Can the name of the mother be passed on to save her House?

[Oracle.Clear.Rivers]

Ok, let me explain with this scenario:

Sun, the Lord of House Black, marries Moon, an only daughter, of House White. They had two children. Both are male. Naturally, the first son (let's say Star Black) will inherit and the second (Cloud Black) will be a spare and possibly a future bannerman of his brother in the future.

Now, House White was eventually killed (by war or sickness, take your pick) and Lady Moon became the last living member of their family. To avoid having House White extinct, she changes her second son's name and passes her maiden surname (clan name or is it house name?) to him. So Cloud Black became Cloud White, Lord of House White.

Can this happen in Westeros? It would save a lot of noble houses imo.

[devilish]

16 minutes ago, Oracle.Clear.Rivers said:

Ok, let me explain with this scenario:

Sun, the Lord of House Black, marries Moon, an only daughter, of House White. They had two children. Both are male. Naturally, the first son (let's say Star Black) will inherit and the second (Cloud Black) will be a spare and possibly a future bannerman of his brother in the future.

Now, House White was eventually killed (by war or sickness, take your pick) and Lady Moon became the last living member of their family. To avoid having House White extinct, she changes her second son's name and passes her maiden surname (clan name or is it house name?) to him. So Cloud Black became Cloud White, Lord of House White.

Can this happen in Westeros? It would save a lot of noble houses imo.

I believe it can and that's exactly what Robert B was banking on with the Lannisters (ie Tywin will bypass Tyrion and appoint Tommen as heir). It would be a bit awkward since the older brother and the king would be indebted to his richer and in some way more powerful younger brother. However it would bail the crown off since Tommen would probably keep on bankrolling his older brother

[Scootaloo Stark]

Like with bastard names, there are no definite rules.

They'll decide it when it happens.

I'm sure if it's some major House like Lannister or Tyrell, and lots of money is involved, they'd find ways to settle the issue. And your solution is a pretty good one.

So I think yes, it can happen, if the circumstances are right.

[Nictarion]

Ofc it can. Unless you think the Starks had a male heir every generation for 8000 years. 

I'm sure it happened quite a bit. 

[Philokles]

Yes. A couple of examples of the mother's name being passed on are Maege's daughters being the Mormont heirs and Bael the Bard's son becoming Lord Stark.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Yes and not only if she is the only surviving memeber of the house. It could happen in any case if the woman is the heir of the house and a Lady of her own right.

[house of dayne]

By kings decree anything could happen...

[Lost Melnibonean]

5 hours ago, Scootaloo Stark said:

Like with bastard names, there are no definite rules.

They'll decide it when it happens.

I'm sure if it's some major House like Lannister or Tyrell, and lots of money is involved, they'd find ways to settle the issue. And your solution is a pretty good one.

So I think yes, it can happen, if the circumstances are right.

This. The Hornwood estate is instructive. Challe gers would be likely. I think the overlord wold have to consent, and in the case of the throne, a council would add legitimacy. 

[Jon's Queen Consort]

8 minutes ago, house of dayne said:

By kings decree anything could happen...

I don't think so. A woman can inherit and pass her inheritage to her children like Arwyn Oakheart, Anya Waynwood, Maege Mormont and Lyessa Flint

[Pain killer Jane]

Harrold Hardyng is the Arryn heir because his grandmother was Alys Arryn and the sister of Jon Arryn. Interestingly enough Harry's mother was a Waynwood. If Sweet Robin were to die without issue Harry would become Lord of the Eyrie. The thing that would be interesting is if Harry will rule the Vale as Lord Arryn, Lord Waynwood or Lord Hardyng. I personally think he would be Harrold Hardyng, # Lord Arryn and just make House Arryn into a moniker since the House is extant in the male line but it would serve to remind everyone that he is still the rightful ruler of the Vale. This actually does happen in real life and there are many Duchy, Baronies, Viscounts whose surnames are not the original surname of the title. Plus in real life there have been many Queen Consorts that held lands and titles in their own right and then seceded those titles and lands to their younger children so that the crown would not absorb them. It was a tactic of both keeping the crown in check to the nobility (so that crown would not be too centralized) and the nobility in check to the crown as those children would be expected to support the crown (keep the nobility from rallying against the crown).  

