Jeyne the schemer?

[Joy Hill]

Do you think there's a possibility that Jeyne was a willing participant in the honeytrap set for Robb?

Tywin says that "Robb Stark is his father's son, Jeyne Westerling her mother's daughter". Of course, it could simply mean that Jeyne managed to seduce someone of high station. Or Tywin is only assuming things.

However, on a reread something else caught my attention. During the RW, Catelyn tells Robb to save himself, if not for her for Jeyne's sake. Robb replies "Jeyne?", then "Mother, Greywind. . .". Catelyn cuts him off but this made me wonder, did Robb warg into Greywind and find out something about Jeyne? That question mark strikes me as odd.

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

Isn't Robb already dying at this point? And probably delirious.

But Jeyne's complicity is something that needs to be considered. Frankly the whole honeytrap has lots of problems, none of which we've had a POV to sort out for us. Maybe we'll learn more in TWOW.

At the very least, she had to have been, ahem, a slut sexually adventurous young woman. Highborn ladies are raised to keep their legs shut until they're betrothed to someone of their parents's choosing, but here, apparently, Jeyne's mother could rely on Jeyne and Robb to fuck if they were just left alone for a while.

[YOVMO]

21 minutes ago, Illyrio Mo'Parties said:

Isn't Robb already dying at this point? And probably delirious.

But Jeyne's complicity is something that needs to be considered. Frankly the whole honeytrap has lots of problems, none of which we've had a POV to sort out for us. Maybe we'll learn more in TWOW.

At the very least, she had to have been, ahem, a slut sexually adventurous young woman. Highborn ladies are raised to keep their legs shut until they're betrothed to someone of their parents's choosing, but here, apparently, Jeyne's mother could rely on Jeyne and Robb to fuck if they were just left alone for a while.

I have wondered about the chastity of high born ladies for a while. I mean yes, obviously, high born ladies are taught to "officially" keep their legs closed until marriage but what would have been the norm. 

Brandon Stark seems to have blooded his sword...ah hem...with quite a few people including Lady Dustin. The tyrells have a fairly open attitude towards sex. Then there is Robert...

I get the feeling that while it would be taboo for a high born girl to be less than discrete about it, surely some and maybe quite a bit of fooling around went on.

[Joy Hill]

1 hour ago, Illyrio Mo'Parties said:

Isn't Robb already dying at this point? And probably delirious.

But Jeyne's complicity is something that needs to be considered. Frankly the whole honeytrap has lots of problems, none of which we've had a POV to sort out for us. Maybe we'll learn more in TWOW.

At the very least, she had to have been, ahem, a slut sexually adventurous young woman. Highborn ladies are raised to keep their legs shut until they're betrothed to someone of their parents's choosing, but here, apparently, Jeyne's mother could rely on Jeyne and Robb to fuck if they were just left alone for a while.

Yes, that is odd. There are many possible explanations.

-Jeyne was complicit

-Jeyne and Robb were drugged

-Jeyne and Robb canoodling and then Robb marrying her was a total shock to Sybell Spicer. To try and save her family from being destroyed, she offered her collaboration to Tywin (unlikely, because Jaime muses that in the normal course of events Jeyne and her sister would not haven gotten very good marriages, but after the RW their situation is improved).

I suppose we might find out something in the Winds prologue where Jeyne will appear.

55 minutes ago, YOVMO said:

I have wondered about the chastity of high born ladies for a while. I mean yes, obviously, high born ladies are taught to "officially" keep their legs closed until marriage but what would have been the norm. 

Brandon Stark seems to have blooded his sword...ah hem...with quite a few people including Lady Dustin. The tyrells have a fairly open attitude towards sex. Then there is Robert...

I get the feeling that while it would be taboo for a high born girl to be less than discrete about it, surely some and maybe quite a bit of fooling around went on.

I think it's all about appearances.

[Adam Yozza]

No, I doubt it. Sybil made no secret about her and Rolf's involvement. Once Robb was dead Jeyne would have no reason to keep up the pretense of loving him had she been involved. Her interaction with Jaime in Feast, to me, shows that she was not involved with the RW.

