Between Sansa and Daenerys, who would make the better ruling Queen?

[Britisher]

1 hour ago, Drogonthedread said:

Yeah right they had such a better lives ..

Look Ihave no problem in admitting that dany had made many mistakes but if people say the lives where so better of slaves before dany came ...I can't stop laughing at that ..you know how much people die just for making a single unsullied. .Or how many boys and dwarves are fed to bears and lions..

You yourself said that slaves from volantis will revolt... If their lives were so bet

Daenerys controls all of the unsullied: she could have ended the training of more whilst keeping parts of the slave trade in force before gradually abolishing it entirely (allowing time for Astapor to diversify it's economy rather than face complete economic and political ruin).

How has she made their lives better? Look at what she's done in Astapor - three bloody coups, a war and everyone is back in chains: that doesn't scream "freedom" to me. If she loses in Meereen she will have only created war, death and poverty.

[The Fattest Leech]

9 minutes ago, Little Scribe of Naath said:

The major problem I have with Dany is...she doesn't actually seem to have learnt the right lessons out of her time in Meereen. She wanted to rule Meereen so that she could 'train' herself to be a queen, but I don't really see what she actually has learnt there. Remember, thousands of people have died for this training. On the contrary, her final chapter in ADWD ends with an epiphany essentially saying, "I tried one approach, didn't work, so let me go for fire and blood."  

Frankly, she just seems to be doing the same thing as always to me, taking emotional decisions with no real strategic or critical thinking or forethought, which allows her enemies to manipulate her like a harp. She would be eaten alive if she was in Westeros, by even a mediocre player of the Game of Thrones.  I would have been willing to give her the benefit of the doubt if we see her style of thinking and action changing and becoming sharper in ADWD as opposed to before (like Sansa to Alayne,for example), but that's not what happens.

I very much agree with this part. Very much. Even Barristan, who is somewhat of a Targophile himself, sees how Dany is not making the right decisions with his own "Fire and Mud" dialogue. Dany has dragon-armor and that is hard to fight against. Not imposible, just hard and most people in Westeros are not currently equipped to handle dragons and will probably encounter a second conquering of "bow or burn".

Sansa has been learning and Sansa has had the experience with a range of people from common to highborn. She goes to the Sept's often and "joins her voice to the others" and even holds hands to "join" with common people. She is learning both politics and religion. Sansa has learned what to do, in addition to what not to do (Cersei, Joffery, Baelish). Learning right from wrong is a common theme in all of the Stark kids story arcs.

[Little Scribe of Naath]

31 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

I very much agree with this part. Very much. Even Barristan, who is somewhat of a Targophile himself, sees how Dany is not making the right decisions with his own "Fire and Mud" dialogue. Dany has dragon-armor and that is hard to fight against. Not imposible, just hard and most people in Westeros are not currently equipped to handle dragons and will probably encounter a second conquering of "bow or burn".

Sansa has been learning and Sansa has had the experience with a range of people from common to highborn. She goes to the Sept's often and "joins her voice to the others" and even holds hands to "join" with common people. She is learning both politics and religion. Sansa has learned what to do, in addition to what not to do (Cersei, Joffery, Baelish). Learning right from wrong is a common theme in all of the Stark kids story arcs.

Exactly. Sansa was naive and trusting when she was younger, but she actually seems to be learning from her mistakes. She starts becoming much sharper as Alayne. However Dany's style of thinking doesn't seem to have changed - she doesn't seem to have changed her emotional decision making to strategic, clear thinking, or systemic planning for the future. She just seems to feel - "Oh, I compromised and it didn't work, so now let me be ruthless", rather than actually critically evaluating her mistakes.

Plus, I'm not willing to give her a pass on lack of knowledge - she has the world's resources at her feet, she can get books and educate herself. Or if she's not willing to do that, set Missandei to the task (like Jon did with Sam about the Others). Reading a bit about past rulers and their styles of governance, successes, mistakes could have done a lot of help. For example, she could have got a hint on how to deal with the pale mare from BR's actions during the Great Spring Sickness. 

