Macgregor of the North

Re-opening an old can of worms on an Old Nan topic for fresh analysis. (Novella content).

136 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

3 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Ok direpupy, what I am basically trying to get you to see the possibility of is this girl wanting out of a life of being tainted with treason with an old craven who has lost his beautiful castle and a massive portion of his wealth. Bear in mind that the girl may not know or care to find out that he may still have a decent amount of gold left. She may think he is pretty much dead broke now, which on top of everything else wrong with the man, is a huge turn off for a young girl. 

Also, the girl has to bear in mind that all her children would be Butterwells with the taint of treason on them. 

Now, we have her showing an interest in Dunk, however small you think that interest is, I believe she is physically attracted to the man. 

Add to that, she may have heard stories of Ashford and how a massive giant like Hedge Knight fought in a trial of Seven to save his hands and feet getting cut off after he physically beat up a member of the Royal blood all to rescue a damsel in distress. He did it all for a girl. 

We cant really deny that the Novellas have a theme where Dunk is a hopeless sucker for the ladies, and that he is the embodiment of the good Knights who save people in need of help, such as damsels in distress. It's a theme GRRM has got going on with Dunk we can't really ignore.

So if the girl decided to make a run for it and catch up to Dunk and make such a compelling case to him and Egg, what's to stop them taking her on as a companion?. Dunk and Egg both heard Bloodraven say that he decided whether or not Ambrose could "keep his wife", so if the girl doesn't want to be "kept" and latched on to them I can't really see them feeling the need to race back with her to hand her back to a traitor. 

The reasons why this girl would foresake her life as a "noble lady" with an old craven traitor who has just lost his beautiful castle and (for all she knows) been left nearly penniless are quite numerous if you open your mind to it. Girls can crave adventure on the road with hulking strong men they are physically attracted to, that is certainly a possibility, especially if it's a more fun prospect compared to what she's currently got going on.

Oh i do see what you are trying to get across and really i think whe are past the point of arguing wheter ore not she would stay with Ambrose, i am on board with living apart but not full annulment thing.

In my last post what i put up as an isseu is why she would go to Dunk and Egg for help instead of Bloodraven. This then is the question the theory needs to answer in order to promote itself from "higly unlikely" to "its a possibility"

A girl craving adventure would also consider going to court an adventure, and in this scenario she would not have to give up the luxuries of her noble life. Because lets face it she was enjoying being in the spotlight during her wedding and she has more change of more of that at court.

So again i put the question to you why would she go to Dunk and Egg who she knows nothing about and can not be sure of will help her? Instead of going to Bloodraven who she knows for a fact can help her.

As to her hearing about Ashford since Dunk did not use his own coat of arms her making this connection is very unlikely.

Edited by direpupy

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48 minutes ago, direpupy said:

Oh i do see what you are trying to get across and really i think whe are past the point of arguing wheter ore not she would stay with Ambrose, i am on board with living apart but not full annulment thing.

In my last post what i put up as an isseu is why she would go to Dunk and Egg for help instead of Bloodraven. This then is the question the theory needs to answer in order to promote itself from "higly unlikely" to "its a possibility"

A girl craving adventure would also consider going to court an adventure, and in this scenario she would not have to give up the luxuries of her noble life. Because lets face it she was enjoying being in the spotlight during her wedding and she has more change of more of that at court.

So again i put the question to you why would she go to Dunk and Egg who she knows nothing about and can not be sure of will help her? Instead of going to Bloodraven who she knows for a fact can help her.

As to her hearing about Ashford since Dunk did not use his own coat of arms her making this connection is very unlikely.

Thing is, I never mentioned annulment at all. I think that's what you assumed. I was always talking more of like the girl could just be allowed to leave Ambrose regardless of the marriage and consummation and he couldn't do shit about it since he is a petrified craven lucky to have his head and would never dare to even think that he has any right to make a big deal of it, let alone involve High septons and the like. 

There seems to lie the confusion between us on that matter. The marriage need not be completely scrapped for the girl to leave Ambrose and him not be able to do anything about it. That's the point, and that is plausible. I wasn't really meaning for Bloodraven to perform some kind of annulment right at Whitewalls, I was simply showing that it was Bloodravens choice whether or not Ambrose got to keep his wife, which I think shows that if a situation arose where she no longer wanted to be "kept", she could get away from it easily enough.

As to Dunk not using the same arms, that in no way means that she wasn't able to hear of the story of the freakishly built giant like hedge Knight with a bald boy for a squire who caused such a fuss at the Ashford Tourney because he helped some nobody of a girl, because of what happened with Baelor, that story is known throughout the realm. You assume too much there direpupy I think. The word could have gotten about the Whitewalls Tourney that Dunk was that hedge Knight easily, very easily. Uthor tells Dunk he knows of Ashford and Dunks involvement, so if he does then others will have made the connection too, which means word could have easily reached the Lord of the Castle and his young wife. It's not that hard to envision this really.