[Seams]

I think Jeyne Westerling's love for Robb was sincere, even if she was "put up to it" by her mother. Even if she was consciously following her mother's orders to flirt with Robb, she probably had no idea that this young, single, high-born man already had a marriage pact.

The clues I'm trying to sort out about Jeyne and her future include a Jeyne motif that seems to be linked to Jenny characters, including Jenny of Oldstones. Two of Ramsay's dogs are named Jeyne (Red Jeyne and Grey Jeyne), which is one of the weirdest death and rebirth cycles in the books - the women Ramsay kills are his victims, but they are "reborn" as hunters / killers. Obviously, Jeyne Poole's arc becomes interesting in this light as well.

Jeyne Westerling receives a crown from Robb and she is reluctant to give it up. Her mother has to take it from her and she causes an injury to Jeyne's forehead as she removes it. So there is possible "third eye" symbolism that comes from a crown instead of a crow (pecking at the forehead).

I also believe that the Maggie the Frog heritage of the Spicer household has to be significant. Sybill Spicer has an air of magic, and maybe Jeyne will inherit that. It would not surprise me if Jeyne is the "younger, more beautiful" queen who rises up to defeat Cersei, as Maggie the Frog predicted years ago.

I am looking forward to the prologue. I would like to see Jeyne become a vindictive badass who fights back.

[Vaith]

I honestly think the whole situation was born out of chance. Robb's choice to marry Jeyne was very shocking to everyone involved, so I don't know why she would choose to seduce him, as it would just leave her "soiled" and with a chance of having a bastard. I mean, maybe there was some oddity to it - why would Jeyne attend a wounded Robb instead of the Crag's maester, for example, but I think this can be explained as Jeyne just helping the maester, as ladies sometimes did have knowledge of healing and the like.

Likewise, I think the scenario of Sybell planning with Tywin before Jeyne slept with Robb is a bit unlikely - Sybell relying on Jeyne to sleep with Robb as said above would be too big a chance and even if it happens it didn't guarantee anything. I don't see Jeyne as being inclined to reject the social code of out of wedlock sex. And I don't really buy the notion that sex in Westeros isn't a big deal for some houses: Barbrey is a bit of an exceptional character and thought she would marry Brandon eventually, Delena Florent was quietly married off to the Florents' bannerman even though the man who "soiled" her was the king, the Tyrells had to perpetuate the notion that Margaery didn't have sex when married, etc.

I think the most likely scenario was that the Jeyne slept with Robb, he agreed to marry her. Sybell then wrote to Tywin asking what she should do because she didn't want the Westerlings to suffer the same fate as the Reynes and he told her to use the moon tea.

I also think on a storytelling level it works better for this to be Robb's conscious choice rather than it being all a grand scheme of Tywin.

I think using the RW scene as evidence is a bit much. He was already dying and I only read the line as saying the name of his queen that he loved before he died.

Honestly though after her scene with Jaime in Feast I don't know how anyone can think she was involved. She has no reason to lie or keep up the appearance of a Stark loyalist to him - and even if she loved Robb, the smart thing to do in that scenario would be to quietly accept defeat - but she openly defies her mother in front of Jaime of all people.

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

5 hours ago, Joy Hill said:

Jeyne and Robb canoodling and then Robb marrying her was a total shock to Sybell Spicer. To try and save her family from being destroyed, she offered her collaboration to Tywin (unlikely, because Jaime muses that in the normal course of events Jeyne and her sister would not haven gotten very good marriages, but after the RW their situation is improved).

Could Jeyne even get married without the knowledge and permission of her parents?

And even if she did, this runs into the logistical problems I mentioned earlier. How did Sybell communicate with Tywin, how did she set up this very complicated scheme so quickly, etc.

(I read recently that perhaps the idea was hatched before Robb even laid siege to the Crag, which might solve some of the logistical problems, although it raises some fresh ones.)

5 hours ago, Adam Yozza said:

Once Robb was dead Jeyne would have no reason to keep up the pretense of loving him had she been involved.

Perhaps she fell in love with him later on. Or perhaps she's just clever enough to realise she ought to play the innocent. Tywin's line about her being her mother's daughter certainly implies that she's a bit crafty.