[Tucu]

12 minutes ago, Little Scribe of Naath said:

Exactly. Sansa was naive and trusting when she was younger, but she actually seems to be learning from her mistakes. She starts becoming much sharper as Alayne. However Dany's style of thinking doesn't seem to have changed - she doesn't seem to have changed her emotional decision making to strategic, clear thinking, or systemic planning for the future. She just seems to feel - "Oh, I compromised and it didn't work, so now let me be ruthless", rather than actually critically evaluating her mistakes.

Plus, I'm not willing to give her a pass on lack of knowledge - she has the world's resources at her feet, she can get books and educate herself. Or if she's not willing to do that, set Missandei to the task (like Jon did with Sam about the Others). Reading a bit about past rulers and their styles of governance, successes, mistakes could have done a lot of help. For example, she could have got a hint on how to deal with the pale mare from BR's actions during the Great Spring Sickness. 

This cycles back to her making enemies of the elites. Her wisest advisors are a 11 year girl and an old knight. There were probably wise people in Astapor that could have counselled her, but she killed them. In Yunkai there were people like the Yellow Whale, but she made enemies out of them. In Meereen she has the Green Grace and Reznak, but she did nothing to make them loyal subjects. No promises of wealth, power or glory.

[The Fattest Leech]

11 minutes ago, Little Scribe of Naath said:

Exactly. Sansa was naive and trusting when she was younger, but she actually seems to be learning from her mistakes. She starts becoming much sharper as Alayne. However Dany's style of thinking doesn't seem to have changed - she doesn't seem to have changed her emotional decision making to strategic, clear thinking, or systemic planning for the future. She just seems to feel - "Oh, I compromised and it didn't work, so now let me be ruthless", rather than actually critically evaluating her mistakes.

Plus, I'm not willing to give her a pass on lack of knowledge - she has the world's resources at her feet, she can get books and educate herself. Or if she's not willing to do that, set Missandei to the task (like Jon did with Sam about the Others). Reading a bit about past rulers and their styles of governance, successes, mistakes could have done a lot of help. For example, she could have got a hint on how to deal with the pale mare from BR's actions during the Great Spring Sickness. 

This reminds me, didn't Jorah give Dany history books as a wedding gift? I wonder how often she reads them, or when the last time she read them was??? Dany, gurl, it's time for a re-read!

It's funny you mention Missandai and compared her to Sam and Jon. Daenerys and Jon are both given similar situations and people to use to help develop their own character, but they both usually make different decisions which makes their paths divide more and more. Jon, while incredibly similar to his blood father, yet not a carbon copy, Jon ends up seeing the great value in books like Rhaegar did, and with that realization he sets Sam to learn more for the benefit of the realm (of which he is trying to save).

[Little Scribe of Naath]

19 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

This reminds me, didn't Jorah give Dany history books as a wedding gift? I wonder how often she reads them, or when the last time she read them was??? Dany, gurl, it's time for a re-read!

IIRC, she reads them, but says they are more like children's tales, not true Westerosi history. Obviously if they were true history, she'd have known about her father by now

19 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

It's funny you mention Missandai and compared her to Sam and Jon. Daenerys and Jon are both given similar situations and people to use to help develop their own character, but they both usually make different decisions which makes their paths divide more and more. Jon, while incredibly similar to his blood father, yet not a carbon copy, Jon ends up seeing the great value in books like Rhaegar did, and with that realization he sets Sam to learn more for the benefit of the realm (of which he is trying to save).

The fundamental difference between Jon and Dany is in their way of thinking, IMO. Jon thinks for himself, and sticks to his beliefs and decisions strongly and sees to it that they are enforced. He's not a man who can be influenced easily. In contrast, Dany is extremely easy to manipulate, from an outsider's perspective. Most of her decisions are based on emotional, on the spot judgement based on what someone has come and told her (see: chaining the dragons up because a man says Drogon ate a child, with no proof. Her dragons are the source of her power, she should have been training them instead of leaving them in the dungeons.)  Hence, her success as a ruler greatly depends on the advisor - very similar to how Davos is for Stannis.

