andy_wan_kenobi

The Child of Rheagar and Lyanna

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11 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

 

Another "white lion" making his way to Daenerys is Moqorro. Dany will be AA returned, as Moqorro says. She will be the consuming fire on earth and Moq is going to serve her. And Moqorro was "delivered" to Victarion via a storm. That is when we meet Moqorro in the quote below.

A Dance with Dragons - The Iron Suitor

Grief's master awaited them on deck. A small man, as hairy as he was homely, he was a Sparr by birth. His men called him the Vole. "Lord Captain," he said when Victarion appeared, "this is Moqorro. A gift to us from the Drowned God."
The wizard was a monster of a man, as tall as Victarion himself and twice as wide, with a belly like a boulder and a tangle of bone-white hair that grew about his face like a lion's mane. His skin was black. Not the nut brown of the Summer Islanders on their swan ships, nor the red-brown of the Dothraki horselords, nor the charcoal-and-earth color of the dusky woman's skin, but black. Blacker than coal, blacker than jet, blacker than a raven's wing. Burned, Victarion thought, like a man who has been roasted in the flames until his flesh chars and crisps and falls smoking from his bones. The fires that had charred him still danced across his cheeks and forehead, where his eyes peered out from amongst a mask of frozen flames. Slave tattoos, the captain knew. Marks of evil.

Oh, nice catch!

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55 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:
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For instance why would Aegon (Rheagar-Elia) have the purple eyes and spun silver/gold hair?

Because he's fAegon.

It's curious that Illyrio's has a statue in his courtyard of a youth with gold hair no more than 15 or 16; surrounded by 6 cherry trees like sentinels.  It's also curious that fAegon has eyes so blue they look purple in a certain light.  Also a comely youth of 15 or 16.  Tyrion's observations...

As the Fattest Leach has pointed out; fAegon is surrounded by 6 cherry-picked protectors.   

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So for those that don't think Jon is Rhaegar's and Lyanna's... do you just dismiss the end of GoT chapter 13?

The boy absorbed that all in silence. He had the Stark face if not the name: long, solemn, guarded, a face that gave nothing away. Whoever his mother had been, she had left little of herself in her son. "What are you reading about?" he asked.
 
"Dragons," Tyrion told him.
 
"What good is that? There are no more dragons," the boy said with the easy certainty of youth.
 
"So they say," Tyrion replied. "Sad, isn't it? When I was your age, used to dream of having a dragon of my own."
 
"You did?" the boy said suspiciously. Perhaps he thought Tyrion was making fun of him.
"No," Jon Snow said, horrified. "I wouldn't . . . "
 
"No? Never?" Tyrion raised an eyebrow. "Well, no doubt the Starks have been terribly good to you. I'm certain Lady Stark treats you as if you were one of her own. And your brother Robb, he's always been kind, and why not? He gets Winterfell and you get the Wall. And your father . . . he must have good reasons for packing you off to the Night's Watch . . . "

...

Tyrion grinned at him. "That's good, bastard. Most men would rather deny a hard truth than face it."
 
"Most men," the boy said. "But not you."
 
"No," Tyrion admitted, "not me. I seldom even dream of dragons anymore. There are no dragons." He scooped up the fallen bearskin. "Come, we had better return to camp before your uncle calls the banners."
 
The walk was short, but the ground was rough underfoot and his legs were cramping badly by the time they got back. Jon Snow offered a hand to help him over a thick tangle of roots, but Tyrion shook him off. He would make his own way, as he had all his life. Still, the camp was a welcome sight. The shelters had been thrown up against the tumbledown wall of a long-abandoned holdfast, a shield against the wind. The horses had been fed and a fire had been laid. Yoren sat on a stone, skinning a squirrel. The savory smell of stew filled Tyrion's nostrils. He dragged himself over to where his man Morrec was tending the stewpot. Wordlessly, Morrec handed him the ladle. Tyrion tasted and handed it back. "More pepper," he said.
 
Benjen Stark emerged from the shelter he shared with his nephew. "There you are. Jon, damn it, don't go off like that by yourself. I thought the Others had gotten you."
 
