship had  not been back then what it was at the time of GoT. In conclusion, I don't think Cersei could or did have a this is no child of mine attitude towards that/any baby she carried to 9 months and held in her hands. 

 

Idk this is Cersei we are talking about. Her being reasonable/loving has never been one of her strong suits. Here's how I saw the progress of events surrounding the child. 

Since childhood, Cersei has lusted for the Red Keep. After being scorned by Prince Rhaegar, she finally gets to marry the new King Robert Baratheon, hunky and charismatic. She's all into it. He's hot and she's gonna be the Queen, life couldn't be better! Then their wedding night comes, Robert gets completely shitfaced (hypocrite Cersei despises drunkenness in others) and flops on top of her and calls her the wrong name. The name of a dead girl, no less! She's infuriated and embarassed, but still recognizes that she was Queen either way, and tries to get past it. Robert's nature as a drunk fuckboy becomes clear to her, and Cersei's vindictive nature comes out. Their marriage sours pretty quickly. Then she gets pregnant. Already resentful of her husband, and probably interested in Jaime again, she bears the child. It gets sick and dies in infancy. The rest is history. 

When she talks about it with Cat, she has a clear agenda. She has just thrown Catelyn's son out a window, and is worried that Bran will wake up and point the finger at her. So, she goes to see Cat under the guise of a concerned friend, to see what the deal is and how much Catelyn knows. She appeals to Cat's motherhood, tells her a story of a dead son and how Robert comforted her when she screamed. None of this is ever confirmed. 

Then we have her conversation with Robert. In a chat dripping with mutual disdain, Cersei and Robert evaluate their marriage. They pretty much tell each other that they suck and hate each other. Cersei admits that she was into Robert at the beginnning, even after their son died. Robert says he never gave a fuck about her. Cersei only brings up the son as a means to manipulate Robert and gain some sympathy, she only mentions her dead child to see if it will get a reaction out of her husband (it doesn't).

Sorry for the essay lol but I think both sides are possible. Cersei is a snake as far as I'm concerned, so I always read the mentions of the boy as no more than calculated manipulation, but you could be right as well. 

[RhaenysBee]

23 minutes ago, dsug said:

Idk this is Cersei we are talking about. Her being reasonable/loving has never been one of her strong suits. Here's how I saw the progress of events surrounding the child. 

Since childhood, Cersei has lusted for the Red Keep. After being scorned by Prince Rhaegar, she finally gets to marry the new King Robert Baratheon, hunky and charismatic. She's all into it. He's hot and she's gonna be the Queen, life couldn't be better! Then their wedding night comes, Robert gets completely shitfaced (hypocrite Cersei despises drunkenness in others) and flops on top of her and calls her the wrong name. The name of a dead girl, no less! She's infuriated and embarassed, but still recognizes that she was Queen either way, and tries to get past it. Robert's nature as a drunk fuckboy becomes clear to her, and Cersei's vindictive nature comes out. Their marriage sours pretty quickly. Then she gets pregnant. Already resentful of her husband, and probably interested in Jaime again, she bears the child. It gets sick and dies in infancy. The rest is history. 

When she talks about it with Cat, she has a clear agenda. She has just thrown Catelyn's son out a window, and is worried that Bran will wake up and point the finger at her. So, she goes to see Cat under the guise of a concerned friend, to see what the deal is and how much Catelyn knows. She appeals to Cat's motherhood, tells her a story of a dead son and how Robert comforted her when she screamed. None of this is ever confirmed. 

Then we have her conversation with Robert. In a chat dripping with mutual disdain, Cersei and Robert evaluate their marriage. They pretty much tell each other that they suck and hate each other. Cersei admits that she was into Robert at the beginnning, even after their son died. Robert says he never gave a fuck about her. Cersei only brings up the son as a means to manipulate Robert and gain some sympathy, she only mentions her dead child to see if it will get a reaction out of her husband (it doesn't).

Sorry for the essay lol but I think both sides are possible. Cersei is a snake as far as I'm concerned, so I always read the mentions of the boy as no more than calculated manipulation, but you could be right as well. 

I see your point of view. That's certainly one way to interpret things. 

I personally don't see why Cersei, who at this point doesn't give a shit about Robert, would want to see if he gives a shit about their child, whom even she herself doesn't give a shit about in your opinion. I just don't see the motivation or the purpose of such attempt. If Cersei wanted or needed Robert's sympathy at any point she had better means to get it than bringing up a child that died in infancy 15+ years ago. 

And on the show Cersei's character is heavily based on her love for her children. Maybe not so much in the books, but the whole 4th child issue comes up in the show so the show context is not negligible, imo.

but I can see why you don't think Cersei had affection for that baby (or how her love my children agenda failed on the show). I still stick with my own interpretation though. Having said that, I think Cersei is a despicable person with few to none positive characteristics. 

[Simbacca]

"Everybody wants to know their future, until they know their future." 

Maggy didn't come up to Cersei and blabbed about her future. Cersei sought her out. Maggy warned Cersei about knowing one's future, and Cersei responded by threating Maggy if she didn't tell it. Cersei thought she was going to get the answers she wanted, but she didn't.  My feeling is that as the audience, this is what we are suppose to take away from this scene. Be careful when looking for answers, you might not like them when you find out. 

 

[The Agency of Sansa Stark]

I'd say it enhancerd the plot for me. That Maggy actress was F-I-N-E fine!

[thehandwipes]

Quote

 I also recall that somewhere, I think it was Tyrion, said something about how prophecy "appears" to help but indeed can do the opposite or something to that effect.  Can't remember the exact quote off the top of my head.

That was Marwyn at the end of AFFC: Prophecy will bite your dick off.

I think the point GRRM was trying to make with the Maggy prophecy (and Marwyn's pronouncement in the last chapter of AFFC) was more about prophecy in the world of ASOIAF than it was about Cersei herself.  It was about establishing the dangers of becoming enmeshed in prophecy as both Dany and Jon have arcs in ADWD that see them putting greater stock in it.

And while I can't disagree that Cersei storyline has been spoiled to a degree it also added another dimension to her character.  And considering the number of theories out there about Cersei's end I'd say there's still plenty of ambiguity.

[CaptainTheo]

I felt like Maggy the Frog prophecy was damaging in both the books and the show, for similar reasons. It implies that the future is set in stone and nothing can be done about it. And Cersei already hated Tyrion before she ever got the prophecy. She tortured him even when he was born until Jaime told him to stop. It also seems unnecessary and could even be considered a spoiler of sorts.

Also inaccurate (in the show) the bit about all three children being crowned, as Myrcella wasn't. If that merely meant their hair colour it seems a bit of a cop-out. Why would Maggy bother with a detail as trivial as the hair colour of her children?

[TheKitttenGuard]

1 hour ago, CaptainTheo said:

I felt like Maggy the Frog prophecy was damaging in both the books and the show, for similar reasons. It implies that the future is set in stone and nothing can be done about it. And Cersei already hated Tyrion before she ever got the prophecy. She tortured him even when he was born until Jaime told him to stop. It also seems unnecessary and could even be considered a spoiler of sorts.

Also inaccurate (in the show) the bit about all three children being crowned, as Myrcella wasn't. If that merely meant their hair colour it seems a bit of a cop-out. Why would Maggy bother with a detail as trivial as the hair colour of her children?

Crown= head of hair has been a  accepted interpretation.   It does not have to mean a Royal Crown though I am sure some have interpreted that as so.