[The Fattest Leech]

2 minutes ago, Little Scribe of Naath said:

IIRC, she reads them, but says they are more like children's tales, not true Westerosi history. Obviously if they were true history, she'd have known about her father by now

The fundamental difference between Jon and Dany is in their way of thinking, IMO. Jon thinks for himself, and sticks to his beliefs and decisions strongly and sees to it that they are enforced. He's not a man who can be influenced easily. In contrast, Dany is extremely easy to manipulate, from an outsider's perspective. Most of her decisions are based on emotional, on the spot judgement based on what someone has come and told her (see: chaining the dragons up because a man says Drogon ate a child, with no proof.)  Hence, her success as a ruler greatly depends on the advisor - very similar to how Davos is for Stannis.

Ok, this sounds familiar. And oh yes about her father

The books at her wedding were a small detail that I only just remembered now. I am curious what books they actually are (I can't remember) and if they were actually not like fairytales, but instead were much more like reality she will face in Westeros but she wrote them off as just tales? Hmmm, I have to go dig a few things up.

[Marcus corvinus]

7 hours ago, Drogonthedread said:

 

Who said she didn't err..

On contrast she learns from those errors.  That's how the ruling works and no Hunan is perfect and dany is not single in this.  

She had gone through such failings and hardships and rulings ...compare that with Margery and sansa ...what they even have done to be compared with dany ..

Both astopor and yunaki was mistake that even dany accepted and hence she tries to stay in meereen ..

1)Again with this claim...where is this given that because of her crucifying the masters is the reason there was no peace ..why it was never brought up again in ADWD ...why does no one like hizdar green grade or yunkish masters make one comment about this action ..

No matter if she had not crucified or not ...masters would never have accepted the peaceful way ..they wanted to have their old ways and dany is stopping them from it..

so slavery was the issue not other things. 

 

2) she rejects the astopoe alliance because she wisely knows that the army Cleon created is a joke and they can't win over the yunkai.. and she wisely advises Cleon to not to engage in battle..but he was foolish ..

She knew if she had left she would have lost meereen too and had no place for her and her peooel and only to be slaughtered by the masters .and she wisely knew that she can't have enemies with in and with out ...so  by making compromises managed to unite the meereen and fight the enemies outside..

Yes she is not there on meereen now ...but its not what she wanted ..and even if she is not there she had kept all her resources at ready beforehand if such attack happens ..

 

 

 

Dany has failed and impact more because she is actually a character and has a large unoact and ruling when compared to  Margery a character who is on sidelines and barely present and not even know single hardships that dany and even sansa went through..

 

uh...because both of them are conspirators against her? And furthermore if you went to a military dictator to curry favor with, say get married to her or ask for donations and patronage would you say, '' I'm really grateful for your approval and money but those crucifixions were not cool... ''

You flaunt dictators and kings, you don't point out their atrocities to their face. In their minds its always justice. You can try but only if you are someone really close to said dictator

[Marcus corvinus]

10 hours ago, John Doe said:

1. Dany... excellent general? She has never lead a battle. She had one smart idea witht he sewers at Mereen, and that could have easily led to the deaths of her best advisors. 

2. Her dragons inspire loyalty. Without them, she would have died. Afterwards she inspired loyalty by freeing the slaves, but she can't do that in Westeros. I'll give you that she is charismatic, but many westerosi rulers are charismatic, and not all of them necessarily make good rulers. 

3. She didn't abandon her claim to free slaves, she is still planning to return to westeros. Moreover, she crucified 163 people, many of them were probably innocent, she burnt Mirii at the stake, who was innocent, and abandonen Astapor completely. After killing every citizen over 12 years in that city. No, she is not among the most empathetic and moral nobles. 

4. She has the best claim if you're a Targaryen supporter, if you're a Baratheon or Blackfyre supporter she doesn't. 

 

So I sort of agree with your point 2, although without her magical dragons and her freed people who have no other choice but to stick with her, she would have died or be with the dosh kaleen now. I agree that her freeing slaves requires empathy, but her morality is still horribly flawed and she doesn't see that serfdom in westeros isn't all that different. However I also think she will be mad.

 

well said mate. She does things out of impulse and emotion not clear long-term thinking. Even ramsay has a quick cunning but that only gets you so far when you sit the throne. Only those who are able to think long term like tywin, tyrion and roose are able to rule properly

[Makk]

On 8/26/2016 at 6:08 PM, NorthernXY said:

Culture changes don't happen over night, it takes generations; generations have to start forgetting about what was.  Tyrion even says that most slave owners treat their slaves like most lords treat their servants in Westeros.  A tween has to hold back her "violent instincts"?  Not a great sign in a family renowned for being mad.  Most started out as "normal" and progressively became worse, ex. her dear old dad.