"It was the grumkins," Tyrion told him, laughing. Jon Snow smiled. Stark shot a baffled look at Yoren. The old man grunted, shrugged, and went back to his bloody work.
 
The squirrel gave some body to the stew, and they ate it with black bread and hard cheese that night around their fire. Tyrion shared around his skin of wine until even Yoren grew mellow. One by one the company drifted off to their shelters and to sleep, all but Jon Snow, who had drawn the night's first watch.
 
Tyrion was the last to retire, as always. As he stepped into the shelter his men had built for him, he paused and looked back at Jon Snow. The boy stood near the fire, his face still and hard, looking deep into the flames.
 
Tyrion Lannister smiled sadly and went to bed.
 
ok, first is the mother of Jon reference, irony I'd expect, after all, "what are you reading about?"
Clearly the Dragon in the room is the dragon dreams connecting  Jon and Tyrion which needs addressing here.
But also Jon's "uncle" "calling the banners" is particularly odd, given Benjen has no banners to call, but Ned does.
Also, Benjen tells "his nephew" (true either with Lyanna or ned as a parent) not to wander off by himself, for fear of the Others... this is what happens to Benjen.
apologies for formatting... this site displays things bizzarly when posted...
Edited by LiveFirstDieLater

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39 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

So for those that don't think Jon is Rhaegar's and Lyanna's... do you just dismiss the end of GoT chapter 13?

The boy absorbed that all in silence. He had the Stark face if not the name: long, solemn, guarded, a face that gave nothing away. Whoever his mother had been, she had left little of herself in her son. "What are you reading about?" he asked.
 
"Dragons," Tyrion told him.
 
"What good is that? There are no more dragons," the boy said with the easy certainty of youth.
 
"So they say," Tyrion replied. "Sad, isn't it? When I was your age, used to dream of having a dragon of my own."
 
"You did?" the boy said suspiciously. Perhaps he thought Tyrion was making fun of him.
"No," Jon Snow said, horrified. "I wouldn't . . . "
 
"No? Never?" Tyrion raised an eyebrow. "Well, no doubt the Starks have been terribly good to you. I'm certain Lady Stark treats you as if you were one of her own. And your brother Robb, he's always been kind, and why not? He gets Winterfell and you get the Wall. And your father . . . he must have good reasons for packing you off to the Night's Watch . . . "

...

Tyrion grinned at him. "That's good, bastard. Most men would rather deny a hard truth than face it."
 
"Most men," the boy said. "But not you."
 
"No," Tyrion admitted, "not me. I seldom even dream of dragons anymore. There are no dragons." He scooped up the fallen bearskin. "Come, we had better return to camp before your uncle calls the banners."
 
The walk was short, but the ground was rough underfoot and his legs were cramping badly by the time they got back. Jon Snow offered a hand to help him over a thick tangle of roots, but Tyrion shook him off. He would make his own way, as he had all his life. Still, the camp was a welcome sight. The shelters had been thrown up against the tumbledown wall of a long-abandoned holdfast, a shield against the wind. The horses had been fed and a fire had been laid. Yoren sat on a stone, skinning a squirrel. The savory smell of stew filled Tyrion's nostrils. He dragged himself over to where his man Morrec was tending the stewpot. Wordlessly, Morrec handed him the ladle. Tyrion tasted and handed it back. "More pepper," he said.
 
Benjen Stark emerged from the shelter he shared with his nephew. "There you are. Jon, damn it, don't go off like that by yourself. I thought the Others had gotten you."
 
"It was the grumkins," Tyrion told him, laughing. Jon Snow smiled. Stark shot a baffled look at Yoren. The old man grunted, shrugged, and went back to his bloody work.
 
The squirrel gave some body to the stew, and they ate it with black bread and hard cheese that night around their fire. Tyrion shared around his skin of wine until even Yoren grew mellow. One by one the company drifted off to their shelters and to sleep, all but Jon Snow, who had drawn the night's first watch.
 
Tyrion was the last to retire, as always. As he stepped into the shelter his men had built for him, he paused and looked back at Jon Snow. The boy stood near the fire, his face still and hard, looking deep into the flames.
 