I really wish that Westeros had a College of Arms (England) or at least Lord Lyon King of Arms (Scotland). 

Personally I subscribe to the theory that Timmett will be the Lord Arryn come the Dawn. I fully expect Westeros to become a constitutional monarchy with Habeas Corpus, Bill of Rights and a Parliment after the Long Night. 

[Jon's Queen Consort]

13 minutes ago, Pain killer Jane said:

since the House is extant in the male line

If a woman's heir had to take their father's names when they inherit their mother's House there wouldn't had been those great Houses in Westeros. It doesn't make sense for someone to inherit the Great House but don't change his name to a much more respected, important and prestigious name.

16 minutes ago, Pain killer Jane said:

Personally I subscribe to the theory that Timmett will be the Lord Arryn come the Dawn.

That never made sense. Why the Lords in Vale should accept barbarians for their Lord?

[Lost Melnibonean]

4 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

If a woman's heir had to take their father's names when they inherit their mother's House there wouldn't had been those great Houses in Westeros. It doesn't make sense for someone to inherit the Great House but don't change his name to a much more respected, important and prestigious name.

That never made sense. Why the Lords in Vale should accept barbarians for their Lord?

Not all of them will. Bronze Yohn will, though. 

[Pain killer Jane]

4 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

If a woman's heir had to take their father's names when they inherit their mother's House there wouldn't had been those great Houses in Westeros. It doesn't make sense for someone to inherit the Great House but don't change his name to a much more respected, important and prestigious name.

Please Read this on the real life title Baron Cromwell.

 

5 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

That never made sense. Why the Lords in Vale should accept barbarians for their Lord?

I fully expect most of the Vale Lords to die during the Long Night coming. 

 

2 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Not all of them will. Bronze Yohn will, though. 

I agree with you on Bronze Yohn. And theory of Timett coming into Sansa's story in the Vale theorized by sweetsunray in this essay. 

[Jon's Queen Consort]

11 minutes ago, Pain killer Jane said:

Please Read this on the real life title Baron Cromwell.

Does it involve 10000 years old House, dragons, Ice Zombies, white trees with red leaves red faces, families who used to marry brother and sister, people who warg animals, krakens, gods? If not it doesn't mean that they have anything to do with Westeros. On the other hand examples from the books when children do take their mother's surnames is more important for what will happen it the future. How do you think that 10000 years old houses have survived so far? Only by male line?

11 minutes ago, Pain killer Jane said:

I fully expect most of the Vale Lords to die during the Long Night coming. 

Most of them don’t mean that the whole Westerosi feudal system will be extinct for something like that to happen. Also it makes no sense why barbarians who have no idea how ruling works to be the people who will rule them also why do you believe that they will survive?

I agree with you on Bronze Yohn. And theory of Timett coming into Sansa's story in the Vale theorized by sweetsunray in this essay. 

I know that one but first we don't know it for sure, Westeros don't know it for sure and it's impossible that they will chose a barbarian to rule them.

[Ser Leftwich]

We have an existing case in the books, the Oakhearts.

Lady Arwyn Oakheart is ruling her family. Arys was her youngest son, so she must have older sons. Her eldest son is not ruling the family, therefore, she must be able to be The Oakheart.

Isn't there a SSM about this?

[Jon's Queen Consort]

2 minutes ago, Ser Leftwich said:

We have an existing case in the books, the Oakhearts.

Lady Arwyn Oakheart is ruling her family. Arys was her youngest son, so she must have older sons. Her eldest son is not ruling the family, therefore, she must be able to be The Oakheart.

Isn't there a SSM about this?

Also  Anya Waynwood, her sons Morton, Donnel, Wallace and grandson Roland have the Waynwood name and the fact that she still rules means that she is the Lady one her own right. Lyessa Flint is the mother of Robin Flint and the Lady of Widow's Watch. Finally there is also the case of Maege and her daughters.