Yes, that's the point, changing a culture takes a long time and is very difficult, that is what George is trying to show. But it has to start some time and that is what Daenerys has done. She has made a law that abolished slavery and she has taken steps through a mixture of force and diplomacy to give that law a good chance of sticking while maintaining a measure of peace. As I said before, I strongly believe the peace both within Meereen and with the Yunkish was genuine.

As for holding back her violent tendencies, yeah I'm not disputing she has them at all, in fact I think they are going to get stronger over the next book. But I specifically wasn't using that as an argument to state she was a good ruler. I was refuting the points that she is poor at reading the situation, shes been played a fool by Hizdar and the Yunkish, shes not stern enough, and she trusts people too much.

I think she read the situation perfectly but now she has decided on her own accord that she has sacrificed too much and is going to be more Dragon in the future (that is what her last chapter was symbolising). And of course Barristan has been played a fool and thrown away most of her hard work.

[Qhorin Halfhand and Yoren]

Dany:

Pros

* Seems to be charismatic

* has powerful dragons

* Can get a powerful military

* most other canditates for the throne are even worse

* can direct her military

* can sometimes give a shit about smallfolk

* has some legitimacy for the throne

* smarter, more experienced than Sansa

* Her dragons could be useful against the others

* has some prophetic hints/knowledge

Cons

* Probably infertile

* Westerosi customs and lords prefer male king to a queen.

* Her army is going to be seen as barbarians and the interests of the likes of Dothraki would conflict with the interests of Westerosi

* Westeros will probably dislike them.

* Dany is often quite cruel when she gets angry and can easilly get angry towards those she thinks are enemies.

* Has reasons to dislike many of houses, and is quite entitled.

* Dragons are very destructive

* Doesn't know too much about Westeros

* Aegon would probably be a better alternative by the time Dany appears in Westeros

* Westeros is too chaoitic and divided. Regions want independence and there is lack of order.

* bad taste in men

* like her brother and many else, prophecy might mislead her or worsen her judgement.

 

Dany will probably sit on the Iron throne for a short time, kill Aegon, burn Dorne and other places, not manage to unite Westeros, (there will be others also calling themselves kings like perhaps Jon) help defeat the Others, and die without succeeding at getting a lasting dynasty.

 

Sansa is more naive and less smart and experienced, but she has more legitimacy in the regions where there was king of the north than Dany has for Westeros as a whole. And the less negatives of Dany's bad history with Westeros, dragons, and cruel disposition. Who knows how Sansa will change, but if she changes to some sort of competent, intelligent ruler that might be somewhat jarring to her previous character. I wonder if it can be pulled off and come of as believable. Rather than becoming some master player I see Sansa becoming more like an Arianne Martel like player at least on the shorter term, which is an evolution from where she was previously in terms of how she didn't even try to play the game . Which means she can still pull some plotting and based on circumstances might have some success. But it doesn't require some master player for Sansa to be accepted in the north or perhaps even the Vale and Riverlands. If Jon becomes king in the north first but has an expiration date and focuses more on putting shit in order and dealing with the Others, Sansa might have a decent shot at becoming queen. She also has the pro and the negative that LF might plan to help her do that and gain power in those regions.

To put it short Sansa Stark is probably more acceptable to the North, Vale and Riverlans than Dany would be to Westeros, and she is less likely to be known for fire and blood and attrocities, so she could last longer. So Sansa might become queen of the north.

Since Sansa has much less reasons to have anger, hatred and cruelty towards the Vale, Riverlands, and the north, she would be better queen to them than Dany would be.

I can't see anyone uniting all of Westeros or Sansa becoming queen of the realm, so Dany has a better chance calling herself queen of Westeros and has much better blood legitimacy to the throne.

Since Dany is more competent with a military and has dragons, despite all the needless blood and chaos she would cause in Westeros, she could help against the Others in a way Sansa couldn't, perhaps in a battle in the trident.

 

 

[lojzelote]

Daenerys, any day.