Tyrion Lannister smiled sadly and went to bed.
 
ok, first is the mother of Jon reference, irony I'd expect, after all, "what are you reading about?"
Clearly the Dragon in the room is the dragon dreams connecting  Jon and Tyrion which needs addressing here.
But also Jon's "uncle" "calling the banners" is particularly odd, given Benjen has no banners to call, but Ned does.
apologies for formatting... this site displays things bizzarly when posted...

Although I hate the idea of A+J=T, I defended that theory (:lol:) with specific reference to this particular passage you've quoted, here

I agree with you that the dragon symbolism of both Tyrion and Jon permeates the entire scene.  I analyzed it focusing on one word which for me gave the game away -- 'coiling'!

The 'calling the banners' comment is also ironic, because Tyrion would be Jon's uncle.  

Edited by ravenous reader

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6 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

Although I hate the idea of A+J=T, I defended that theory (:lol:) with specific reference to this particular passage you've quoted, here

I agree with you that the dragon symbolism of both Tyrion and Jon permeates the entire scene.  I analyzed it focusing on one word which for me gave the game away -- 'coiling'!

The 'calling the banners' comment is also ironic, because Tyrion would be Jon's uncle.  

Yes, if A+J=T you get the added irony...

I should have included from the same chapter:

"as it turns out, but life is full of these little ironies."

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48 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

ok, first is the mother of Jon reference

We're certainly led to wonder about Jon's mother, there's absolutely no doubt about this. 

49 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Clearly the Dragon in the room is the dragon dreams connecting  Jon and Tyrion which needs addressing here

Well, it's notable that Jon says he never dreams about dragons. 

This is the exact opposite of "Yes, I definitely dream about dragons."  

And based on canon, Jon sure seems to have been telling the truth. 

Never once... never, in all the Jon POV chapters all through the thousands of pages of AGOT, ACOK, ASOS, and ADWD... does Jon dream of dragons.   He just can't be bothered.  Quite a bit different from, say, Dany, who unquestionably has a dragon fixation when dreaming.

You know what Jon does dream about?  Quite a bit?  The Winterfell crypts.  It's a measure of forum folly that people, as a result, try to interpret the Winterfell crypts as being all about Targs:rolleyes:

1 hour ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Benjen tells "his nephew" (true either with Lyanna or ned as a parent) not to wander off by himself, for fear of the Others... this is what happens to Benjen.

How do you know what happened to Benjen?  He hasn't appeared since AGOT and his fate is unknown.

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46 minutes ago, JNR said:

We're certainly led to wonder about Jon's mother, there's absolutely no doubt about this. 

Well, it's notable that Jon says he never dreams about dragons. 

This is the exact opposite of "Yes, I definitely dream about dragons."  

And based on canon, Jon sure seems to have been telling the truth. 

Never once... never, in all the Jon POV chapters all through the thousands of pages of AGOT, ACOK, ASOS, and ADWD... does Jon dream of dragons.   He just can't be bothered.  Quite a bit different from, say, Dany, who unquestionably has a dragon fixation when dreaming.

You know what Jon does dream about?  Quite a bit?  The Winterfell crypts.  It's a measure of forum folly that people, as a result, try to interpret the Winterfell crypts as being all about Targs:rolleyes:

How do you know what happened to Benjen?  He hasn't appeared since AGOT and his fate is unknown.

Jon's mother is a question...

but Jon is staring into the fire... and he refutes it in the same way he refutes the nights watch being made of killers and rapists... oh wait...

Having a vivid dream of a dragon in Jon's chapter would be a little give away no? But he is staring into the fire just like Tyrion describes... that's cannon.

TheWinterfell Crypts aren't about Targs, not sure why you say that. Dany's dream sure seems to be. It is the manner of the dreams, with rows of what appear to be graves of dead ancestors lining a hall that is so similar... 

Also,

The red door was so far ahead of her, and she could feel the icy breath behind, sweeping up on her. If it caught her she would die a death that was more than death, howling forever alone in the darkness. She began to run.

