The Grey Wolf

Discussion Thread for All Things Fire & Blood

51 posts in this topic

Like the title says this thread will be about any and all speculations concerning Fire & Blood.

Personally, I'd like to focus on these four topics but you are by no means limited to them:

1. What new information will we or might we get?

2. What will be the length of each section?

3. Which sections will feature multiple conflicting sources and which will not?

4. Gyldayn's history only reaches up until the end of Aegon V's reign, which begs the question of how are the reigns of Jaehaerys II and Aerys II going to be included?

And so without further ado I'll start things off. Warning: Long post ahead.

Targaryens Pre-Doom: I imagine we might potentially learn a little bit about Valyrian society, where the Targaryens fit in tier-wise amongst the dragonlords, the names of some of the more famous Targaryen dragonlords and potentially the names of some of the other Valyrian dragonlord families. Length-wise I expect that if we get this section at all it will be very brief and won't feature conflicting sources.

Targaryens on Dragonstone: Here I believe we may get a comprehensive family tree detailing Aenar the Exile's whole family, what exactly made Gaemon "the Glorious", what did the Targaryens looking east rather than west prior to Aegon the Conqueror mean and whether or not they were directly involved in the Century of Blood apart from Aegon the Conqueror. I expect this part to be rather small length-wise and maybe to feature conflicting sources or at least Gyldayn having to sift through what is true history and just stuff the singers made up that has nonetheless seeped into the popular conscience of Westeros.

Targaryen Kings (AKA the longest part):

Note-In addition to what's below I also believe that Fire & Blood will give us more on where the idea of the Great Council came from, the various Vulture Kings that rose against the Targaryens and (finally!) what exactly happened with Grand Maester Hareth. Also, we can hope for an explanation of the surname Baratheon but I don't think that's likely.

Aegon I: Full account of the First Dornish War, the development of the factionalism between the line of Rhaenys and the line of Visenya, Aegon's relationships with his new Lords Paramount, and the early life of his sons seem to me the major new things to expect. Length-wise I actually suspect this will be one of the shorter ones and will not feature any conflicting sources.

Aenys I: I expect we will get a full account of the short Second Dornish War (Note-I'm basing this off the fact that we have blank spots for two years of Aenys's reign and Gyldayn's account of Aegon's Conquest mentions that attempts to incorporate Dorne continued all throughout the reigns of Aegon and his sons), a bit on the relationship between Aenys and Maegor, a bit on Maegor's tenure as Hand, and possibly Maegor's eulogy for his father. I expect this section to be rather small and after some discussion with @Lord Varys it is clear to me that "The Sons of the Dragon" will not feature conflicting sources but letters, decrees, and other legal documents could make for interesting inserts.

Maegor I: A full account of the Faith Militant Uprising, including descriptions of all the major battles such as the extended versions of the Battle of Stonebridge and the Battle of the Great Fork of the Blackwater that were cut from TWOIAF, a full account of the short-lived rebellion of Aegon, son of Aenys, how he acquired his father's dragon, how he and Rhaena escaped Crakehall, how Tyanna found Rhaena on Fair Isle, what impact did the death of Visenya have on Maegor's reign as well as the man himself, how did Tyanna run afoul of Maegor's wrath, the names of the other participants in the Trial by Seven, the Third Dornish War, the third Grand Maester killed by Maegor, and finally the events that cause Maegor's descent into madness and becoming a broken man by the end of his reign. I expect this section to be in the middle with regards to length and will not feature conflicting sources.

Jaehaerys I: I expect here we will learn what the First Quarrel was about, about the lives of his children, and how the Faith Militant Uprising came to an end under his reign (Given that the conflict was resolved only after Barth was made Hand that means it must have continued in some fashion for the early part of his reign). It may sound strange but I actually expect this part to be one of the shortest ones given that it is a time of peace and unlike the court of his successor I doubt Jaehaerys I would have been blind or tolerant of intrigue and factionalism within his court so there probably isn't much more than what we got in TWOIAF that would be interesting to know. As to whether our sources on his reign will conflict with one another I'm ambivalent seeing as GRRM could go either way.

Viserys I: I honestly don't think we're getting much more on Viserys I's reign than what we already have. Length-wise I expect the full text to be rather succinct and for this one we do have conflicting sources, namely Septon Eustace and Mushroom via TRP.

Aegon II: The first big one. A full account of the Dance, which will fill in a lot of the gaps and hopefully make some of the problems with the Dance less glaring. Some important things we probably will learn: What battles did the 10000 men from the Vale fight, what did the Redwyne fleet do, what were the other Westerlands victories under Ser Adrian Tarbeck and Lord Lefford, what happened at the Battle of the Burning Mill, the Battle of the Red Fork, and the Battle of the Kingsroad, where does Ser Byron Swann fit in all this, what were the other naval battles apart from the Gullet given that it says more than one battle was fought at sea, assuming the Ironborn don't count, and finally what happened to Simon Strong as well as his offspring. Lengthwise this is definitely going to be one of the longest pieces if not the longest given that all the other wars only last a year. Also, here Gyldayn gets his first real work-out as a historian as he has to sift through no less than three accounts from Mushroom, Grand Maester Orwyle, and Septon Eustace (who we know has a Green bias).

Aegon III: Here we are getting a full account of the regency but on top of that I think we can expect more on the nine mages' debacle, the Daeron the Daring imposters, how the four dragons that survived the Dance died, the fates of Nettles as well as Alys Rivers, as well as what enemies Aegon III made (given that his food-taster died of poison that Yandel says might have been meant for him that implies someone wanted Aegon dead). I expect this piece, on account of the regency, to be of medium length and to continue to feature conflicting sources.

Daeron I: A full account of the Conquest of Dorne and the Dornish rebellion four years later following Lord Lyonel Tyrell's murder. Maybe a detail or two about what Daeron actually did when not warring or writing given that Yandel says he "ruled ably and capably". Also, we may get a canon explanation for why he never married. I expect this to be of medium length and not to feature conflicting sources all that much since Daeron's own account is in-universe acknowledged as the best text on the Conquest of Dorne though it is within the realm of possibility I think that we might get some Dornish accounts that contradict what Daeron wrote, which Gyldayn would not have failed to notice.

