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Wolf's Bane

Daenerys, Drogon, and the Dothraki are AWESOME!

117 posts in this topic

1 hour ago, Illiterati said:

Tyrion is a political adviser who has no business recommending military strategy.  I believe this sequence of events is intended to highlight that before Jorah steps back into the picture.

Jorah is the perfect man for the job.  He's loyal to Daenerys and he has a lot of battle experience.

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Don't forget that the Dothraki could (and normally would, I assume) harass the ever living hell out of pikemen and other problematic opponents. Iirc they pretty much all carry bows, so the sheer mass of arrows they could bring to bear (barring the range discussion) should be easily enough to out-shoot any Westerosi army so they don't even have to charge to win a battle. To me it seems they like to do it, when they are sure of winning and want to make a quick end to the enemy or make a point. And sometimes that does not work out, as it happened with the Unsullied.

I know they are not very much like Mongols, the very obvious parallels aside, but their role is to fulfill the trope of the horse-archer faction anyway. And that trope means that they are pretty much unbeatable (open field of course) hit-and-run masters, that rain death and then ride down the survivors.

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11 minutes ago, haemonculus said:

Don't forget that the Dothraki could (and normally would, I assume) harass the ever living hell out of pikemen and other problematic opponents. Iirc they pretty much all carry bows, so the sheer mass of arrows they could bring to bear (barring the range discussion) should be easily enough to out-shoot any Westerosi army so they don't even have to charge to win a battle. To me it seems they like to do it, when they are sure of winning and want to make a quick end to the enemy or make a point. And sometimes that does not work out, as it happened with the Unsullied.

I know they are not very much like Mongols, the very obvious parallels aside, but their role is to fulfill the trope of the horse-archer faction anyway. And that trope means that they are pretty much unbeatable (open field of course) hit-and-run masters, that rain death and then ride down the survivors.

And their bows can hit from greater range. 

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Posted (edited)

I'm not going to lie, the Dothraki charge and Drogon flying around burning everything in reach did look amazing from a purely visual standpoint, as did the chaos that ensued once the Lannister line was broken. In addition, the way that Jaime refused to simply fall back to King's Landing and abandon his troops as well as picking up the spear and charging Dany even when it was clear the battle was lost and such a charge would kill him in all probability greatly increased my opinion of him, particularly because it demonstrates just how devoted he's become to his family and their cause by this stage. It would have killed him but if he'd managed to spear Dany the war would have been over and the Lannister's would have won. I also couldn't help but be reminded of Henry de Bohun's charge at Robert the Bruce at the battle of the Bannockburn which for me as a history nerd is great. 

 

However, from a logical standpoint, I don't think this can be taken as a showing of the Dothraki's capabilities in an open field. They had every advantage they could possibly have: they caught the Lannister army on the march and so strung out and without proper time to prepare for a mass cavalry charge, meaning they had to make do with a relatively thin shield wall, not to mention a dragon and being outnumbered, quite heavily by the looks of it. Faced with all that, I think this battle says far more about the courage and discipline of the Lannister infantry, who held their ground in spite of the impossible odds and put up a good fight despite facing a dragon. We see that in the way the Lannister archers form up for a volley at Drogon. They probably knew their arrows had little chance of hitting Dany and next to no chance of wounding Drogon but they still formed up when Jaime ordered them to and loosed a volley at Drogon, also knowing full well this would put them in Drogon's line of fire and draw Dany's attention to them. That take's a spectacular amount of courage and discipline. 

 

However, the minute the shield wall was broken the Lannister's were doomed. I like how in the few shots we see of the Dothraki hitting unbroken sections of the Lannister line, they don't actually seem to be faring all that well, which is just what should happen when light cavalry hit disciplined heavy infantry. By contrast, the Dothraki fare much better in smaller scale combats where it comes down more to individual skill than discipline which helps highlight the main Dothraki advantage over Westerosi infantry: the Dothraki have been training for war since childhood and so are more skilled in individual combat than the Westerosi, who are used to fighting in formation as a unit. 

Edited by Lord Giggles

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On 8/6/2017 at 10:22 PM, Wolf's Bane said:

I love that Dothraki telling Tyrion "your people can't fight".  That will put to rest any question of which people are better in battle.  The Dothraki will beat the Westerosi in open combat.  Bronn deserves to die for what he did, that bastard.  I hope he's dead.

:agree:

On 8/6/2017 at 10:37 PM, Agent Orange said:

The Dothraki were fabulous tonight!  I have always liked them but tonight gave me an even greater appreciation for them.  I love how they're loyal to their Khaleesi. 

The actors were great on horseback.  This battle was perfect and the best one we have seen on the show. 

I'm rather fond of the Dothraki and found them always interesting. 

On 8/7/2017 at 0:23 AM, robasp2 said:

Apparently even a dragon can't handle Jamie and Bronn's plot armour

That is a pity.  HBO's anti-Dany fan service at work.  Those two asses should have died in that battle. 

On 8/7/2017 at 1:40 AM, HellasLEAF said:

The dragon looked fantastic and very realistic in combat.  

Better than any film I have seen.  

Indeed.  That is one thing that the show gets right. 

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I'm still laughing at the show doing an important* battle scene with the dragons before the books, and doing it so well, too. Serves George right for being so damn slow and focusing on things no one wants to read like the "History of the Inbred Mary Sues" or whatever. 

* I don't consider the battle at Slaver's Bay important because, let's be honest, no one gives a fuck about that, in any medium. 

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On 8/6/2017 at 10:59 PM, El Guapo said:

"only a fool would meet the Dothraki in an open filed" -Robert Baratheon

Though it does help with they have air support.