[YOVMO]

5 hours ago, Seams said:

I think Jeyne Westerling's love for Robb was sincere, even if she was "put up to it" by her mother. Even if she was consciously following her mother's orders to flirt with Robb, she probably had no idea that this young, single, high-born man already had a marriage pact.

The clues I'm trying to sort out about Jeyne and her future include a Jeyne motif that seems to be linked to Jenny characters, including Jenny of Oldstones. Two of Ramsay's dogs are named Jeyne (Red Jeyne and Grey Jeyne), which is one of the weirdest death and rebirth cycles in the books - the women Ramsay kills are his victims, but they are "reborn" as hunters / killers. Obviously, Jeyne Poole's arc becomes interesting in this light as well.

Jeyne Westerling receives a crown from Robb and she is reluctant to give it up. Her mother has to take it from her and she causes an injury to Jeyne's forehead as she removes it. So there is possible "third eye" symbolism that comes from a crown instead of a crow (pecking at the forehead).

I also believe that the Maggie the Frog heritage of the Spicer household has to be significant. Sybill Spicer has an air of magic, and maybe Jeyne will inherit that. It would not surprise me if Jeyne is the "younger, more beautiful" queen who rises up to defeat Cersei, as Maggie the Frog predicted years ago.

I am looking forward to the prologue. I would like to see Jeyne become a vindictive badass who fights back.

This would be an excellent topic. Don't leave out Jeyne Marbrand, Tytos Lannister's wife and Emmon Frey's Goodmother through Genna.

Also, keep in mind the very interesting name that is "Jane" Our Modern Jane is a new version of Jehanne which is the feminine of Johann (which might attach itself to the Faust myth through Goethe) and if you date it back it goes to the hebrew name Yochananan which means god is merciful -- given the hunting dog rebirth cycle, the tragedy of Jeyne Poole and what becomes of Jeyne Westerling the fact that there name is a derivative from the idea that God is Merciful and is also the feminine of the man who wrote Faust might be interesting

 

PS: I know the faust is a super long shot, but grand a man at work his little distractions

[Roose on the Loose]

I don't know if Jeyne was in on it, but Sybell definitely plotted with Tywin before Rob came to visit.

1. Sybell does love potions, as Tywin points out.
2. Without prior approval from Tywin, the Westerlings' actions would earn them the same fate as the Reynes.
3. As it happened, they get the Reynes' lands as a reward.  Tyrion was amazed.
4. This failure by Robb is one of many examples of how Robb and Ned think war and politics only happens on the battlefield. But there's a whole other war off the field.  Tywin sez: Some wars are won with ravens.

[Adam Yozza]

4 hours ago, Illyrio Mo'Parties said:

Perhaps she fell in love with him later on. Or perhaps she's just clever enough to realise she ought to play the innocent. Tywin's line about her being her mother's daughter certainly implies that she's a bit crafty.

Why would she 'ought' to play innocent. After Jaime takes Riverrun she's back in Lannister hands and no longer needs to pretend she had nothing to do with it, yet she still defies her mother and Jaime both in Feast. How does that benefit her more in the long run than coming clean? Answer: it doesn't. Openly stating that she was in on it earns marks her as a Lannister ally, denying it and claiming to be loyal to Robb even after his death and the defeat of all his supporters makes her a threat to the Lannister's. Therefore the only reason I can think of for her to "play innocent", as you put it, is that she is in fact innocent.

[Jon Fossoway]

 

The Spicers are using the Westerlings to gain prestige and power. There is certainly an element of 'witchcraft' they bring and that could (and most possibly did) play a part in the marriage of Robb and Jeyne, but I think the Westerling children are innocent and / or manipulated. It is curious and a little cartoonish that Sybell gets to use his children, putting them in danger, to achieve power, but it makes sense.

I see a parallel to what happens with the Frey and the Tully. In this case, the Frey eventually supplanted their feudal lords. But both families, Frey and Spicer, are looked down upon and are relatively wealthy. On the other hand, the Spicer did not have a settlement until they were given Castamere, so there is ground to assume that they were vassals of the Westerling, and have worked actively to "infiltrate" their ranks through marriages. It is a kind of parasitism that was crowned with the definitive leap: the obtaining of Castamere. For Sybell, that an injured Robb has decided to spend the night in her castle was an unrepeatable opportunity.