Dragons don't howl, wolves do... when they lose their pack, the lone wolf dies. (Think back to the Ned sun/moon quote about Arya and Sansa). All Dany has really ever wanted is a home and a family to love. A pack

and I haven't even really started on the House of the Undying... a cup of ice, a cup of fire? 

Benjen wanders off and people (Jon) fears the Other's got him...

That is what has happened so far.

Edited by LiveFirstDieLater

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50 minutes ago, JNR said:

We're certainly led to wonder about Jon's mother, there's absolutely no doubt about this. 

Well, it's notable that Jon says he never dreams about dragons. 

This is the exact opposite of "Yes, I definitely dream about dragons."  

Do you think GRRM is going to spoonfeed us the information in a simple yes-no binary format so we can write up the so-called 'canon' and pack up the forum?

Yes, Jon answers 'no,' but does so defensively, as if he's hiding something -- dragon dreams, mayhaps?

Quote

"So they say," Tyrion replied. "Sad, isn't it? When I was your age, used to dream of having a dragon of my own."

"You did?" the boy said suspiciously. Perhaps he thought Tyrion was making fun of him.

"Oh, yes. Even a stunted, twisted, ugly little boy can look down over the world when he's seated on a dragon's back." Tyrion pushed the bearskin aside and climbed to his feet. "I used to start fires in the bowels of Casterly Rock and stare at the flames for hours, pretending they were dragonfire. Sometimes I'd imagine my father burning. At other times, my sister." Jon Snow was staring at him, a look equal parts horror and fascination. Tyrion guffawed. "Don't look at me that way, bastard. I know your secret. You've dreamt the same kind of dreams."

"No," Jon Snow said, horrified. "I wouldn't . . . "

"No? Never?" Tyrion raised an eyebrow. "Well, no doubt the Starks have been terribly good to you. I'm certain Lady Stark treats you as if you were one of her own. And your brother Robb, he's always been kind, and why not? He gets Winterfell and you get the Wall. And your father . . . he must have good reasons for packing you off to the Night's Watch . . . "

"Stop it," Jon Snow said, his face dark with anger.

Dragons can sense each other.  Tyrion and Jon take turns in this scene waking each other's dragons.

Quote

And based on canon, Jon sure seems to have been telling the truth. 

Never once... never, in all the Jon POV chapters all through the thousands of pages of AGOT, ACOK, ASOS, and ADWD... does Jon dream of dragons.   He just can't be bothered.  Quite a bit different from, say, Dany, who unquestionably has a dragon fixation when dreaming.

We don't see him dreaming of dragons not because he 'can't be bothered', but because GRRM deliberately avoids including those scenes, given that then the paternity would be far too obvious, wouldn't it?  

You can't just approach a text as reality.  It's been fashioned by a sneaky author who likes to keep us in the dark.  Some things have been omitted for just that reason.

In any case, Jon does have what I've termed dreams of 'pyromaniacal lust' in which he dreams of killing everyone in his path, including members of his own family, with fire:

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Jon XII

They are all gone. They have abandoned me.

Burning shafts hissed upward, trailing tongues of fire. Scarecrow brothers tumbled down, black cloaks ablaze. "Snow," an eagle cried, as foemen scuttled up the ice like spiders. Jon was armored in black ice, but his blade burned red in his fist. As the dead men reached the top of the Wall he sent them down to die again. He slew a greybeard and a beardless boy, a giant, a gaunt man with filed teeth, a girl with thick red hair. Too late he recognized Ygritte. She was gone as quick as she'd appeared.

The world dissolved into a red mist. Jon stabbed and slashed and cut. He hacked down Donal Noye and gutted Deaf Dick Follard. Qhorin Halfhand stumbled to his knees, trying in vain to staunch the flow of blood from his neck. "I am the Lord of Winterfell," Jon screamed. It was Robb before him now, his hair wet with melting snow. Longclaw took his head off. Then a gnarled hand seized Jon roughly by the shoulder. He whirled …

ETA:  Jon also thinks of dragons rather vividly here, at the Wall of all places...dragons at the Wall:

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Jon VIII

"Kings and dragons."