Whats left I suppose is for you to open your mind to possibilities such as the girl running off and chancing across/or even purposefully catching up to Dunk and Egg and things taking off from there, or other similar scenarios. There's numerous circumstances that leave this theory open in regards to how this girl throws in with Dunk, a man who she may have heard about helping the puppeteer and a man who she is physically attracted to, and his wee squire Egg, who has shown himself at Whitewalls to be a Dragon of House Targaryen, on their travels North. 

The Novellas have that funny way of briefly touching on events Dunk and Egg have been through off page, like how they look back on their previous battle with the Ironborn, and of their crazy wee adventure in Dorne. 

At the beginning of the Winterfell Novella a similar scenario could take place where Dunk Egg and the girl reminisce on how she came to join them on the road North. If GRRM writes it you will take it all in and that will be that, but when it's speculated on for fun, you have trouble opening up to the possibility. I can understand that, but if I may say, I think sometimes you apply a little too much real world and sensible thinking to these fantasy stories. 

Do you per chance recall our conversation on the thread about Winterfells numbers? Where you argued for quite a long time with all your real world angles until you finally caved in and saw my point of view because I relied on exactly what was in the books, which is how empty Winterfell was when Theon took it. Anyways that's just an example. 

I think there are a few things in these books that give enough reason for us to speculate that this lass could have became the Winterfell wet nurse after joining Dunk and Eggs company. All possibilities have came from the book text, like my angles about Winterfells numbers. What I'm saying is don't be too quick to think it impossible because you think a lass in the real medieval world would have been unable to do this, that's all I'm saying. 

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7 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

The possibility that one or both of Hodor/Walders parents named him Walder in regards to some connection to House Frey, or even in order to curry some sort of favour with Lord Walder Frey was and always will be what first kickstarted any interest in beginning discussions on this topic.

Its interesting why GRRM decided to have Hodor named this way. 

Perhaps Hodors mother learned of her family history somehow and thought if she named her son Walder and could explain to old Walder any family history she had learned she could be allowed to live at the twins with her son?. Maybe House Frey weren't impressed and sent them away and Hodor somehow ended up with his Great Grandmother in the North. 

All we can do is speculate but the name is likely what tweaked everyone's interest in the first place. It's what lured me to the possibility, along with a few reads of the Mystery Knight and seeing the timelines match up (in my opinion). 

@Seams brought something new to the table I believe with the whole Butterwells/Cows/Milk/Milk in their blood stuff which now that she mentions it, does conjure up ideas of a wet nurse if you care to make the connection. 

This whole thing is actually a harder theory to debunk than most theories you see floating around here, and I genuinely mean that. 

I agree that it's the name that sets it ticking. If only we had any other guys names Walder who were not connected with House Frey...

I agree on what Seams mentioned as well. Can't make butter well without milk.

But I am really digging the Nan/Nymeria thing and Old Nan's namesake direwolf taking out her bratty brother's nastier offspring. :D

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Posted (edited)

2 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Do you per chance recall our conversation on the thread about Winterfells numbers? Where you argued for quite a long time with all your real world angles until you finally caved in and saw my point of view because I relied on exactly what was in the books, which is how empty Winterfell was when Theon took it. Anyways that's just an example.

I do remember but you are confusing me with Lord Varys and Free Northman Reborn here ;). We actually like we always do gradually gravitated towards each other to come to a concensus.

2 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Thing is, I never mentioned annulment at all. I think that's what you assumed. I was always talking more of like the girl could just be allowed to leave Ambrose regardless of the marriage and consummation and he couldn't do shit about it since he is a petrified craven lucky to have his head and would never dare to even think that he has any right to make a big deal of it, let alone involve High septons and the like. 

 

Actually you did, from your OP:

On 16-3-2017 at 11:37 AM, Macgregor of the North said:

She could petition to the Royal Hand and maybe even Egg that she wants the marriage scrapped, which is a possibility, which leaves her free to go her own way and latch on to Dunk and Egg when they head North to Winterfell.

You most definetly mentioned annulment you just used a different word for it.

I also originaly argued that for that to happen you needed the faith wich is still true, but we have moved on from that because an other poster gave evidence of married people living apart from each other.

2 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

At the beginning of the Winterfell Novella a similar scenario could take place where Dunk Egg and the girl reminisce on how she came to join them on the road North. If GRRM writes it you will take it all in and that will be that, but when it's speculated on for fun, you have trouble opening up to the possibility. I can understand that, but if I may say, I think sometimes you apply a little too much real world and sensible thinking to these fantasy stories.

I do not mind but must also conclude that you often go in the opposite direction and rely to much on "Its fantasy anything can happen" wich with the amount of realism that GRRM treis to put into his story's simply can not be releid up on as a argument.

His caracters think like real people, that is his signature mark and he has exprest pride in that himself, so we have to asume that this girl does to and as such for this to be a viable theory you still have to answer the question why go to Dunk and Egg and not Bloodraven who makes more sence in the situation she is in.

Edited by direpupy

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46 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

I agree that it's the name that sets it ticking. If only we had any other guys names Walder who were not connected with House Frey...

I agree on what Seams mentioned as well. Can't make butter well without milk.

But I am really digging the Nan/Nymeria thing and Old Nan's namesake direwolf taking out her bratty brother's nastier offspring. :D

Hmm, The young Frey girl being called Nymeria, while thinking on it I recall there has been some strangely named Freys in the books I think. We never did get her name so who knows. 