Baelor I: I don't think we're getting much new here apart from maybe more about Baelor's personality before the snake-pit thing and the construction of the Great Sept of King's Landing. I expect this part to be short and maybe feature conflicting sources in the form of pro-Baelor writing from say Septons and other pious nobles on the one side and pro-Viserys writing from other nobles and the Maesters on the other. We do know for example that Maia Stokeworth started the rumor that Viserys poisoned Baelor though not why. Maybe something to do with Falena?

Viserys II: I don't think we're getting much else given he ruled only for a year. Maybe more on his reforms and long-term plans? Daena the Defiant's fate? I'm not really sure but GRRM could always surprise us. Still, for now I am of the opinion that Viserys II will be one of the smaller (if not the smallest) sections and that his reign will not feature conflicting sources.

Aegon IV: I'm not sure what more about his reign we might learn about except maybe that his debacle of a war in 174 AC wasn't his only attempt to reconquer Dorne and how his descent into full-blown hedonism was gradual, starting as it did with "small acts of pleasure" as Yandel puts it. All in all, I expect Aegon IV's reign to be of medium length but leaning towards the short side and not to feature conflicting sources.

Daeron II: The second big one. I imagine we are going to learn A LOT that we didn't know before. First off I think we are going to get much deeper insight into the various relationships between Daeron, his family, and the Great Bastards in the years leading up to the First Blackfyre Rebellion, nothing less than a full account of which I expect we will also be getting. Beyond that what the Blackfyres were doing in exile before they formed the Golden Company and a family tree to go with that might be a possibility as well. Oh, and whether or not Daeron II enacted any reforms or encouraged trade a la his grandfather. This section I imagine after Aegon II to be one of the largest and to heavily feature conflicting sources in the form of pro-Red, pro-Black writing.

Aerys I: I imagine we will get a full account of the Third Blackfyre Rebellion, learn about how Dagon Greyjoy met his end, why Maekar didn't jail Bloodraven, and who were the Rat, the Hawk, and the Pig. As a result I expect Aerys I's section to be of medium length with again conflicting pro-Red, pro-Black sources.

Maekar I: Here I think we'll get more on the fall of the Lothstons, the factions of the royal court (given that he summoned all his sons to King's Landing upon his ascension), how Maekar dealt with Blackfyre sympathies in the wake of the Third Blackfyre Rebellion, the Peake Uprising and the Great Council that followed it. I expect Maekar's reign to be of medium length but leaning towards the short side and to maybe feature conflicting sources but to a much lesser degree than the reigns of his brother and father.

Aegon V: Here I think we will learn what exactly were the reforms Aegon tried to enact, who were the most-outspoken of those against him that called him "a bloody-handed tyrant", what were the various rebellions he had to put down, including Lyonel Baratheon's brief war for Stormlands independence and the army of the Rat, the Hawk, and Pig, not to mention a full account of the brief Fourth Blackfyre Rebellion but NOT Summerhall. Overall, I expect this section to be one of the larger ones, similar to Daeron II in length and to not feature conflicting sources given Aegon V didn't rule all that long ago unless there was a lot of historiographical confusion on account of the lords sponsoring a ton of anti-Aegon V material. 

Jaehaerys II: I don't know how the reigns of him and his son are going to be included but assuming they are all I think we can realistically expect to get is learn how Jaehaerys II reconciled the lords while keeping what few of his father's reforms that survived, learn how the male line of the Blackfyres got reduced to Maelys, and a full account of the War of the Ninepenny Kings/Fifth Blackfyre Rebellion. I expect this part, if it is even included, will be of medium length simply because of the war and that it will not feature conflicting sources.

Aerys II: I honestly don't think we're going to get much more on the reign of the Mad King, at most I see us getting a comprehensive account of Robert's Rebellion that brings together all the information from the books given that GRRM has stated that by the end of the series we will know everything there is to know about Robert's Rebellion.

And for now that's a wrap! 

Edited by The Grey Wolf

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Five more things I thought of that we might get in Fire & Blood that might be interesting to speculate on:

1. More information on the Targareyn queens such as Mariah Martell, Betha Blackwood, and Shaera Targaryen as well as lesser-ranking ladies like Jena Dondarrion and Alys Arryn, not to mention the members of the court in each reign, which should be interesting since we know in the early days the Velaryons, Baratheons, Tullys, Arryns, and Hightowers had the most influence, with the Tullys and Baratheons declining in that regard after the Dance.

2. Noble houses that no longer exist as of AGOT such as possibly house Belgrave, which given that a member became one of Aegon II's Kingsguard probably means they were far from insignificant.

3. How certain houses rose and fell in power. For example houses Peake, Osgrey, and Velaryon were all once a lot stronger than they are now not to mention we don't know who got Whitegrove and Dustonbury for example after the First Blackfyre Rebellion.

4. All the members of the Kingsguard and the small council from 0-283 AC. For example I'm almost certainly sure that Ser Orivel the Open-Handed was the Kingsguard knight who threw down his sword and yielded when Daeron I was murdered in Dorne alongside three other members of the Kingsguard. Also, I think Gyles Greycloak was either Ser Gyles Belgrave, who was one of those accused of poisoning Aegon II, or a Kingsguard who sided with the Blackfyres at some point and that Long Tom Costayne joined the order during the reign of Maegor I, Jaehaerys I, or Baelor I though I'm not sure which makes most sense.

5. The 9 lesser claimants at the Great Council of 101 AC as well as the identity of the Sea Snake's mother. On the former I can think of only the following possibilities: Bastard descendants of Aenys I, Prince Aemon, Prince Baelon, Prince Vaegon and/or descendants of Rhaena, Rhalla, and Aerea Targaryen.

Anyway, anyone else want to contribute? 