Dragons again. For a moment Jon could almost see them too, coiling in the night, their dark wings outlined against a sea of flame

 

Quote

You know what Jon does dream about?  Quite a bit?  The Winterfell crypts.  It's a measure of forum folly that people, as a result, try to interpret the Winterfell crypts as being all about Targs:rolleyes:

Both parents are important.  I'm sure Jon feels drawn to the Winterfell crypts.  That's where Lyanna and the Kings of Winter are buried and Jon is the new King of Winter.  It's also significant that the crypts, like the godswood, are built over a major tectonic, volcanic rift -- ideal environment for dragons!

ETA:  This is the paradox to which we need to reconcile ourselves:  The heart of ice is fire; and vice versa.

Edited by ravenous reader

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3 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Interesting assessment, but I think you are thinking a little literally about the genetics of the Targ hair/eye color. Clearly it doesn't follow rl rules.

For instance why would Aegon (Rheagar-Elia) have the purple eyes and spun silver/gold hair? His sister didn't, other martell/targ offspring don't... in fact there doesn't seem to be much rhyme or reason the the Targ traits being passed down besides that inbreeding makes it more likely.

Even amoung Ned's true born kids the Tully/Stark looks go both ways Arya and Sansa are a perfect example...

"The direwolf," she said, thinking of Nymeria. She hugged her knees against her chest, suddenly afraid.
"Let me tell you something about wolves, child. When the snows fall and the white winds blow, the lone wolf dies, but the pack survives. Summer is the time for squabbles. In winter, we must protect one another, keep each other warm, share our strengths. So if you must hate, Arya, hate those who would truly do us harm. Septa Mordane is a good woman, and Sansa … Sansa is your sister. You may be as different as the sun and the moon, but the same blood flows through both your hearts. You need her, as she needs you … and I need both of you, gods help me." 
He sounded so tired that it made Arya sad. "I don't hate Sansa," she told him. "Not truly." It was only half a lie.
As different as the sun and the moon but with the same blood...
When he kept very still, his leg did not hurt so much, so he did his best to lie unmoving. For how long he could not say. There was no sun and no moon. He could not see to mark the walls. Ned closed his eyes and opened them; it made no difference. He slept and woke and slept again. He did not know which was more painful, the waking or the sleeping. When he slept, he dreamed: dark disturbing dreams of blood and broken promises. When he woke, there was nothing to do but think, and his waking thoughts were worse than nightmares. The thought of Cat was as painful as a bed of nettles. He wondered where she was, what she was doing. He wondered whether he would ever see her again.
Here is where Ned thinks of "broken" promises, where before it was just promises. What changed? Robert sent his assassin after Dany.
Just to reiterate this is the first assassin sent, despite Viserys's stories of "the usurper's hired knives".

If you look at most of targ children with non valyrian features seems to stem from the 1st child who is born of the non targaryan woman.  E.g. Baleor Breakspeer, Duncan the Small, Rhaynes, Jon if r+l=j.  To my knowledge most of the dominant features those of dark phenotypes are the 1st child. 

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The argument that Ned would be afraid of Jon's claim to Winterfell as a bastard (either as his own or as Brandon's) doesn't hold much water when he consider his views on bastard children:

Quote

Cersei could not have been pleased by her lord husband's by-blows, yet in the end it mattered little whether the king had one bastard or a hundred. Law and custom gave the baseborn few rights. Gendry, the girl in the Vale, the boy at Storm's End, none of them could threaten Robert's trueborn children …

Ned's attitude is that bastards - even one raised akin to nobility (Edric Storm) - pose no threat to trueborn children. Whether this is actually the case or not (I think Ned is being a bit naive here) this is Ned's view and completely contradicts the idea that he'd hide Jon's parentage for fear of his claim; Ned doesn't believe bastards have such a claim!

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49 minutes ago, JNR said:

Well, it's notable that Jon says he never dreams about dragons. 

This is the exact opposite of "Yes, I definitely dream about dragons."  

 

26 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

Yes, Jon answers 'no,' but does so defensively, as if he's hiding something -- dragon dreams, mayhaps?