Yeah the angle your looking at is cool, Nymeria and her pack attacking the Freys was great to read about. 

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4 minutes ago, direpupy said:

I do remember but you are confusing me with Lord Varys and Free Northman Reborn here ;). We actually like we always do gradually gravitated towards each other to come to a concensus.

Actually you did, from your OP:

You most definetly mentioned annulment you just used a different word for it.

I also originaly argued that for that to happen you needed the faith wich is still true, but we have moved on from that because an other poster gave evidence of married people living apart from each other.

I do not mind but must also conclude that you often go in the opposite direction and rely to much on "Its fantasy anything can happen" wich with the amount of realism that GRRM treis to put into his story's simply can not be releid up on as a argument.

His caracters think like real people, that is his signature mark and he has exprest pride in that himself, so we have to asume that this girl does to and as such for this to be a viable theory you still have to answer the question why go to Dunk and Egg and not Bloodraven who makes more sence in the situation she is in.

We are seeming to do that again here I believe here direpupy. 

Yes I do recall now one of my options mentioning that she could ask for it to be scrapped, among other options. If she went that route I still don't think the High septon is needed though as Bloodraven could simply have let her go on her way with no need to take her case to the faith, which is kind of like treating the marriage as though it meant nothing (I suppose). I never really ever thought of anything huge and official like High septon involvement and a case being brought to the faith for full annulment. Anyways, we are past that like you say. 

I disagree of course that I rely too much on the fantasy side and think I've touched on a home truth that you look to the real world too much so you felt you must counter with that. I truly go with what the books show me, as that's the only true way to be guided here I think, and the books are fantasy, but I do not rely solely on it being fantasy to guide me, there is a difference. 

And direpupy I have answered your question quite sufficiently. I see you have went silent on the matter of Dunks identity and his helping the puppeteer being known from Ashford, which played a part in my answer to your question. 

Theres actually a higher chance the girl knows all about Dunk at Ashford. Her uncle Franklyn is a Tourney Knight who tilted at both Tourneys and will have known Dunk on sight. That is another source, very close to the girl I'll add, that can spread the word of Dunks actions around, and confirm that the big hedge Knight is indeed Dunk.

Which could in turn show Dunk as the exact type of guy a girl could turn to if she needed aid, especially if you add that she's quite drawn to the man already, and the big guys squire is a prominent member of House Targaryen and Royal blood of the crown. The same crown who just pronounced that her treasonous husband was lucky to keep his head. 

 

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The Arya as Nan story, of a highborn girl hiding in a castle as a common servant (who happens to be engaged with a Frey at the time), would be a nice mirror of young lady butterwell hiding as a common wet nurse in Winterfell. 

If she was indeed a highborn girl with a great interest in stories, this could also explain the incredible amount of stories she knows; she could've read the whole (respectable - according to Tyrion) library of Winterfell.

I don't think she would've asked for Bloodraven's help to be fair, I think she would've just run away, with Dunk and Egg, or have followed them. 

I don't see how it would've been very hard for her to escape. She wasn't a prisoner, and all she had to do was sneak away at some point. Nobody would expect her to do that, so nobody would be trying to prevent her from doing it. 

Lyanna managed to run away, and Arya managed to escape King's Landing, where half the gold cloaks where actively looking for her, and again she escaped during the fight with Amory Lorch, and again from Harrenhal, and AGAIN from the BWB... Even Sansa managed to escape the Red Keep. I don't see why it would be a stretch to assume young nan may have escaped her marriage at Harrenhal or later, without getting caught. Especially when she had some help from Dunk & Egg. I can totally imagine Dunk playing the knight in shining armor to sexy lady Butterwell, while Egg tries to explain endlessly why this is a stupid idea.

There's no reason at all to assume she'd have to travel in a covered wagon to hide her identity. She could simply wear peasant's clothes. Lord Butterwell didn't have a huge army to find her, and he wouldn't know in which direction they left. If they stayed off the Kingsroad for a decent amount of time, and put some effort into hiding their tracks (which even 10 year old Arya knew how to do), they'd be safe in a matter of days. 

There's also no reason to assume that anyone in Winterfell would've known who she was. She could simply have told them she was a common girl from the Riverlands who learned how to read and speak 'highborn' from her parents, who happened to be in the service of some minor house. You know... Like Arya did, when she played Nan. 

I also think her great grandson's name is Walder, because that's the name she gave to her own son, in memory of her family, and names tend to stay in families, so her son and grandson named their sons Walder as well. Nobody would bet an eye if some servant happened to name her son Walder.

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@Manderly's Rat Cook

Some good points. It does sound more likely she could have just run off and newly labelled traitor Butterwell simply just does not have the resources or whatever to find her, likely grieving terribly over his castle getting torn down and wealth taken from him, he could even see his wife running away as just yet more bad fortune. She could chance upon Dunk and Egg heading North or actively pursue them. 

Its also true that Winterfell need not even know who she was before she came there. I don't see why she would need to tell them who she really was. 