She is actually gaining some experience in this particular field by doing things... which sometimes lead to mistakes, true, but hopefully she will learn from these mistakes and become more effective in future. She's on a training arch to inspire, lead and rule over masses.

Sansa doesn't get any of that. She has been a piece of furniture since AGoT, without any freedom to act, any agency, so of course she hasn't made any serious mistakes... but this inability to act doesn't somehow make her a competent ruler. The best she can hope to learn from Littlefinger is to manipulate events from shadows, but that's something completely different from being the responsible person in charge, constantly acting under everybody's scrutiny.

[lojzelote]

4 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

This reminds me, didn't Jorah give Dany history books as a wedding gift? I wonder how often she reads them, or when the last time she read them was??? Dany, gurl, it's time for a re-read!

It's funny you mention Missandai and compared her to Sam and Jon. Daenerys and Jon are both given similar situations and people to use to help develop their own character, but they both usually make different decisions which makes their paths divide more and more. Jon, while incredibly similar to his blood father, yet not a carbon copy, Jon ends up seeing the great value in books like Rhaegar did, and with that realization he sets Sam to learn more for the benefit of the realm (of which he is trying to save).

Well, I wouldn't heap too much praise on him in this regard. As far as I can remember, Jon was dismissive of Sam's research in the NW archives in the past (in ACoK, and in ADwD he cuts him mid-sentence), and as far as we know he himself hasn't even touched the book that Maester Aemon recommended him to read before his departure. So I'd say he's much closer to Dany than Rhaegar the bookworm in his approach to books.

I'd also challenge you that Jon bears any deeper resemblance to his probable biological father, aside of a somewhat melancholic mien (though Ned wasn't an overly cheerful guy either, was he?). Jon has shown no interest in either music or intellectual pursuits, which had been Rhaegar's domain. He's far more of a Ned type of guy, really, which can be expected since he's the one who actually raised him.

[The Fattest Leech]

1 minute ago, lojzelote said:

Well, I wouldn't heap too much praise on him in this regard. As far as I can remember, Jon was dismissive of Sam's research in the NW archives in the past (in ACoK, and in ADwD he cuts him mid-sentence), and as far as we know he himself hasn't even touched the book that Maester Aemon recommended him to read before his departure. He's nowhere the league of Rhaegar the bookworm.

I'd also challenge you that Jon bears any deeper resemblance to his probable biological father, aside of a somewhat melancholic mien (though Ned wasn't an overly cheerful guy either, was he?). Jon has shown no interest in either music or intellectual pursuits, which had been Rhaegar's domain. He's far more of a Ned type of guy, really, which can be expected since he's the one who actually raised him.

You are correct about Jon not being a Rhaegar level bookworm... but he does naturally excel at other studies and is even better than Rob at them, which urkes Catelyn.

I agree, Jon does have learned qualities of his bonded father Ned as much as his blood father Rhaegar. He is a mix of both and it goes way beyond just "moodiness". Things I acknowledged in other threads as well. Jon has many other things in common with Rhaegar, enough to be his son, but that does not mean Jon has to be mini-Rhaegar in all aspects. That would be kinda predictable and boring in my mind

[lojzelote]

10 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

You are correct about Jon not being a Rhaegar level bookworm... but he does naturally excel at other studies and is even better than Rob at them, which urkes Catelyn.

I agree, Jon does have learned qualities of his bonded father Ned as much as his blood father Rhaegar. He is a mix of both and it goes way beyond just "moodiness". Things I acknowledged in other threads as well. Jon has many other things in common with Rhaegar, enough to be his son, but that does not mean Jon has to be mini-Rhaegar in all aspects. That would be kinda predictable and boring in my mind

Does he excell? Sansa is supposed to write better than all of her brothers, and Arya's the one natural at math. No such claim is ever made of Jon, either by himself or anybody else. Which doesn't mean Jon is stupid, of course not, but it doesn't make him exceptionally good and neccessarily not even above average.

Anyway, the line about Jon and Robb was that the two had been constantly competing, and sometimes won the former, sometimes the latter. It doesn't say that Jon always beat Robb at everything, not even most of the time.