I would agree that Jon is being defensive here, and hiding something, mayhaps dragon dreams. :dunno: 

However, I did not interpret this as him actually denying the dragon dreams, more so the desire, or dream of burning a member of his family. Its quite clear that this is what Tyrion is implying.

So I don't feel like this can be read as him denying that he has dragon dreams, and certainly not proof that he hasn't.

Edited by Darkstream

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19 minutes ago, Darkstream said:

 

I would agree that Jon is being defensive here, and hiding something, mayhaps dragon dreams. :dunno: 

However, I did not interpret this as him actually denying the dragon dreams, more so the desire, or dream of burning a member of his family. Its quite clear that this is what Tyrion is implying.

So I don't feel like this can be read as him denying that he has dragon dreams, and certainly not proof that he hasn't.

I don't know about dragon dreams; although Jon harbors some guilty fantasies and secret thoughts about being the Lord of Winterfell and wielding his father's sword that he might not want anyone to know about.  Perhaps he is defensive about Tyrion's line of questioning about dreams but not dragon dreams specifically.

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9 hours ago, Damein Blackfyre true king said:

<snip>

 

Please edit your comment to get rid of show spoilers. Also, you can't use the show as evidence for anything because everything past season 4 is garbage and nonsense ;) 

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6 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I don't know about dragon dreams; although Jon harbors some guilty fantasies and secret thoughts about being the Lord of Winterfell and wielding his father's sword that he might not want anyone to know about.  Perhaps he is defensive about Tyrion's line of questioning about dreams but not dragon dreams specifically.

Yes, the Tyrion parallel of being "removed" from their own family is the dominant topic here...

All dwarfs are bastards in their father's eyes...

The Sansa/Cersei parallel, in that both treated the "different" member of their family like shit. 

But you can't ignor the dragon part, or the fact that the chapter ends with Jon (while taking the first nights watch no less) is staring into the flames...

Edited by LiveFirstDieLater

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7 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I don't know about dragon dreams; although Jon harbors some guilty fantasies and secret thoughts about being the Lord of Winterfell and wielding his father's sword that he might not want anyone to know about.  Perhaps he is defensive about Tyrion's line of questioning about dreams but not dragon dreams specifically.

Lynn, the whole conversation is about dragons!  You can't ignore the dragons!

Perhaps Jon doesn't have dragon dreams because he has his wolf anchoring him to the Stark side.  It's like those skinchangers who have birds who end up 'staring all moony at the bloody blue'.  The 'host' changes the skinchanger.  If Jon had access to a dragon's egg, instead of a wolf, perhaps the 'dragon side' of his nature would have been emphasized instead.

Edited by ravenous reader

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12 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Not matching childhood memories usually mean that the person is misremembering, not that they are not who they are.

And? Brandon's bastard or Ned's bastard - why claim him as his own then if he was so very dangerous?

Zero hint pointing towards such a marriage, and Brandon's affair with Barbrey directly contradicts this.

Per your own logic, he put Jon in such danger himself by claiming him as his own bastard.

And he never thinks about such a promise, while thinking multiple times about a promise to Lyanna, because...? Besides, making a promise not to reveal Jon's identity =/= a secret too dangerous to share.

There is no legit reason within the books. Existence of bastards does not threaten alliances, or do you have a quote to point otherwise? Did the existence of Ramsay, a very real threat because of his age and inclination, somehow prevent the Freys' alliance with Boltons?

And how is Jon a threat to this alliance fourteen years later? Come on. At the time of AGOT, Jon as Brandon's bastard is not a secret too dangerous to share with those one loves and trusts, and even if Ned was not sure about Cat, why lie to his BFF Robert? 

 

To make myself perfectly clear: Jon as B+A's bastard would be uncomfortable for Ned (and Cat) but not dangerous, and a dead betrothed's bastard is in no way more uncomfortable than your very husband's bastard. It is not a dangerous secret, though, and Ned is not a man who would lie to avoid discomfort.

Dany remembers very specific details that don't match up with our "knowledge" of her childhood, namely living in a big house with carved wooden beams with a lemon tree in Braavos, which is clearly not a thing in Braavos.