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I take exception to the idea that Nymeria Frey would name a child after her snot-nosed little brother who's nosiness got her married off to Lord Butterwell. Or her father (assuming that was his name as well) who married her off to Lord Butterwell.

Though I suppose if she'd had a doting grandfather named Walder, she might name a son after him.

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1 hour ago, Macgregor of the North said:

@Manderly's Rat Cook

Some good points. It does sound more likely she could have just run off and newly labelled traitor Butterwell simply just does not have the resources or whatever to find her, likely grieving terribly over his castle getting torn down and wealth taken from him, he could even see his wife running away as just yet more bad fortune. She could chance upon Dunk and Egg heading North or actively pursue them. 

Its also true that Winterfell need not even know who she was before she came there. I don't see why she would need to tell them who she really was. 

Yeah we have lots of examples of girls running away, I didn't even think of Alys Karstark before, who was also held captive, or poor Jeyne Poole... And Old Lord Butterwell certainly was no Ramsay. Besides that we have countless examples of women dressing up simply, and not being recognised; Cat along the Kingsroad with Rodrik Cassel (it would've worked the whole journey, if they hadn't run into Tyrion, Cersei dressing up as a serving girl to wave to Jaime at the tourney, with her own husband present, and doing the same to fuck Jaime in the Sept next to her father's corpse, and according to her she's done this many times. This is the Queen of the seven kingdoms, so why would something like that suddenly be impossible for the wife of some random Lord, who's just been declared a traitor?

 

Old Nan being lady Butterwell may also turn out to have played a part in Lyanna's escape, and how she managed to do it. It wouldn't surprise me if we find out later that old nan has been telling a story about a young girl, who ran away with a hedge knight, and a Targaryen Prince to flee from her old, mean, traitor husband. Sansa would love it, and Arya probably as well,  for different reasons. 

Thinking further about Old Nan reading the entire WF library also makes sense, since a wetnurse/nanny would probably read stories to children (that is, if she can actually read), making boring books more exciting with a pinch of imagination. If you do that for 80 years, you'll probably know all the stories by heart. 

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12 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:
 

@Clegane'sPup a long time ago it was shown that you are better ignored on here, so don't waste your time tagging me in hopes I'll talk with you about topics I begin. Your buddy Dorian Martell is heading that way soon too but I've felt the need to dish out some harsh truths to him, which I have and they are ingrained in his mind now. 

Im sure that in time when you both continue to come on my threads hoping to discuss the books with me, my silence will be enough to give you pause for thought and realise that you are wasting your time and will move on to other threads with your amazing attitudes. 

The time will come I'm confident, and other posters will have to give you both the attention you girls and guys crave. I can no longer help you in that department, no matter how much you crave discussions with me. And if you disagree on the last fact I stated, prove it that you don't. Be my guest :D

I knew you couldn't quit me :wub:

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6 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

We are seeming to do that again here I believe here direpupy. 

Yes I do recall now one of my options mentioning that she could ask for it to be scrapped, among other options. If she went that route I still don't think the High septon is needed though as Bloodraven could simply have let her go on her way with no need to take her case to the faith, which is kind of like treating the marriage as though it meant nothing (I suppose). I never really ever thought of anything huge and official like High septon involvement and a case being brought to the faith for full annulment. Anyways, we are past that like you say. 

I disagree of course that I rely too much on the fantasy side and think I've touched on a home truth that you look to the real world too much so you felt you must counter with that. I truly go with what the books show me, as that's the only true way to be guided here I think, and the books are fantasy, but I do not rely solely on it being fantasy to guide me, there is a difference. 

And direpupy I have answered your question quite sufficiently. I see you have went silent on the matter of Dunks identity and his helping the puppeteer being known from Ashford, which played a part in my answer to your question. 

Theres actually a higher chance the girl knows all about Dunk at Ashford. Her uncle Franklyn is a Tourney Knight who tilted at both Tourneys and will have known Dunk on sight. That is another source, very close to the girl I'll add, that can spread the word of Dunks actions around, and confirm that the big hedge Knight is indeed Dunk.

Which could in turn show Dunk as the exact type of guy a girl could turn to if she needed aid, especially if you add that she's quite drawn to the man already, and the big guys squire is a prominent member of House Targaryen and Royal blood of the crown. The same crown who just pronounced that her treasonous husband was lucky to keep his head. 

 

I disagree that for a formal anulment you do not need the faith since GRRM has already had two caracters in the books confirm this ignoring this is not going to make the fact that i am right on this go away. If you really as you claim go by what the books show us then you should stop claiming the faith is not needed for anulment since GRRM has been very clear on this matter.

As to the girl knowing about ashford, you mean the uncle franklyn who failed to recognise Dunk troughout the whole novella. Not a convincing argument at al. Had he recognised him the people would have constantly asked him about Ashford and nobody did.

You really have not ansered my question at all, you just gave some speculation that does not convincinly show that she knows who Dunk is or that he might be willing to help her. A bigger problem still is the fact that you consistently ignore the fact that Bloodraven is in a much better position to help her and that logic (something GRRM is very big on) dictates she go to him not Dunk.

You can disagree with me on you relying to much on the fantasy side but that does not make it any less true, so i think i have touched on a home truth about you her aswell hence your sudden coldnes in your respons to my post.