Finally, no: I do not think Jeyne has taken a deliberate part in her mother's manipulations. That he did fall in love with Robb (under the effect of alcohol errh ... "potion of love") and that he lied and did not drink the moon tea could have been a decision of a headstrong young woman with a broken heart with the intention of Retain "something" of her beloved. Or some similar mumbo jumbo.

[Colonel Green]

13 hours ago, YOVMO said:

The tyrells have a fairly open attitude towards sex.

No, they don't.

6 hours ago, Illyrio Mo'Parties said:

Could Jeyne even get married without the knowledge and permission of her parents?

Could she get married?  Yes.  Did she, probably not.

The whole setup with the Westerlings is really confusing, and probably not likely to ever be clarified.  The idea that Tywin and Sybel arranged the whole thing in advance feels absurdly contrived, but it's also hard to see how this could have been set up after Robb and co. seized the castle.  But Jeyne's appearances in AFFC make it very clear she wasn't in on the scheme.  There's no reason for her to be professing love and loyalty to Robb and that point if it's not genuine.

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

8 hours ago, Adam Yozza said:

Why would she 'ought' to play innocent. After Jaime takes Riverrun she's back in Lannister hands and no longer needs to pretend she had nothing to do with it, yet she still defies her mother and Jaime both in Feast. How does that benefit her more in the long run than coming clean? Answer: it doesn't. Openly stating that she was in on it earns marks her as a Lannister ally, denying it and claiming to be loyal to Robb even after his death and the defeat of all his supporters makes her a threat to the Lannister's. Therefore the only reason I can think of for her to "play innocent", as you put it, is that she is in fact innocent.

Tywin is also smart enough to pretend he had nothing to do with it. It's a massive taboo-busting betrayal, people will look down on those who participated, even if they're politically on side. Plus, Tywin's dead by that point, and Freys are getting hanged left and right - maybe she's hedging her bets.

And why she does it in front of Jaime and her mother, well, a good liar keeps up the lie all the time. She doesn't know Jaime, why should she trust him? And given Robb's dead, what penalty is there for the appearance of loyalty really? Especially when everybody will just write it off as young love.

I dunno, I'm just saying it's possible. You ought to at least consider it.

[Adam Yozza]

8 hours ago, Illyrio Mo'Parties said:

Tywin is also smart enough to pretend he had nothing to do with it. It's a massive taboo-busting betrayal, people will look down on those who participated, even if they're politically on side. Plus, Tywin's dead by that point, and Freys are getting hanged left and right - maybe she's hedging her bets.

And why she does it in front of Jaime and her mother, well, a good liar keeps up the lie all the time. She doesn't know Jaime, why should she trust him? And given Robb's dead, what penalty is there for the appearance of loyalty really? Especially when everybody will just write it off as young love.

I dunno, I'm just saying it's possible. You ought to at least consider it.

I did consider it, for a fair amount of time. After the RW I was suspicious of all the Westerlings. However after re-read's and looking over the evidence I came to the conclusion that none of the Westerling children had any knowledge of what was to occur. Perhaps even Gawen had nothing to do with it.

While her acting so as to hedge her bets is possible, I personally just find it unlikely. Her reactions seemed too genuine for me to believe she had anything to do with it, besides which it is only Rolf and Sybil that sets Grey Wind on edge not Jeyne, Raynald, Rollam or Elena.

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

19 minutes ago, Adam Yozza said:

...besides which it is only Rolf and Sybil that sets Grey Wind on edge not Jeyne, Raynald, Rollam or Elena.

Is it? Good point.

[Protagoras]

Highborn ladies are supposed to only keep their legs shut when the parents disprove, not when they approve. And I somehow get the picture that while sex isn´t something that is officially approved, flirtation and admiring men for their masculinity certainly is. To act like a lady means to be socially active after all, not being a silent ornament. The sex was obviously a bonus, but the idea that highborn maids outside Dorne are not sexually adventurous as been disproven again and again (At least two Freys in different eras, Lord Rowans daugher, the handmaid for Margaery that needed moon tea (most likely) etc - and these are the people we know of). They are after all raised in a chivalry mythos with no christianity in a culture focused on breeding. 