The son of Brandon potentially comes before Ned in the line of succession. Ned's bastard would at the very least come after Ned himself, and it would be hard to push Jon's claim ahead of Ned's trueborn children.

I think he keeps thinking about his promise to Lyanna because the promise was about Dany, and Ned's relationship to Dany changes throughout AGOT. On the other hand, his relationship to Jon is totally unchanged after Jon heads to the Wall for the rest of the book, but Ned still thinks about his promise to Lyanna for some reason, as if he can actually take actions in KL related to said promise.

Well, I think Ramsay forced his father's hand to send the Freys out to die and is going to kill Roose soon. So Ramsay might actually be a great example of bastards destroying alliances. Jon wouldn't prevent the Stark-Tully alliance, but he could be a threat down the line. For example, let's take a hypothetical scenario where Jon never went to the Wall and also hated his siblings because of how Cat treated him his entire life. The Wot5K breaks out. What if Joffrey decided to legitimize Jon and the Boltons back Jon to be Lord of WF? BAM! Problems... That danger is mitigated by claiming Jon is Ned's bastard instead of Brandon's.

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49 minutes ago, WSmith84 said:

The argument that Ned would be afraid of Jon's claim to Winterfell as a bastard (either as his own or as Brandon's) doesn't hold much water when he consider his views on bastard children:

Ned's attitude is that bastards - even one raised akin to nobility (Edric Storm) - pose no threat to trueborn children. Whether this is actually the case or not (I think Ned is being a bit naive here) this is Ned's view and completely contradicts the idea that he'd hide Jon's parentage for fear of his claim; Ned doesn't believe bastards have such a claim!

I'll concede this is probably the strongest point against the possibility of Ned hiding Jon's parentage due to the threat to the Tully alliance. That said, there is no way Ned is totally ignorant about the Blackfyre rebellions. Bastards may not have a claim, but legitimized bastards certainly do. He may have been assuming in his head that Robert would never legitimize his bastards in the manner of Aegon IV, but it's hard to say for sure what Ned thought about Jon.

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4 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

Lynn, the whole conversation is about dragons!  You can't ignore the dragons!

Perhaps Jon doesn't have dragon dreams because he has his wolf anchoring him to the Stark side.  It's like those skinchangers who have birds who end up 'staring all moony at the bloody blue'.  The 'host' changes the skinchanger.  If Jon had access to a dragon's egg, instead of a wolf, perhaps the 'dragon side' of his nature would have been emphasized instead.

All we know is that Jon is defensive about his dreams when Tyrion brings it up. He could be defensive about something other than dragons for example something he considers a dirty secret about his place as a bastard and wishing he was something else.  In particular that he was Lord of Winterfell instead of his brother.  He thinks about it privately.  That can't be ignored.  He also has hero fantasies about Daeren Targaryen, the boy prince his favorite story:
 

Quote

 

A Game of Thrones - Jon I

"That's true enough," Benjen said with a downward twist of his mouth. He took Jon's cup from the table, filled it fresh from a nearby pitcher, and drank down a long swallow.

"Daeren Targaryen was only fourteen when he conquered Dorne," Jon said. The Young Dragon was one of his heroes.

"A conquest that lasted a summer," his uncle pointed out. "Your Boy King lost ten thousand men taking the place, and another fifty trying to hold it. Someone should have told him that war isn't a game." He took another sip of wine. "Also," he said, wiping his mouth, "Daeren Targaryen was only eighteen when he died. Or have you forgotten that part?"

 

That doesn't make Jon a dragon dreamer any more than Arya's favorite story makes her Queen Nymeria.

I don't think Jon wants Tyrion probing into his private thoughts and it has little to do with dragons.  Even if it did, all this would prove is that most children would fantasize about the stories they hear, substituting themselves for their heroes.

Edit:  This is what Tyrion says to Jon that both horrifies and fascinates him:

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A Game of Thrones - Tyrion II

"So they say," Tyrion replied. "Sad, isn't it? When I was your age, I used to dream of having a dragon of my own."

 

"You did?" the boy said suspiciously. Perhaps he thought Tyrion was making fun of him.