Personnaly i do not think you want to let go of they idea she could be Nan and i am fine with that, but do not expect me to see this theory as plausible until you can finally answer my question with more then speculation.

Perhaps in this case we are going to have to agree to disagree, but i am open to hearing more about this theory, hell if it did not interest me i would not have responded to it in the first place.

I commend you on how many of the problems this theory  set out with you have solved but i really do think you have some more work to do to really make it convincing.

PS. I am swamped in work at the moment and may by the looks of things not be home in the next few days (the unfortunate part of being a troubleshooter for your employer:wacko: ) so if you respond to this post do not be suprised if my respons back will be a few days coming.

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17 minutes ago, direpupy said:

I disagree that for a formal anulment you do not need the faith since GRRM has already had two caracters in the books confirm this ignoring this is not going to make the fact that i am right on this go away. If you really as you claim go by what the books show us then you should stop claiming the faith is not needed for anulment since GRRM has been very clear on this matter.

As to the girl knowing about ashford, you mean the uncle franklyn who failed to recognise Dunk troughout the whole novella. Not a convincing argument at al. Had he recognised him the people would have constantly asked him about Ashford and nobody did.

You really have not ansered my question at all, you just gave some speculation that does not convincinly show that she knows who Dunk is or that he might be willing to help her. A bigger problem still is the fact that you consistently ignore the fact that Bloodraven is in a much better position to help her and that logic (something GRRM is very big on) dictates she go to him not Dunk.

You can disagree with me on you relying to much on the fantasy side but that does not make it any less true, so i think i have touched on a home truth about you her aswell hence your sudden coldnes in your respons to my post.

Personnaly i do not think you want to let go of they idea she could be Nan and i am fine with that, but do not expect me to see this theory as plausible until you can finally answer my question with more then speculation.

Perhaps in this case we are going to have to agree to disagree, but i am open to hearing more about this theory, hell if it did not interest me i would not have responded to it in the first place.

I commend you on how many of the problems this theory  set out with you have solved but i really do think you have some more work to do to really make it convincing.

PS. I am swamped in work at the moment and may by the looks of things not be home in the next few days (the unfortunate part of being a troubleshooter for your employer:wacko: ) so if you respond to this post do not be suprised if my respons back will be a few days coming.

You're right about the faith being necessary for formal annulment, but there's no reason to assume she would want that. 

I've given plenty of examples of highborn girls/women who fled and/or traveled anonymously. It's really not that hard to run away, especially when no one has reason to think you will. 

Your argument that she'd ask Bloodraven for help doesn't make sense. By all accounts Bloodraven is, and was a rather terrifying man, and there's a strong, friendly looking dude, who she seems to be attracted to, and who's also attracted to her. That's a way more obvious choice for a 15 yo girl.

Gilly also chooses fat, friendly, and frightened Sam over Jeor Mormont for her request for help, even though the Old Bear was in a position he could've helped her better. Why? Because he wouldn't have helped her. Same goes for Bloodraven. 

 

Then there's also this: she may have asked for help 'escaping', but it's just as likely that she did the escaping by herself, and just caught up with Dunk and Egg later on. She was not in a position where getting away would've been very hard, since she wasn't a prisoner, and Lord Butterwell wasn't Ramsay or Joffrey.

 

Again here's a list of girls and women who managed to sneak away unnoticed or escape somewhere, or keep their identity hidden. Most of them in much more difficult circumstances:

Cersei (as Queen) multiple times, Arya all the time, fArya, Alys Karstark, Sansa, Catelyn, Gilly, Lyanna twice, and possibly Ashara Dayne... 

It's really not all that unlikely. And it's completely in Dunk's character to help her.

 

Now I'm not saying it has to be true, although I think it's an interesting notion, I'm just saying that your argument that there is too much fantasy needed to make it work really isn't valid, since there are loads of in world examples of girls running away against much greater odds.

 

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16 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:
 

@Clegane'sPup a long time ago it was shown that you are better ignored on here, so don't waste your time tagging me in hopes I'll talk with you about topics I begin. Your buddy Dorian Martell is heading that way soon too but I've felt the need to dish out some harsh truths to him, which I have and they are ingrained in his mind now. 

Im sure that in time when you both continue to come on my threads hoping to discuss the books with me, my silence will be enough to give you pause for thought and realise that you are wasting your time and will move on to other threads with your amazing attitudes. 

The time will come I'm confident, and other posters will have to give you both the attention you girls and guys crave. I can no longer help you in that department, no matter how much you crave discussions with me. And if you disagree on the last fact I stated, prove it that you don't. Be my guest :D

Why do you feel that your above response was necessary? Help me understand why you think that was an appropriate thing to say.

Herein lays the problem as I see it. I like the northern story line and characters. The topic is what draws my attention not the originator of the topic. To clarify, if you bring up the northern story line or northern characters in a topic you can expect for me to show up on the thread from time to time.

If you don’t want to discuss the topic with me please be polite; ignore me and stop casting innuendo and mockery in my direction.