Jeyne was most likely told something like "He might be your future husband, make a good impression, make him want you. You are very pretty after all and deserve a good catch" and acted thereafter. Sybill most likely then contacted Tywin. After all, if Tywin refuses the whole Castamere-suggestion, then a life in the North might not be a bad idea. The Crag is declining anyway and Robb most likely would have given them land and castle, far away from an angry Tywin. 

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

11 minutes ago, Protagoras said:

Highborn ladies are supposed to only keep their legs shut when the parents disprove, not when they approve. And I somehow get the picture that while sex isn´t something that is officially approved, flirtation and admiring men for their masculinity certainly is. To act like a lady means to be socially active after all, not being a silent ornament. The sex was obviously a bonus, but the idea that highborn maids outside Dorne are not sexually adventurous as been disproven again and again (At least two Freys in different eras, Lord Rowans daugher, the handmaid for Margaery that needed moon tea (most likely) etc - and these are the people we know of). They are after all raised in a chivalry mythos with no christianity in a culture focused on breeding. 

Jeyne was most likely told something like "He might be your future husband, make a good impression, make him want you. You are very pretty after all and deserve a good catch" and acted thereafter. Sybill most likely then contacted Tywin. After all, if Tywin refuses the whole Castamere-suggestion, then a life in the North might not be a bad idea. The Crag is declining anyway and Robb most likely would have given them land and castle, far away from an angry Tywin. 

1. Are you talking about Gatehouse Ami, the "slut" whose marriage value dropped precipitously because?

2. He'd bloody have to, look at a map: it was always a tall order for Robb to be able to defend the Riverlands, especially the parts south of the Trident. Defending the Crag is an impossibility. He can't possibly have expected for them to be able to retain it.

[Adam Yozza]

9 minutes ago, Illyrio Mo'Parties said:

2. He'd bloody have to, look at a map: it was always a tall order for Robb to be able to defend the Riverlands, especially the parts south of the Trident. Defending the Crag is an impossibility. He can't possibly have expected for them to be able to retain it.

He didn't. I can't be bothered looking for the quote right now (it's been a long day) but in Storm it's mentioned that the Westerling's had all but abandoned the Crag after joining Robb. Maybe if a peace was reached that could have been one of his demands but the Crag would never be safe and it couldn't be held during wartime.

[The Twinslayer]

On ‎1‎/‎4‎/‎2017 at 5:15 AM, YOVMO said:

I have wondered about the chastity of high born ladies for a while. I mean yes, obviously, high born ladies are taught to "officially" keep their legs closed until marriage but what would have been the norm. 

Brandon Stark seems to have blooded his sword...ah hem...with quite a few people including Lady Dustin. The tyrells have a fairly open attitude towards sex. Then there is Robert...

I get the feeling that while it would be taboo for a high born girl to be less than discrete about it, surely some and maybe quite a bit of fooling around went on.

Chastity of highborn ladies in Westeros is a myth.  Here is a complete list of highborn ladies who are known to have slept only with their husbands:  Catelyn Tully.

Here is a partial list of highborn ladies who are known to have slept with men to whom they were neither betrothed nor married.

Lysa Tully, Cersei Lannister, Asha Greyjoy, Jeyne Westerling, Arianne Martell, Daena Targaryen, Melissa Blackwood, the three daughters of Lord Butterwell, Barbra Bracken, Barbry Ryswell, Danaerys Targaryen, Ami Frey, Delena Florent.

Here is a partial list of highborn ladies who are suspected of having slept with men to whom they were neither betrothed nor married. 

Naerys Targaryen, Margaery Tyrell, Ashara Dayne, Maege Mormont, Rhaenyra Targaryen, Johanna Lannister, Rhaenys Targaryen.   

There is also evidence that virginity at marriage was not that highly prized.  Walder Frey tried to arrange a marriage for Edmure through Hoster Tully, offering "young ones, old ones, virgins, widows, whatever he wanted."  Jon Arryn married Lysa knowing she had had a lover.  Lady Hornwood was a widow who had many suitors and Lady Rohanne and Princess Rhaenyra married multiple times.  Mace Tyrell agreed to marry a son to Cersei after Robert died.