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I don't have any particulars (great job on that breakdown, btw! It makes me want to read grrmarillion even more!) but I would like to drop my ultimate tinfoil on the Fire and Blood reveals:

Spoiler

That almost everything that the Targaryen's have done that seems mad or despicable has been done because of Dany the Dreamers prophetic vision controlling the destiny and sometimes breaking the minds of her blood for centuries. For example, I think we will find that Aegon the Unworthy's philandering had less to do with lust and more with trying to produce some very specific results beyond his carnal gratification and that the Mad King's madness and increasing distaste for his former friend and Hand was because he saw Tywin's eventual betrayal and was unable to reconcile it with his present.

 

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1 hour ago, hiemal said:

Text

Thanks! It was fun to compile. Btw, I just thought of something. Does anyone think Ser Rolland Darklyn might have been Kingsguard for Daeron I? It would explain how he was knighted on the battlefield and then died an hour later defending his king.

Edited by The Grey Wolf

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42 minutes ago, The Grey Wolf said:

Thanks! It was fun to compile. Btw, I just thought of something. Does anyone think Ser Rolland Darklyn might have been Kingsguard for Daeron I? It would explain how he was knighted on the battlefield and then died an hour later defending his king.

That would make sense. I wonder to what extent Fire and Blood will also reveal the full and secret history of the King's Guard?

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Just now, hiemal said:

Text

I imagine that since the Targaryens invented the Kingsguard we'll get a comprehensive account of the latter with the former. At the very least the names of all the order's members and under whom they served. Not sure there is any secret history to be found though. As far as I know the only secret history currently confirmed for Fire & Blood is the whole confusion surrounding Grand Maester Gerardys-Orwyle.

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Another thing I just thought of. Does anyone here think in the account on the regency of Aegon III we might get a complete list of all twenty-two men arrested by Cregan Stark for the poisoning of Aegon II? Currently, we know only three of them: Lord Corlys Velaryon, Lord Larys Strong, and Ser Gyles Belgrave.

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Excellent thoughts & thread!

On 1/17/2017 at 4:04 PM, The Grey Wolf said:

Does anyone think Ser Rolland Darklyn might have been Kingsguard for Daeron I? It would explain how he was knighted on the battlefield and then died an hour later defending his king.

Well, the MUSH seems to have the three who died with Daeron at the parley & maybe the one who threw down his sword (Cordwayner). He's not mentioned on the House Darklyn page. Nevertheless, even if those 3-4 all end up not only being full-canon KG for Daeron, but also fighting through the whole war to only die at the end; Rolland is most likely to have been a KG for Daeron. What are the other possibilities?

  • Aegon I lost two who died defending him (one likely being Ser Corlys as Ser Addison succeeded him as LC), but AFAWK he only fought on Balerion during the last couple years of the First Dornish War & there's no other known conflicts he was involved with afterwards. He's likely out.
  • Maegor could be, he certainly did enough warring, though he too did most of his fighting on dragonback & a KG who died for him may not be looked upon so fondly than others under other kings. He's possibly out.
  • Aegon II has a couple of unknown spots, however his only battle was getting rekt by Rhaenys & Meleys at Rook's Rest. So he's out.
  • Aegon III did have the Daeron the Daring pretenders, but he's not likely to have led any of the (short) campaigns against them. Viserys perhaps, but he of course wasn't the king yet. So Aegon's likely out.
  • Maekar was possibly involved in the bringing down of the Lothstons, though we can't know for sure until a later D&E perhaps. And he had a peaceful reign (though that could easily be comparative to Aerys & Egg's), so the Peake Uprising was likely the only (other) conflict he saw. He probably died early during the Storming of Starpike given the nature of his death, so unless there was some earlier battle/s during the campaign say at Whitegrove or Dunstonbury ...
  • Egg's a possibility with the Fourth Blackfyre Rebellion, but it's likely that the Battle of Wendwater Bridge was the only one of the war he fought in (& perhaps the only battle of the war, anyway). He may have led say one of the three royal armies he had to sent into the Westerlands to clout ears, but again, a future D&E. I'd say he & his father are possibly out, & unless there's unknown conflicts like say a Dornish War during Jaehaerys' reign (who'd presumably be on Vermithor anyway even if he was involved), then that's it.

Daeron I it probably is.

On 1/17/2017 at 4:54 PM, The Grey Wolf said:

As far as I know the only secret history currently confirmed for Fire & Blood is the whole confusion surrounding Grand Maester Gerardys-Orwyle.

I thought that was already settled?

8 hours ago, The Grey Wolf said:

Another thing I just thought of. Does anyone here think in the account on the regency of Aegon III we might get a complete list of all twenty-two men arrested by Cregan Stark for the poisoning of Aegon II? Currently, we know only three of them: Lord Corlys Velaryon, Lord Larys Strong, and Ser Gyles Belgrave.

Surely we will. There was also Ser Perkin "the Flea", whose squire was Trystane Truefyre, & was the first of them to appeal to Cregan to allow him to take the black. A fair chance also the rest of his Small Council, though we don't who they were or indeed if he replaced Wylde or Cole (presumably Tyland had already been sent across the Narrow Sea for sellswords). Perhaps a few servants. Other lords & knights of his court & household likely ...

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On 1/16/2017 at 6:39 AM, The Grey Wolf said:

Gyldayn's history only reaches up until the end of Aegon V's reign, which begs the question of how are the reigns of Jaehaerys II and Aerys II going to be included?