"Oh, yes. Even a stunted, twisted, ugly little boy can look down over the world when he's seated on a dragon's back." Tyrion pushed the bearskin aside and climbed to his feet. "I used to start fires in the bowels of Casterly Rock and stare at the flames for hours, pretending they were dragonfire. Sometimes I'd imagine my father burning. At other times, my sister." Jon Snow was staring at him, a look equal parts horror and fascination. Tyrion guffawed. "Don't look at me that way, bastard. I know your secret. You've dreamt the same kind of dreams."

 

The secret that Tyrion knows about Jon is that Jon resents being a bastard; not that he dreams of dragons.  As Tyrion points out to him, all dwarfs are bastards in their father's eyes and that rejection is something they have in common.
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A Storm of Swords - Jon XII

And then the years were gone, and he was back at Winterfell once more, wearing a quilted leather coat in place of mail and plate. His sword was made of wood, and it was Robb who stood facing him, not Iron Emmett.

Every morning they had trained together, since they were big enough to walk; Snow and Stark, spinning and slashing about the wards of Winterfell, shouting and laughing, sometimes crying when there was no one else to see. They were not little boys when they fought, but knights and mighty heroes. "I'm Prince Aemon the Dragonknight," Jon would call out, and Robb would shout back, "Well, I'm Florian the Fool." Or Robb would say, "I'm the Young Dragon," and Jon would reply, "I'm Ser Ryam Redwyne."

That morning he called it first. "I'm Lord of Winterfell!" he cried, as he had a hundred times before. Only this time, this time, Robb had answered, "You can't be Lord of Winterfell, you're bastard-born. My lady mother says you can't ever be the Lord of Winterfell."

 

 

 

Edited by LynnS

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10 minutes ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

Dany remembers very specific details that don't match up with our "knowledge" of her childhood, namely living in a big house with carved wooden beams with a lemon tree in Braavos, which is clearly not a thing in Braavos.

The son of Brandon potentially comes before Ned in the line of succession. Ned's bastard would at the very least come after Ned himself, and it would be hard to push Jon's claim ahead of Ned's trueborn children.

I think he keeps thinking about his promise to Lyanna because the promise was about Dany, and Ned's relationship to Dany changes throughout AGOT. On the other hand, his relationship to Jon is totally unchanged after Jon heads to the Wall for the rest of the book, but Ned still thinks about his promise to Lyanna for some reason, as if he can actually take actions in KL related to said promise.

Well, I think Ramsay forced his father's hand to send the Freys out to die and is going to kill Roose soon. So Ramsay might actually be a great example of bastards destroying alliances. Jon wouldn't prevent the Stark-Tully alliance, but he could be a threat down the line. For example, let's take a hypothetical scenario where Jon never went to the Wall and also hated his siblings because of how Cat treated him his entire life. The Wot5K breaks out. What if Joffrey decided to legitimize Jon and the Boltons back Jon to be Lord of WF? BAM! Problems... That danger is mitigated by claiming Jon is Ned's bastard instead of Brandon's.

You sound like Cat... not my favorite character... and not like Ned.

 
"No more than Theon Greyjoy would harm Bran or Rickon?"
Grey Wind leapt up atop King Tristifer's crypt, his teeth bared. Robb's own face was cold. "That is as cruel as it is unfair. Jon is no Theon." 
"So you pray. Have you considered your sisters? What of their rights? I agree that the north must not be permitted to pass to the Imp, but what of Arya? By law, she comes after Sansa . . . your own sister, trueborn . . ."
Edited by LiveFirstDieLater

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1 minute ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

You sound like Cat... not my favorite character...

 
"No more than Theon Greyjoy would harm Bran or Rickon?"
Grey Wind leapt up atop King Tristifer's crypt, his teeth bared. Robb's own face was cold. "That is as cruel as it is unfair. Jon is no Theon." 
"So you pray. Have you considered your sisters? What of their rights? I agree that the north must not be permitted to pass to the Imp, but what of Arya? By law, she comes after Sansa . . . your own sister, trueborn . . ."

LOL well... Cat's perspective is probably the most relevant when it comes to questions of Jon being a threat to the Tully alliance

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