 

And Robert is accounted a knowledgeable military man.  Absolutely on point.

Air support is great and it can win battles.  Maintaining control afterwards require boots on the ground.  Enter The Unsullied.  I also agree with the thread topic "Bring Back Daario Naharis".

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8 hours ago, Lockjaw of House Boltagon said:

I'm still laughing at the show doing an important* battle scene with the dragons before the books, and doing it so well, too. Serves George right for being so damn slow and focusing on things no one wants to read like the "History of the Inbred Mary Sues" or whatever. 

* I don't consider the battle at Slaver's Bay important because, let's be honest, no one gives a fuck about that, in any medium. 

I care about the battle at the Bay of Dragons.  It's a very important event for the most important character in the story, Daenerys Targaryen.  It's the battle for winterfell that I don't care about.

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On 8/7/2017 at 9:22 AM, OldGimletEye said:

Yeah it would seem that the Lannister infantry has been portrayed as being fairly good infantry. And after seeing that many didn't break ranks, after seeing a dragon flyin' around roasting many of their comrades, you might say they were very good infantry. So, I am not seeing how they get just get mowed down by light calvary unless they were massively outnumbered.

According to the show they were massively outnumbered (even if Danny did not used all Dothrakis, they would be at least 3:1).

It looks to me that the reason Danny burned the wagons is because they were in a line behind the lines of defense, protecting the rear of the spears and shields. With this, the cavalry would surround and the formation is lost.

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6 minutes ago, King Louis II (KLII) said:

According to the show they were massively outnumbered (even if Danny did not used all Dothrakis, they would be at least 3:1).

It looks to me that the reason Danny burned the wagons is because they were in a line behind the lines of defense, protecting the rear of the spears and shields. With this, the cavalry would surround and the formation is lost.

It was imperative to prevent those supplies from reaching Cersei.  Any siege of King's Landing will be ineffective if the Lannisters had those supplies.    By the way, that loot train did not look to have enough supplies to support a large army for any reasonable amount of time but losing it will be enough to make Cersei hurt.

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45 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

It was imperative to prevent those supplies from reaching Cersei.  Any siege of King's Landing will be ineffective if the Lannisters had those supplies.    By the way, that loot train did not look to have enough supplies to support a large army for any reasonable amount of time but losing it will be enough to make Cersei hurt.

Wagons are really slow, so to capture them, and use the supplies to feed Danny's army seems to be the way to go i.m.o.

Thats why I think it is more logic to me that the rationale or more to open the lines of defense than anything else.

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Dany + Drogon + Dothraki + Unsullied = Team Awesome

I very much want to see this team crush Cersei and Jaime. 

 

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On 8/11/2017 at 2:12 AM, Wm Portnoy said:

Dany + Drogon + Dothraki + Unsullied = Team Awesome

I very much want to see this team crush Cersei and Jaime. 

 

I would love to see this team rule over all of Essos and Westeros.  Bring painful deaths to Jaime, Cersei, Euron, the Tarlys, and Bronn.

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On 08/08/2017 at 11:39 PM, mr.archanfel said:

Several questions:

1. How big was the Lannister army? Looks to be no more than a few hundreds troops, but it's a TV show, so do they represent 10,000 soldiers? Did the Lannisters lose most of their army? 

2. Why didn't Jaime have outriders? You would think he should have learned his lesson from the battle of riverrun. 

3. The dragon is certainly a great weapon of terror, but other than creating fear and breaking formations, would it be effective against a disciplined army (say the army of the dead, fire weakness aside)? Exactly how many soldiers did Drogon kill? It seems a catapult firing flaming ball would do similar damages. 

4. Why didn't they have more anti-dragon weapons? What would be the best way to fight dragons? Flying net? Crossbows against the rider?

1. I don't think it was all. You can count, though, from the overhead shots and it looks to be in the thousands - but not 10000. I think half or more is in KL. No official word, though.

2. Yeah. The dramaturgy demanded the thundering hooves. Jaime or Tarly would never have been caught their pants down in a realistic scenario. On the other hand, Drogon dropping from the clouds and Jaime's face going shit i think they are real - and here, was almost worth it, imo.

3. Discipline didn't do nothing for the Lannisters as Dragon fire was so hot that they incinerated and turned to ash behind their shields. Unless there is more dramaturgy needs (see above) I think it was shown that there is no defence against dragons apart from shooting them down and killing them.

4. I am pretty sure there are more in the battlements of the KL. It would be utterly stupid not to have more.

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On 8/11/2017 at 2:12 AM, Wm Portnoy said:

Dany + Drogon + Dothraki + Unsullied = Team Awesome

I very much want to see this team crush Cersei and Jaime. 

 

Right on.  Let me add, I want to see them force Sansa and the North to kneel.

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On 8/7/2017 at 1:30 AM, A Ghost of Someone said:

Well, what Ido know is that his soft, subtle advice has only worked to his sister's favor and he is adamant about not using her heavier weapons to win quickly. The Queen of Thorns had the right of it all.  Funny, the last time King's Landing was sacked was when Tywin betrayed Aerys and rape and pillage went down. That was Tyrion's people, the Lannisters.  I have no respect for any Lannister and the Imp ought to be replaced as Dany's hand but she won't.

Tyrion should be fired in favor of Jorah.  

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2 hours ago, Ian Dunross said:

Right on.  Let me add, I want to see them force Sansa and the North to kneel.

Sansa would soil her pants the moment a white walker gets close.  At least she would if the show remains consistent with her character.

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