I think The World of Ice & Fire has already told us how Fire & Blood will be authored - primarily written by Gyldayn, effectively presented by Yandel (for Aegon &/or Dany?). Perhaps some more varied/Easter egg sources compiled or used by Yandel, of course still with royal focus:

  • Cressen (more on Steffon & Cassana), Marwyn (I like the theory he was the previous maester on Dragonstone, & was a source in TWoIaF anyway);
  • Kym (Tullys, could give us some more on Celia), Walys (Starks), Eyrie's maester (Jon Arryn is fascinating);
  • Iron Bank envoy (267AC dispute), Aerys' High Septon/head of the Starry Sept/head of the Faith in Stoney Sept (perhaps pleased with his "piety" before Viserys' birth, but then appalled with his deeply impious trials with wildfire as his champion), Duskendale's maester (for obvious reasons);
  • Sunspear's maester (unnamed Prince of Dorne! - hopefully Arianne's PoVs will flesh her out more though), Casterly Rock's maester (Joanna, etc);
  • And/or Walgrave (obviously would have some interesting things to tell he can't anymore, taught Yandel how to read).

I'd also like to know more about ...

Rhaella:

  • Her standing up against Aerys about making her own ladies his mistresses, what Houses were her ladies from?
  • What was her relationships with Rhaegar & Viserys like, what was her influences on them (stuff we could puzzle out from the text at least anyway).
  • Was Aerys right - from his PoV anyway - to mistrust her in regards to also to Tywin & Rhaegar? (Varys lists her with them as to part-wise why he was hired).

Shaera:

  • How did her life play out after she married Jaehaerys? Did she favour her mother or father in her looks? Did she outlive her brother-husband?
  • How did Summerhall affect her? How did she fit into the family & court dynamics - what did she think of them?
  • What was her marriage with Jaehaerys like? What influences did she have on Aerys, Rhaella, & perhaps even a younger Rhaegar?

Rhaelle:

  • I suspect she died at Summerhall if perhaps not already deceased (she did only have Steffon & GRRM is quite liberal with pregnancy & childbirth killing his female characters), but was she resentful she didn't get to choose her partners like her siblings or was it not a problem for her?
  • What was her marriage to Ormund like? Did she thrive at Storm's End or did she feel isolated from the royal court & her family?

Jaehaerys:

  • More on his younger days & relationships with his siblings, parents, uncles, aunts, cousins, etc. Was he Prince of Summerhall before Duncan's abdication?
  • What did he think of his father's policies & how much was he involved with them as Prince of Dragonstone? What was his relationships like with his children?

His reign:

  • Fallout from & more details about (if say GRRM just merges later D&E into Fire & Blood) Summerhall.
  • What reforms of Egg's Jaehaerys dropped & did he have to do it to get the lords on side for the Wot9pK? More on the war itself from Maester Eon's Account of the Wot9pK, though a Daeron I-esque version written by Aerys himself would be awesome too. Did Quellon in receive any benefits from court for his help?
  • Who were the older & more seasoned men of Jaehaerys' court? (Many of whom he inherited from Egg)
  • What happened to Dalbridge - did he go to the Wall voluntarily after Jaehaerys' death? Was he sent there by Aerys? Scapegoat/blame for his father's death? Was he perhaps even sent there as part of the unwinding of Egg's smallfolk reforms - a peasant squiring for a king - such an embodiment of them?

Aerys:

  • His mistresses - how many, & who, highborn? Who was the mistress & her family (I'm leaning towards her being highborn & her House part of the court) he had tortured & executed "over" baby Jaehaerys' death?
  • His marriage & relationship with Rhaella, from start to end? Did they find any kind of solace in each other after Summerhall, or was it something that always came between them/haunting them?
  • His earlier relationship with Rhaegar. Did he see his young son as a disappointment, particularly as he had to marry Rhaella (neither of them wanted to be matched) & Rhaegar was perhaps meant to be TPtwP? Was he proud of him during his early & mid teens, becoming martially proficient so fast? When did the suspicions about that Rhaegar wanted to replace him begin?

His reign:

  • More on his "grand plans" & the reactions to them, the Myr-Tyrosh vs Volantis trade war (what was Lys doing? Was it some kind of after-effect from the Band of Nine?), & perhaps more on domestic & foreign policies (especially of his own actual input).
  • The Blackwood-Bracken land dispute - is this the one Hoster was also involved with? Was there any backlash from Aerys' (distant) cousins? Does this help to explain why the Brackens still have so much land north of the Red Fork?
  • Everything there is to know about the Kingswood Brotherhood (formed by defeated Blackfyre loyalists from the Wot9pK who came home anyway?), & then the campaign to defeat them. More about the rival courts of Aerys' in KL & Rhaegar's on Dragonstone.

Tywin:

  • What did the other Lord Paramounts especially think of Tywin's "handling" of the Reyne-Tarbeck Rebellion & then becoming Aerys' Hand?
  • Did Velaryon, Staunton, Merryweather, Chelsted, etc only sour against him over time, as Aerys himself did, or were they always not close/good with him?
  • Was he really such a brilliant Hand (I'm a bit skeptical) or were Pycelle & Yandel over-selling him in The World of Ice & Fire?
  • What other pro-Lannister appointments beside Tygett did Aerys refuse him? Did he allow Barristan his suicide-rescue mission at Duskendale thinking he would fail & Tywin himself could name a KG loyal to himself instead of the Crown?

As a wider continuation throughout each of the Targaryen kings making up the dynasty, far more details on things like their Kingsguard, their Small Council, etc.

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On 15.1.2017 at 8:39 PM, The Grey Wolf said:

3. Which sections will feature multiple conflicting sources and which will not?

I think we should sort of define that first. With the Dance and the reign of Viserys I we have various properly identified version that conflict on occasion but not all that much. There are conflicting accounts on the death of Lyman Beesbury or the sex scandal involving Rhaenyra and Daemon shortly before her marriage, but it is not that we get conflicting sources on major historical events like births, deaths, wars, and the like.

In that sense I think all we can expect is getting more complete picture of the reigns, the kings, their families, and their courts but not so much this kind of 'historical propaganda war' a lot of people seem to expect. Yandel himself proves that historians suck up to the people that are in power right now. We can thus expect some the contemporary sources to be biased and all, but not so many people later writing the first historical accounts about, say, the Conquest or the Dance. It would be past events and many/all people would already be dead at that time.

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4. Gyldayn's history only reaches up until the end of Aegon V's reign, which begs the question of how are the reigns of Jaehaerys II and Aerys II going to be included?