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@direpupy

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I disagree that for a formal anulment you do not need the faith since GRRM has already had two caracters in the books confirm this ignoring this is not going to make the fact that i am right on this go away. If you really as you claim go by what the books show us then you should stop claiming the faith is not needed for anulment since GRRM has been very clear on this matter.

That wasn't what was said. In my option where the girl requests for the marriage to be scrapped there is no full annulment or case brought to the High septon. Bloodraven simply would just decide then that Ambrose did not get to keep his wife, just like he earlier decided all by himself without any involvement of the faith that Butterwell could keep his wife. See what we're saying. I am not talking now, or never was talking about anything involving the High septon until you brought it up.

Basically, if the girl asks for an out or for it to be scrapped, it need not even go that far. Bloodraven just simply decides Ambrose does not get to keep his wife. You get it now yeah?. I'm not explaining that one again to you. You should understand this by now.

I'll reply to the other parts on another post. 

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@direpupy

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As to the girl knowing about ashford, you mean the uncle franklyn who failed to recognise Dunk troughout the whole novella. Not a convincing argument at al. Had he recognised him the people would have constantly asked him about Ashford and nobody did.

What proof do you have that makes you so sure that a Giant of a Hedge Knight with a bald boy as his squire would not be recognised by a man who was at Ashford? Especially after all that happened there, the whole realm knows the story. Uthor makes it very clear to Dunk that he could have many enemies in people who see him as the root of all their woes due to Ashford. 

Uthor wasn't even there and he knows, others will too, just because we don't read of it on page that does not make it so. Infact Uthors words make it more likely that people and Tourney Knights alike will have spied this huge giant like Hedge Knight with his baldy wee squire and whispers will have moved around that this was the man who was the cause of the trial of seven, and the reason why there was a trial of seven will have been whispered to I believe, which could easily endear Dunk to the bride further. 

I don't find that hard to believe and have used Uthors text to back up my assumptions. What text are you relying on direpupy?. 

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I commend you on how many of the problems this theory  set out with you have solved but i really do think you have some more work to do to really make it convincing.

Thank you. And more convincing to yourself perhaps but only because you are grudgingly denying its plausibility. 

Like ive always said from the start, I'm not sold either, but there is more than enough to speculate on and all this theory needs is GRRM to say it's so and it all fits perfectly. Time will tell. 

All I set out to do here was do a very thorough analysis, and it's actually had some great discussions. Some not so great too but hey, you gotta take the sweet with the sour.

You can leave replying if you like mate, we usually agree to disagree on some things but find some common ground on others. It seems we reached our usual standpoint and I'll not lose sleep because you disagree with certain points.

Infact, if you wish to continue the dance, @Manderly's Rat Cook is bringing up some really great thoughts inspired by book events. Great points again MRK.

Edited by Macgregor of the North

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On 21-3-2017 at 8:41 AM, Macgregor of the North said:
 

@direpupy

What proof do you have that makes you so sure that a Giant of a Hedge Knight with a bald boy as his squire would not be recognised by a man who was at Ashford? Especially after all that happened there, the whole realm knows the story. Uthor makes it very clear to Dunk that he could have many enemies in people who see him as the root of all their woes due to Ashford. 

Uthor wasn't even there and he knows, others will too, just because we don't read of it on page that does not make it so. Infact Uthors words make it more likely that people and Tourney Knights alike will have spied this huge giant like Hedge Knight with his baldy wee squire and whispers will have moved around that this was the man who was the cause of the trial of seven, and the reason why there was a trial of seven will have been whispered to I believe, which could easily endear Dunk to the bride further. 

I don't find that hard to believe and have used Uthors text to back up my assumptions. What text are you relying on direpupy?. 

Thank you. And more convincing to yourself perhaps but only because you are grudgingly denying its plausibility. 

Like ive always said from the start, I'm not sold either, but there is more than enough to speculate on and all this theory needs is GRRM to say it's so and it all fits perfectly. Time will tell. 

All I set out to do here was do a very thorough analysis, and it's actually had some great discussions. Some not so great too but hey, you gotta take the sweet with the sour.

You can leave replying if you like mate, we usually agree to disagree on some things but find some common ground on others. It seems we reached our usual standpoint and I'll not lose sleep because you disagree with certain points.

Infact, if you wish to continue the dance, @Manderly's Rat Cook is bringing up some really great thoughts inspired by book events. Great points again MRK.

Thanks Macgregor! I propose that we stop debating whether or not it's possible that Old Nan is Lady Butterwell. I think we have provided enough reasons to show that it's at least possible, and if anyone feels it's too unlikely, and we keep discussing that part, the discussion is going nowhere at all. 

So I propose we start discussing what purpose Old Nan being lady Butterwell would have in the story. 

 

So.. My opinion is that Old Nan has played a part in Lyanna's storyline. 

We haven't seen any of the Stark kids being particularly close to Old Nan, other than that they see her as the funny old lady who tells the best stories. But that doesn't mean that no child would've been particularly close to her. A nanny spends huge amounts of time with children, and Old Nan was quite a bit younger in those days. I think Lyanna may have went to Old Nan with her doubts about her marriage to Robert, and her possible love for another man. 

It's likely that someone who took their fate into her own hands, would advise others to do the same. So Old Nan may have advised Lyanna on what to do, and how to do it.