As for Jon's resemblance to Rhaegar, I don't really see it. They are both decent introverted guys, but so are great many other men. Anyway, if anybody is being compared to Rhaegar, it is Dany, though I'm not sure why exactly either. But then, we know preciuos little of Rhaegar, beyond his hobbies.

 

[The Fattest Leech]

8 minutes ago, lojzelote said:

Does he excell? Sansa is supposed to write better than all of her brothers, and Arya's the one natural at math. No such claim is ever made of Jon, either by himself or anybody else. Which doesn't mean Jon is stupid, of course not, but it doesn't make him exceptionally good and neccessarily not even above average.

Anyway, the line about Jon and Robb was that the two had been constantly competing, and sometimes won the former, sometimes the latter. It doesn't say that Jon always beat Robb at everything, not even most of the time.

As for Jon's resemblance to Rhaegar, I don't really see it. They are both decent introverted guys, but so are great many other men. Anyway, if anybody is being compared to Rhaegar, it is Dany, though I'm not sure why exactly either. But then, we know preciuos little of Rhaegar, beyond his hobbies.

 

He is described as excelling. I have to make dinner now, but if you want to see my future answers to this particular topic, feel free to check out the link in my wig line. 

Plus, I don't want to derail this thread too much by making it about Jon. 

[Targaryen Restoration]

Daenerys would make the best ruler out of all the characters in the story.  She has more self-discipline than Robb and Jon.  That imbecile Sansa Stark has no business ruling anything. 

[khal drogon]

15 hours ago, Tucu said:

You don't see her huge errors as a ruler?

In Astapor:

-She kills all the ruling class and the soldiers

-She leaves a weak goverment in charge with almost no army

In Yunkai:

-"Steals" all their slaves and takes no measures to prevent a return to normality (for example taking hostages)

In Meereen:

-She executes 163 random masters, making a peaceful rule impossible

-She rejects the alliance from Astapor against Yunkai that is raising an army.

-She provides no assistance to Astapor after they are attacked by Yunkai.

-When Yunkai sieges Meereen, she signs a peace treaty, demanding children as hostages...that she would never execute.

-She abandons Meereen while the siege is still ongoing.

She is a great conqueror but as a ruler she doesn't even know the basic parts

 

The problem is you list what all the things she has done and judging by how much things went good and went bad. I see it how she has improved from Astapor to Meereen. I understand she is a ruler who don't know nothing and her learning from her mistakes and try to become better. You can call anyone a failure by listing all the things they have done and saying they have failed most of the time. But the right way to judge a person is how fast they could learn and progress. I could see that progression in her from Astapor to Meereen. Especially when the person you are seeing is a 14 year old who had no prior experience in what she is doing she is impressive. 

[khal drogon]

Why am I saying people(not all but most of them) who usually argue against Dany have a very poor understanding or sometimes ignorant about certain parts of her story arc? And I am seeing a lot of them fixating them on a few things in her arc to judge her instead of seeing everything in her arc. Normally what I see from such people is they take an event from her arc and try to explain it their own way why she did it while her entire thought process is shown to you. 

[Oracle.Clear.Rivers]

19 hours ago, Drogonthedread said:

And dany isn't.  I don't know what books you are reading if you think dnay hasn't undergone any hardships or failings ...I would say book dany is more qualified than show dany ..

I'm not dismissing Dany's experience. You're misunderstanding me. I'm aware that she's a character who had a very hard life and unlike Sansa, she didn't get to have a happy childhood. She's someone who went from a rock hard bottom kind of life as an on-the-run exiled orphan living in fear of an abusive brother to now the top of the food chain Queen Conqueror who has yet to experience absolute defeat. For someone who has been in a submissive position during a large portion of her life, that authoritative power could blind her from any consequences of her actions (which did happened in canon). She might not realize that she is now someone who is feared by others. She might not remember how it was like living in constant fear. She went from zero to hero so fast, she might forget who she once was (hunted, abused, deprived - a victim) and how integral it is to her current identity (I think this is one of the things Quaithe meant with her "Remember who you are" advise.) 

I fear for Dany because what will happen when consequences of her actions as someone with power finally caught up to her. What if she was dragged down from the top? What would she do when she lost her power even for a moment? She has yet to face the full brunt of the problems she caused and resolve it on her own. So, for me, she isn't "tested" yet and, in turn, best queen material.