Considering that the book is supposed to come after the series is finished we could get an addendum by an aged Yandel (who might be the guy to edit Gyldayn's history) covering not only the reigns of Jaehaerys II and Aerys II in more detail than in TWoIaF but also the Baratheon interregnum (now for a less biased perspective), the chaos that followed it, the War for the Dawn, and then the reign of Daenerys I and her king consort (whoever he is going to be, possibly Jon), possibly even giving us a glimpse of the reign of the monarch after her (possible if Yandel would be editing this book in his nineties or so).

I really want to read an appendix on the fate of all the children characters. I want to know what an adult or old Arya and Sansa were like, and what they did, and I also want whether Dany, Jon, and Tyrion (if they all survive) will make a good or bad job at rebuilding the Realm and whether they will produce children who will continue their work or brats who going to ruin everything again.

'Fire and Blood' could give us a glimpse of the future as well as flashing out the past.

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And so without further ado I'll start things off. Warning: Long post ahead.

Targaryens Pre-Doom: I imagine we might potentially learn a little bit about Valyrian society, where the Targaryens fit in tier-wise amongst the dragonlords, the names of some of the more famous Targaryen dragonlords and potentially the names of some of the other Valyrian dragonlord families. Length-wise I expect that if we get this section at all it will be very brief and won't feature conflicting sources.

I think we should get some sort of legend about the first Targaryen, explaining how he became a dragonlord and rose to (relative) power and prominence. That would even be more interesting if a Targaryen had been among the first dragonlords of Valyria.

Then there could be some name-dropping of important Targaryens who attached themselves to very successful and powerful dragonlords. Other talk could be about Targaryens distinguishing themselves during the Ghiscari Wars and, most interestingly, during the war against the Rhoynar later on. While I doubt any Targaryens was involved in the original Volantene-Rhoynish conflicts, some Targaryens would have been among the dragonlords putting down the Garin's alliance. And who knows? Perhaps a Targaryen also succumbed to greyscale after Garin's Curse?

We should get at least some stuff there.

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Targaryens on Dragonstone: Here I believe we may get a comprehensive family tree detailing Aenar the Exile's whole family, what exactly made Gaemon "the Glorious", what did the Targaryens looking east rather than west prior to Aegon the Conqueror mean and whether or not they were directly involved in the Century of Blood apart from Aegon the Conqueror. I expect this part to be rather small length-wise and maybe to feature conflicting sources or at least Gyldayn having to sift through what is true history and just stuff the singers made up that has nonetheless seeped into the popular conscience of Westeros.

Yeah, I think we should get a more detailed history of the Century of Blood from the Targaryen point of view. Gyldayn and Yandel could draw from Maester Thomax's Dragonkin for this part of the history. We know that the book covered the Targaryen history 'from exile (i.e. Aenar's arrival on Dragonstone) to apotheosis' (possible the end of the Conquest), making this a history of the Targaryens and their dragons on Dragonstone rather than their history as the royal dynasty of Westeros.

The idea that the 'Targaryen apotheosis' was some post-Conquest event is much less likely if you ask me.

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Note-In addition to what's below I also believe that Fire & Blood will give us more on where the idea of the Great Council came from, the various Vulture Kings that rose against the Targaryens and (finally!) what exactly happened with Grand Maester Hareth. Also, we can hope for an explanation of the surname Baratheon but I don't think that's likely.

I guess there is nothing special about the Great Council or its name. It is called that way to differentiate it from the Small Council, presumably, and we know that rather big councils involving many/all the lords of a kingdom were not unknown back in the days of the Seven Kingdoms. One council that could be called 'great' in its own right made the decision to offer/ask Joffrey Lydden to take the crown of the West back when the Andals were taking power there.

Grand Maester Hareth certainly should feature in that book. He could be the third Grand Maester Maegor executed, or possibly some Grand Maester attaching himself to one of the Daeron the Daring impostors. He might even be an earlier Grand Maester turning against the Conqueror or even King Jaehaerys I.

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Aegon I: Full account of the First Dornish War, the development of the factionalism between the line of Rhaenys and the line of Visenya, Aegon's relationships with his new Lords Paramount, and the early life of his sons seem to me the major new things to expect. Length-wise I actually suspect this will be one of the shorter ones and will not feature any conflicting sources.

I don't think (or rather hope) that this isn't going to be a book that's organized as covering the reigns of the various kings but rather a history of the Targaryen dynasty which chapters focus on important events in the history rather than organizing the events around the kings.

Say, one chapter is going to be the Conquest chapter we got in TWoIaF. Another is about the First Dornish War, another about the foundation and development of King's Landing during Aegon's reign. The 'The Sons of the Dragon' chapter covers both the childhood and youth of the sons of the Conqueror as well as the reign of both Aenys I and (presumably) Maegor the Cruel.

If George were to add more details he could include more sub-chapters into this section of the book. Say, 'The Sons of the Dragon' being the section, and then 'The Childhood, Youth, and Marriages of Aenys and Maegor' the first sub-chapter, followed by 'The Reign of Aenys I and the Faith Militant Uprising' and, perhaps, 'Maegor the Cruel and his Enemies' next.

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Aenys I: I expect we will get a full account of the short Second Dornish War (Note-I'm basing this off the fact that we have blank spots for two years of Aenys's reign and Gyldayn's account of Aegon's Conquest mentions that attempts to incorporate Dorne continued all throughout the reigns of Aegon and his sons), a bit on the relationship between Aenys and Maegor, a bit on Maegor's tenure as Hand, and possibly Maegor's eulogy for his father. I expect this section to be rather small and after some discussion with @Lord Varys it is clear to me that "The Sons of the Dragon" will not feature conflicting sources but letters, decrees, and other legal documents could make for interesting inserts.