It would also complete the circle of "women of Winterfell", who all seem to escape, and take a different identity. 

The girl who looks like the girl who escaped her marriage, names herself after an old lady, who turns out to be a girl who escaped her marriage. (with a name derived of the name of a woman who fled with thousands of people, and herself, in order to escape slavery)

Wheels within wheels within wheels. 

Then we also have Sansa, who escaped her marriage during a wedding in order to live the life of a bastard. 

Poor Jeyne Poole who takes the false identity of the girl who has been hiding as a common girl named Nan for a marriage, that she subsequently flees from, disguised as a servant.

In the near future there will likely be an attempt by Jeyne Stark - Westerling to escape, not specifically from a marriage, but it's marriage related anyway. 

And there's Cat, who escaped death (where she would be reunited with her husband, or at least I think that's what she believes) in order to live the life of the vengeful undead leader of a band of outlaws. 

The only other female figures I can think of, that are connected to WF, that have not somehow escaped, and changed their identities, are Beth, Septa Mordane, and arguably Kyra (of whom you could reason that she escaped by death, and changed her identity to a dog, but that's a bit far fetched) 

Anyway Old Nan being an escaped lady with a new identity, fits in nicely, and would make a cool connection to a past, where this is something that repeats itself, in one form or another. 

So I'd like to hear other people's thoughts on this. 

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On 20-3-2017 at 11:36 PM, Manderly's Rat Cook said:

You're right about the faith being necessary for formal annulment, but there's no reason to assume she would want that.

The point whas that for a while our OP did not believe this was true, if you had actually read al my post on this tread you would know that we already diterment that in the case of this theory there was no need for a formal annulment. I only brought it up again in relation to him saying he went by wat the books say and it was they example of him not doing that, that was closest at hand.

I will quote the post you seem to have missed.

On 20-3-2017 at 0:48 PM, direpupy said:

Oh i do see what you are trying to get across and really i think whe are past the point of arguing wheter ore not she would stay with Ambrose, i am on board with living apart but not full annulment thing.

@Macgregor of the North

Still swamped with work (I should actually be workin right now) so i am going to stop playing the devils advocate, the truth is i have come up with an answer to my own questions quite a while back. But desided to hold off on telling you to see if you would come up with the same answers.

To the question on why she would go to Dunk and Egg instead of Bloodraven who makes more sence: What if she did go to Bloodraven but he turned her down because he had already desided Ambrose could keep her. Now already having run away from Ambrose and fearfull on what he might do if she returns (no beter target for a cowards anger then a young girl after al) she having heard about the Targaryen prince and the knight that he travels with (to many people have seen Egg for that story to not have made the rounds) she turns to Dunk and Egg.

Now this is a plausible reason for her to turn to them as i was asking you to provide.

As to the question on why she would give up her life as a noble woman: In they above senario she did not originally plan to, she would have asked Bloodraven for asylum at court. That not being a possibility anymore she trows in her lot with Dunk and Egg, perhaps quitly hoping that Egg as prince will take her to court wich then does not happen because they are not going to court for the next few years.

The reason i did not tell you this before is because i was hoping you would see past the its fantasy explanation and come up with these answers yourself.

I have to get back to work, but wen i can i shall check in to see the progress on the discussion of this theory.

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Without getting into whether Old Nan=Lady Butterwell, IF Lady Butterwell did decide to escape her husband then why would she tell anyone who she *really* is?  It's not really rocket science that if you're running from something then telling people who you *really* are is stupid. If she's smart enough to come up with an escape plan then she's probably smart enough to realize she needs an alias and a half-decent cover story.

  She's probably also smart enough to realize that the man who already told Lord Butterwell he could keep his wife probably isn't going to help her escape said husband, so she'd need to look elsewhere for help. 

That's all assuming she *was* smart enough to plan an escape and leave her disgraced husband.  If she wasn't smart enough then she likely wouldn't have even put more than a passing thought into escaping her husband, or actually go through with, let alone not get caught shortly afterwards.  So, if she DID manage to successfully escape Butterwell, then she's got to have *some* street smarts - and using an alias would be...third step maybe (I'd put food and warm clothes ahead of alias for a successful escape - doesn't matter how good your alias is if you can't remember to pack a bit of food and warm clothes for a journey of indeterminate length!).

I definitely like the idea of Old Nan=Lady Butterwell, and I can see how it could work....but at the same time there are a lot of difficulties with it as well.  At the very least, I don't see why we can't speculate about the possibility - it's not like we have anything else to do! (And gods know it's not the weirdest or worst theory on these boards!).  It's not like we're ever going to come to a consensus on a lot of this stuff until ALL the books are out - so we've got a good 20+ years before we're going to have any conclusive answers.  And who knows, GRRM might not even give us any conclusive answers for Old Nan (among other things we may never get a conclusive answer for), letting us speculate wildly for generations to come!

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4 hours ago, direpupy said:

The point whas that for a while our OP did not believe this was true, if you had actually read al my post on this tread you would know that we already diterment that in the case of this theory there was no need for a formal annulment. I only brought it up again in relation to him saying he went by wat the books say and it was they example of him not doing that, that was closest at hand.