[Lost Melnibonean]

18 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Does it involve 10000 years old House, dragons, Ice Zombies, white trees with red leaves red faces, families who used to marry brother and sister, people who warg animals, krakens, gods? If not it doesn't mean that they have anything to do with Westeros. On the other hand examples from the books when children do take their mother's surnames is more important for what will happen it the future. How do you think that 10000 years old houses have survived so far? Only by male line?

Most of them don’t mean that the whole Westerosi feudal system will be extinct for something like that to happen. Also it makes no sense why barbarians who have no idea how ruling works to be the people who will rule them also why do you believe that they will survive?

I know that one but first we don't know it for sure, Westeros don't know it for sure and it's impossible that they will chose a barbarian to rule them.

If Sweet Robin gets sweetsleeped, and if Bronze Yohn wants to challenge Petyr's control of the Vale through Sansa and Harrold, he could make use of Timett. Since Tyrion promised to give the Vale to the clans, since a Lannister always pays his debts, since putting Timett in the high seat of the Arryns would satisfy that debt, and since Tyrion owes another kind of debt to Petyr, I expect to see Tyrion facilitate an alliance of the clans with the families of the Vale that trace their houses back to the First Men. 

[Jon's Queen Consort]

5 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

If Sweet Robin gets sweetsleeped, and if Bronze Yohn wants to challenge Petyr's control of the Vale through Sansa and Harrold, he could make use of Timett.

He could do that but the question is who would firstly believe that Timett is an Arryn through his mother side and secondly and much more important who will actually support him? It would be more difficult than making people believing and supporting Jon as a trueborn Targaryen.

5 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Since Tyrion promised to give the Vale to the clans, since a Lannister always pays his debts, 

And? Tyrion has or had no power over the Vale.

5 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

since putting Timett in the high seat of the Arryns would satisfy that debt, and since Tyrion owes another kind of debt to Petyr, I expect to see Tyrion facilitate an alliance of the clans with the families of the Vale that trace their houses back to the First Men. 

We haven't seen Tyrion thinking about it not ever once and somehow he will come during a war, gain power and enforce his beliefs on the Vale Lords and they will not oppose him? Sorry but I don't see how this is possible.

[Lost Melnibonean]

11 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

1. He could do that but the question is who would firstly believe that Timett is an Arryn through his mother side and secondly and much more important who will actually support him? It would be more difficult than making people believing and supporting Jon as a trueborn Targaryen.

2. And? Tyrion has or had no power over the Vale.

3. We haven't seen Tyrion thinking about it not ever once and somehow he will come during a war, gain power and enforce his beliefs on the Vale Lords and they will not oppose him? Sorry but I don't see how this is possible.

1. If Petyr knows that the older sister of Harrold mum was carried off by the Burned Men, the conclusion can be reached by charactees in the story. 

2. He will if he Daenerys's envoy, and if he has a big, cream and gold dragon backing him up. 

3. Fair point. But we do hear over and over that the Lannisters pay their debts. 

[Jon's Queen Consort]

1 minute ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

1. If Petyr knows that the older sister of Harrold mum was carried off by the Burned Men, the conclusion can be reached by charactees in the story.

I don't see how. The fact that a lady was been taken by the Burned men doesn't mean that she has to be Timett's mother. She could had died during the assault, never had a child, died by a disease before being able to have a child, killed herself and so on. So how they could persuade Westeros about what their claim?

7 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

2. He will if he Daenerys's envoy, and if he has a big, cream and gold dragon backing him up. 

This is based on way too many wishful thinking like that Tyrion will come with Dany and have power when he comes, he will have Viseryon, he would care about the Vale, anyone will care about what a kinslaying dwarf say, that Dany will actual care about what he wants and she will support him with army when she has a war to fight

12 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

3. Fair point. But we do hear over and over that the Lannisters pay their debts. 

We hear it but that doesn't mean that will happen. He had done nothing to help them when he had the chance and the power so he hadn't pay his debts when he could do it.