Such inserts we could also get for earlier kings, of course. Imagine Gyldayn giving us an image of one of the most precious Targaryens heirlooms, some Valyrian scroll confirming the status of some ancient Targaryen as a dragonlord and welcoming him in the august legal body of the heads of the various dragonlord families (presumably some sort of dragonlord Senate that might have existed in Valyria), translated by Aerys I and shown/presented to Gyldayn by his good friend, King Aegon V. 

We could even have some diary pages from Visenya or even the Conqueror shedding some light on the business of that Dornish letter Aegon received...

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Maegor I: A full account of the Faith Militant Uprising, including descriptions of all the major battles such as the extended versions of the Battle of Stonebridge and the Battle of the Great Fork of the Blackwater that were cut from TWOIAF, a full account of the short-lived rebellion of Aegon, son of Aenys, how he acquired his father's dragon, how he and Rhaena escaped Crakehall, how Tyanna found Rhaena on Fair Isle, what impact did the death of Visenya have on Maegor's reign as well as the man himself, how did Tyanna run afoul of Maegor's wrath, the names of the other participants in the Trial by Seven, the Third Dornish War, the third Grand Maester killed by Maegor, and finally the events that cause Maegor's descent into madness and becoming a broken man by the end of his reign. I expect this section to be in the middle with regards to length and will not feature conflicting sources.

There certainly are some interesting details lacking there we already know of, but George could flash things much more out there, it seems. A reign that's pretty much an entire war for six years could be pretty interesting.

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Jaehaerys I: I expect here we will learn what the First Quarrel was about, about the lives of his children, and how the Faith Militant Uprising came to an end under his reign (Given that the conflict was resolved only after Barth was made Hand that means it must have continued in some fashion for the early part of his reign).

That is not necessary, actually. Maegor's laws stood, and the Faith and the High Septon were no longer resisting those. The members of the outlawed military orders still existed and were pissed, but there is no hint that there was still a widespread or organized rebellion going on. Most likely just a reasonably large group of former Poor Fellows and very few Warrior's Sons being a nuisance in certain regions of the Realm.

The lords also had issues with the Faith at this point, and were actually pushing Jaehaerys I to continue Maegor's hard stance against them. That doesn't make it very likely that they were still strong. It rather looks as if Maegor had drawn the teeth of the Faith and now the wolves were howling and begging the dragon to allow their a share in the corpse.

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It may sound strange but I actually expect this part to be one of the shortest ones given that it is a time of peace and unlike the court of his successor I doubt Jaehaerys I would have been blind or tolerant of intrigue and factionalism within his court so there probably isn't much more than what we got in TWOIAF that would be interesting to know. As to whether our sources on his reign will conflict with one another I'm ambivalent seeing as GRRM could go either way.

Still, quite a lot of stuff would have happened in half a century.

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Viserys I: I honestly don't think we're getting much more on Viserys I's reign than what we already have. Length-wise I expect the full text to be rather succinct and for this one we do have conflicting sources, namely Septon Eustace and Mushroom via TRP.

The reign of Viserys I, the Dance, and the Regency are the longest pieces of 'Fire and Blood' that George has already written. Combined they are what, over 150,000 words? About 80,000 on the Dance, and 40,000 or more each on Viserys I and the Regency?

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Daeron I: A full account of the Conquest of Dorne and the Dornish rebellion four years later following Lord Lyonel Tyrell's murder. Maybe a detail or two about what Daeron actually did when not warring or writing given that Yandel says he "ruled ably and capably". Also, we may get a canon explanation for why he never married. I expect this to be of medium length and not to feature conflicting sources all that much since Daeron's own account is in-universe acknowledged as the best text on the Conquest of Dorne though it is within the realm of possibility I think that we might get some Dornish accounts that contradict what Daeron wrote, which Gyldayn would not have failed to notice.

That could actually be pretty long depending how interesting Gyldayn finds the Conquest of Dorne and how much Daeron's own words we get to read in excerpts.

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Baelor I: I don't think we're getting much new here apart from maybe more about Baelor's personality before the snake-pit thing and the construction of the Great Sept of King's Landing. I expect this part to be short and maybe feature conflicting sources in the form of pro-Baelor writing from say Septons and other pious nobles on the one side and pro-Viserys writing from other nobles and the Maesters on the other. We do know for example that Maia Stokeworth started the rumor that Viserys poisoned Baelor though not why. Maybe something to do with Falena?

There is a lot of stuff here that's going to lead into the reign of the Unworthy so it could actually be very detailed.

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Aegon IV: I'm not sure what more about his reign we might learn about except maybe that his debacle of a war in 174 AC wasn't his only attempt to reconquer Dorne and how his descent into full-blown hedonism was gradual, starting as it did with "small acts of pleasure" as Yandel puts it. All in all, I expect Aegon IV's reign to be of medium length but leaning towards the short side and not to feature conflicting sources.

Considering that George has considered to write stuff from Aegon's POV he must have a pretty detailed picture how life in that period worked, stretching back to Aegon's youth under Aegon III and his sons.

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Daeron II: The second big one. I imagine we are going to learn A LOT that we didn't know before. First off I think we are going to get much deeper insight into the various relationships between Daeron, his family, and the Great Bastards in the years leading up to the First Blackfyre Rebellion, nothing less than a full account of which I expect we will also be getting. Beyond that what the Blackfyres were doing in exile before they formed the Golden Company and a family tree to go with that might be a possibility as well. Oh, and whether or not Daeron II enacted any reforms or encouraged trade a la his grandfather. This section I imagine after Aegon II to be one of the largest and to heavily feature conflicting sources in the form of pro-Red, pro-Black writing.

I expect more focus on the Blackfyres but not so much as you might expect. This is a Targaryen history, not a Blackfyre history. I expect to get more background for the First Rebellion and a detailed account on the war and its aftermath, though.

I don't think we'll get many Blackfyre propaganda in there. Gyldayn is a Targaryen man and the Blackfyres lost. No historian would have ever written a history from their point of view. Gyldayn could cite letters and writings of some Blackfyre loyalists but he is not likely to judge them favorably.