I will quote the post you seem to have missed.

@Macgregor of the North

Still swamped with work (I should actually be workin right now) so i am going to stop playing the devils advocate, the truth is i have come up with an answer to my own questions quite a while back. But desided to hold off on telling you to see if you would come up with the same answers.

To the question on why she would go to Dunk and Egg instead of Bloodraven who makes more sence: What if she did go to Bloodraven but he turned her down because he had already desided Ambrose could keep her. Now already having run away from Ambrose and fearfull on what he might do if she returns (no beter target for a cowards anger then a young girl after al) she having heard about the Targaryen prince and the knight that he travels with (to many people have seen Egg for that story to not have made the rounds) she turns to Dunk and Egg.

Now this is a plausible reason for her to turn to them as i was asking you to provide.

As to the question on why she would give up her life as a noble woman: In they above senario she did not originally plan to, she would have asked Bloodraven for asylum at court. That not being a possibility anymore she trows in her lot with Dunk and Egg, perhaps quitly hoping that Egg as prince will take her to court wich then does not happen because they are not going to court for the next few years.

The reason i did not tell you this before is because i was hoping you would see past the its fantasy explanation and come up with these answers yourself.

I have to get back to work, but wen i can i shall check in to see the progress on the discussion of this theory.

I did read all your posts, but it's always hard to remember exactly who said what during the entire concersation. To me it seemed like you didn't want this theory to work (which is fine), and picked out one unlikely suggestion on the execution of the escape plan, and used that to argue that the whole theory can't work. It's something I've seen happening a lot on this forum, and it's not very constructive.

It would probably have helped of you would've stated clearly that it was only this minor point you disagreed with, and not the whole possibility of an escape. 

Now I think all of us have slightly different views on how young lady Butterwell would execute her plan, and h that is fine. I personally think she'd never go to Bloodraven at all, because he was known to be a rather ruthless man, not necessarily cruel, but not the kind of person a 15 year old girl would turn to for help. Even I, as a 32 year old woman, would probably look to a friendly dude, who turns hot inside his helmet when I puff out my chest, for help before a cold, and hard man three times my age, who's in a position of power. Female intuition would tell this girl, that the big blushing boy would be more inclined to help her than Bloodraven. Just my opinion though. 

I often get a bit frustrated myself when I read a topic, and nobody makes the suggestion(s) that seems most obvious to me. I often wonder how they can't see it, and sometimes it pisses me off, but everybody has their own thought process, and your logic may not make sense to others. I think it's best to just make the suggestions yourself, and see if others agree, or let it go. :-)

 

So... If I understand correctly, you agree that this theory could work, even though we all seem to have slightly different ideas about the how. Perhaps we can speculate a bit on what purpose it would serve in the story? I think that's the most interesting part. I made a suggestion in my previous post,  but perhaps you and others have other suggestions as well. Unless you think this theory is possible, but are convinced it's not true. That's also fine of course, but there just wouldn't be much to discuss. 

1 hour ago, Jak Scaletongue said:

Without getting into whether Old Nan=Lady Butterwell, IF Lady Butterwell did decide to escape her husband then why would she tell anyone who she *really* is?  It's not really rocket science that if you're running from something then telling people who you *really* are is stupid. If she's smart enough to come up with an escape plan then she's probably smart enough to realize she needs an alias and a half-decent cover story.

  She's probably also smart enough to realize that the man who already told Lord Butterwell he could keep his wife probably isn't going to help her escape said husband, so she'd need to look elsewhere for help. 

That's all assuming she *was* smart enough to plan an escape and leave her disgraced husband.  If she wasn't smart enough then she likely wouldn't have even put more than a passing thought into escaping her husband, or actually go through with, let alone not get caught shortly afterwards.  So, if she DID manage to successfully escape Butterwell, then she's got to have *some* street smarts - and using an alias would be...third step maybe (I'd put food and warm clothes ahead of alias for a successful escape - doesn't matter how good your alias is if you can't remember to pack a bit of food and warm clothes for a journey of indeterminate length!).

I definitely like the idea of Old Nan=Lady Butterwell, and I can see how it could work....but at the same time there are a lot of difficulties with it as well.  At the very least, I don't see why we can't speculate about the possibility - it's not like we have anything else to do! (And gods know it's not the weirdest or worst theory on these boards!).  It's not like we're ever going to come to a consensus on a lot of this stuff until ALL the books are out - so we've got a good 20+ years before we're going to have any conclusive answers.  And who knows, GRRM might not even give us any conclusive answers for Old Nan (among other things we may never get a conclusive answer for), letting us speculate wildly for generations to come!

I agree that, except for the people who helped her, nobody would've known her identity, and the people who helped her (Dunk&Egg and possibly someone in WF) would also have kept their mouths shut. 

I agree that there are some difficulties, like with every other theory, but they're minor imo, and could easily be solved. I think Hodor's real name is a pretty strong hint towards a Frey connection, and since this seems to be the only possible connection with textual evidence, I think it's nice to speculate as well. I made some suggestions about a possible purpose it could serve in the story in my previous post, perhaps you have ideas about that as well 

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