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Aerys I: I imagine we will get a full account of the Third Blackfyre Rebellion, learn about how Dagon Greyjoy met his end, why Maekar didn't jail Bloodraven, and who were the Rat, the Hawk, and the Pig. As a result I expect Aerys I's section to be of medium length with again conflicting pro-Red, pro-Black sources.

Maekar I: Here I think we'll get more on the fall of the Lothstons, the factions of the royal court (given that he summoned all his sons to King's Landing upon his ascension), how Maekar dealt with Blackfyre sympathies in the wake of the Third Blackfyre Rebellion, the Peake Uprising and the Great Council that followed it. I expect Maekar's reign to be of medium length but leaning towards the short side and to maybe feature conflicting sources but to a much lesser degree than the reigns of his brother and father.

Aegon V: Here I think we will learn what exactly were the reforms Aegon tried to enact, who were the most-outspoken of those against him that called him "a bloody-handed tyrant", what were the various rebellions he had to put down, including Lyonel Baratheon's brief war for Stormlands independence and the army of the Rat, the Hawk, and Pig, not to mention a full account of the brief Fourth Blackfyre Rebellion but NOT Summerhall. Overall, I expect this section to be one of the larger ones, similar to Daeron II in length and to not feature conflicting sources given Aegon V didn't rule all that long ago unless there was a lot of historiographical confusion on account of the lords sponsoring a ton of anti-Aegon V material. 

Details there would all greatly depend on the themes of the future Dunk & Egg stories. George could flash out some stuff some more but we should actually have a very good knowledge on a lot of the things happening during those reigns by that time.

 

3 hours ago, Lord Corlys Velaryon said:

Daeron I it probably is.

I don't think we can say that as of yet.

3 hours ago, Lord Corlys Velaryon said:

Aegon I lost two who died defending him (one likely being Ser Corlys as Ser Addison succeeded him as LC), but AFAWK he only fought on Balerion during the last couple years of the First Dornish War & there's no other known conflicts he was involved with afterwards. He's likely out.

There was fighting in KL, too, during the Dornish War, and Aegon might also have done stuff off his dragon.

3 hours ago, Lord Corlys Velaryon said:

Maegor could be, he certainly did enough warring, though he too did most of his fighting on dragonback & a KG who died for him may not be looked upon so fondly than others under other kings. He's possibly out.

We don't know whether Maegor did most of his fighting on dragonback. He could easily enough have been ambushed once while he wasn't on dragonback.

3 hours ago, Lord Corlys Velaryon said:

Aegon II has a couple of unknown spots, however his only battle was getting rekt by Rhaenys & Meleys at Rook's Rest. So he's out.

That seems likely.

3 hours ago, Lord Corlys Velaryon said:

Aegon III did have the Daeron the Daring pretenders, but he's not likely to have led any of the (short) campaigns against them. Viserys perhaps, but he of course wasn't the king yet. So Aegon's likely out.

There is no basis for this. We have no reason to believe Aegon III did not personally lead some campaign against one of the impostors not that he might have been attacked by some people on the road.

3 hours ago, Lord Corlys Velaryon said:

Maekar was possibly involved in the bringing down of the Lothstons, though we can't know for sure until a later D&E perhaps. And he had a peaceful reign (though that could easily be comparative to Aerys & Egg's), so the Peake Uprising was likely the only (other) conflict he saw. He probably died early during the Storming of Starpike given the nature of his death, so unless there was some earlier battle/s during the campaign say at Whitegrove or Dunstonbury ...

Could have been the Lothston thing. Or earlier battles against the Peakes. Could also have been Aerys I during the Third Blackfyre Rebellion, by the way.

3 hours ago, Lord Corlys Velaryon said:

Egg's a possibility with the Fourth Blackfyre Rebellion, but it's likely that the Battle of Wendwater Bridge was the only one of the war he fought in (& perhaps the only battle of the war, anyway). He may have led say one of the three royal armies he had to sent into the Westerlands to clout ears, but again, a future D&E. I'd say he & his father are possibly out, & unless there's unknown conflicts like say a Dornish War during Jaehaerys' reign (who'd presumably be on Vermithor anyway even if he was involved), then that's it.

 

We know that Aegon V faced a lot of rebellions during his reign, not just the Baratheon rebellion and the Fourth Blackfyre Rebellion. It could easily enough have been one of those rebellions.

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@Lord Varys

We are in agreement on the Targaryens pre-exile and their time on Dragonstone.

I don't think we're ever meant to know what was in that Dornish letter Aegon I received sadly.

On Viserys: If you include them all together then yes the events leading up to the Dance, the Dance itself, and the aftermath would be the longest part but I was thinking of just Viserys's reign and in that regard TRP is quite a bit shorter than TPATQ.

On Baelor and Aegon IV: I guess but I can't think of any details regarding either we don't already have that would be very interesting.

On the Blackfyres: It is precisely because this is a comprehensive history of the Targaryens that we should get a complete history of the Blackfyres. They're an important part of the royal family's history. At the very least we should get the basics: A complete family tree, dates of birth/death, causes of death, what they were doing before the Golden Company was founded, etc.

As for Gyldayn judging them unfavorably: He wouldn't be doing his job then would he? If the Dance is any indication though Gyldayn is an equal-opportunity critic but on the other hand GRRM did describe him as "an opinionated old fart" so maybe there will be some bias.

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13 minutes ago, The Grey Wolf said:

On Viserys: If you include them all together then yes the events leading up to the Dance, the Dance itself, and the aftermath would be the longest part but I was thinking of just Viserys's reign and in that regard TRP is quite a bit shorter than TPATQ.

There was still stuff cut from TRP, though. Not as much as was cut from TPatQ, of course, but still a lot of material.

13 minutes ago, The Grey Wolf said:

On the Blackfyres: It is precisely because this is a comprehensive history of the Targaryens that we should get a complete history of the Blackfyres. They're an important part of the royal family's history. At the very least we should get the basics: A complete family tree, dates of birth/death, causes of death, what they were doing before the Golden Company was founded, etc.

As for Gyldayn judging them unfavorably: He wouldn't be doing his job then would he? If the Dance is any indication though Gyldayn is an equal-opportunity critic but on the other hand GRRM did describe him as "an opinionated old fart" so maybe there will be some bias.

Why not? He would be writing his history during the reign of Aegon V where the Blackfyres were still sort of a threat, constantly destabilizing the Realm. An American historian who fought in World War II is also not very inclined to take Hitler's point of view.

Gyldayn could, perhaps, praise the virtues of Daemon I considering that the man was long dead but I very much doubt he'll have that much good to say about Haegon or Daemon III. You know, he might have been there during the Third Blackfyre Rebellion, most likely fighting on the right side (or attending some guy who fought on the right side).

The Dance is basically a piece of long-dead history. Nothing indicates that the Westerosi people really take sides on that past conflicts. Why should they? Their ancestors lived through it and whatever passed down through the ages would most likely have to do with the many people that died during that war over a trivial issue, not to mention the plague and the winter that followed it. The Dance is a lesson that what stupid can do to each other, not something where being on the right or the wrong side mattered. Nobody really won that war and thus it is pretty easy to condemn both sides with Gyldayn effectively does in the prologue of his history.

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2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Text

On TRP: Really? I thought only a little bit was cut. Do you know how much was left out because that would be good to know.

On Gyldayn: I'll be honest. I expect Gyldayn to, on account of his humanity, to have certain leanings but if he is that biased I will be disappointed. After all he is supposed to be a professional historian. Sure, he can (and probably will) castigate them for being traitors, pretenders, rebels, rabble-rousers, and trouble-makers but that doesn't mean he couldn't praise whatever good qualities they have, especially in light of such facts as Haegon having been murdered after honorably surrendering.  

Edited by The Grey Wolf

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Something else I thought of today. Does anyone want to speculate what the writings by Gyldayn covering the other Targaryen kings will be named?

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Visiting from another thread:  excellent work here.

Where do we stand on wordcount for each section?

  • GRRM mentioned that he wrote "about 80,000 words" for the Dance of the Dragons....I don't believe that includes TRP or the Regency, but I could be wrong (need citation). 
  • TPATQ is 30,000 words,
  • TRP is 10,000. 
  • Targaryen Conquest chunk from AWOIAF is around 10,000 pages (filled out). 
  • GRRM said he wrote 300,000 words on Targaryen history, but stopped with Aegon III.  Later he said 350,000.  Unsure what he was counting.
  • Recently he remarked that during his initial burst of activity he actually skipped over most of the reign of Jaehaerys I (by which I mean I think there isn't anything more than we got in the print version). 

    So what we need here are some citations.

 

For starters, what proof do we have that TRP wasn't in that wordcount? 

What confirmation do we have for anything else I just listed beyond print word count?  What was part of that initial 300-350,00 word burst and what wasn't?

 


 

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18 minutes ago, The Dragon Demands said:

Text

We know the full text of TPATQ is 80000 and that TRP as we have it is not the full text. Furthermore, we can be reasonably sure TSOTD will not be as long as TPATQ. Finally, we know that the Regency is separate from TPATQ and according to this link is nearly as long as the full text of it as well: http://goodqueenaly.tumblr.com/post/156442178683/a-interesting-little-tidbit-i-saw-on-facebook-this.

Edited by The Grey Wolf

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Well, I will try:

1. 'Prologue in Valyria, or, The meaning of 'Fire and Blood' (some stuff about the origins of the Targaryens in Valyria and flashing out of some historically important dragonlords up until Aenar and Daenys).

2. The Lords of Dragonstone (a brief history of the Targaryens on Dragonstone, flashing out the Century of Blood some more ending with the birth/youth of Aegon and his sister and the death or Lord Aerion.

3. The Conquest as given in TWoIaF.

4. The Sons of the Dragon.

5. The Father (or Parents?) of the Realm (the reign of Jaehaerys I and the Good Queen).

6. Prelude to the Dance (or The Dance before the Dance): the reign of Viserys I

7. The Dance of the Dragons (that could be a huge chapter split into multiple smaller chapters)

8. The False Dawn (the Regency of Aegon III; also possibly separated into smaller chapters)

9. The Agony of the Dragonbane (the reign of Aegon III, possibly with sub-chapters)

10. The Conquest of Dorne (Daeron I reign and death)

11. The Tame Dragon (Baelor's reign)

Cannot come up with some more right now.

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enough people know about the Blackfyre Rebellion in living memory that I think we don't need a history text to cover it, future Dunk & Egg stories can have flashbacks.  Same for Summerhall through War of the Five Kings:  people in the main series have lived through it can can "recal" it within the narrative POVs. 
 
I am troubled that the entire "Conquest of Dorne" era / "Sons of the Dragonbane" era won't be covered and...
...oh shit do an in-universe write-up of Maester Kaeth's "Lives of Four Kings".  It's the Lives of Four Kings era, basically (though I go by Aegon III to Aegon V; Daeron II launches into the Blackfyre era).
 
I think most of Aegon I already got covered between the Conquest and the First Dornish War section of the regional histories.
 
I think the Redwyne fleet held back in defensive posture to make sure no one attacked Oldtown by sea.  It wasn't big enough to split on two fronts against Rhaenyra's bi-coastal fleets, particularly with the Greyjoys running rampant in the Westerlands. 
 
I thought that in earlier versions Daeron did marry but just hadn't produced an heir yet?
 
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"5. The 9 lesser claimants at the Great Council of 101 AC as well as the identity of the Sea Snake's mother. On the former I can think of only the following possibilities: Bastard descendants of Aenys I, Prince Aemon, Prince Baelon, Prince Vaegon and/or descendants of Rhaena, Rhalla, and Aerea Targaryen.

 

There's always another bastard.

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hmmm....Elio said that the Regency material is "nearly as long" as the Dance material (though whether he meant the 30 k print version or the 80 k unreleased version is unclear). 
 

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