Discussing Sansa XXXI: The plot thickens...

[a free shadow]

Seven hells.

[Lord Okra]

19 minutes ago, a free shadow said:

That is untrue.

First, what puts Arya into action is not the past, but the present. The questionable way Sansa handles mutinous lords.

Second, we have not seen Arya preventing Sansa from explaining, because we have not seen Sansa attempting to explain. She has apologized to Jon for treating him badly before, she did not apologize to Arya.

Third, it would be curious to suggest that previous actions should not figure into an opinion. All other things aside, one of the last things Arya remembers is how Sansa had no regrets for choosing to lie for Joffrey against Mycah. Her experience says that if someone falls between Sansa and her ticket to nice things, they might need protection.

Third, it is a bad outcome that this thread is questioning the characters rather than the shoddy writing.

We don't see Sansa being mean to Arya in the show.

What we see in the early scenes is Arya being mean to Sansa.

Is Sansa supposed to apologize to Arya for Arya throwing food at her?

 

[Pandean]

35 minutes ago, a free shadow said:

That is untrue.

First, what puts Arya into action is not the past, but the present. The questionable way Sansa handles mutinous lords.

Second, we have not seen Arya preventing Sansa from explaining, because we have not seen Sansa attempting to explain. She has apologized to Jon for treating him badly before, she did not apologize to Arya.

Third, it would be curious to suggest that previous actions should not figure into an opinion. All other things aside, one of the last things Arya remembers is how Sansa had no regrets for choosing to lie for Joffrey against Mycah. Her experience says that if someone falls between Sansa and her ticket to nice things, they might need protection.

Third, it is a bad outcome that this thread is questioning the characters rather than the shoddy writing.

This is legit what a judgment is though.

[Illiterati]

24 minutes ago, Lord Okra said:

We don't see Sansa being mean to Arya in the show.

What we see in the early scenes is Arya being mean to Sansa.

Is Sansa supposed to apologize to Arya for Arya throwing food at her?

 

When she was what, 10?

[Lothar]

Arya was my favorite character throughout the books and show, but they've made me not like her this season at all.  She was the last character I really liked.  I don't know why they're deciding to write her like she's 9 years old again, having her complain about Sansa's room and saying to behead people for feeling let down by Jon.  She's actually never been this much of a childish brat in the book or the show.  It makes no sense that she would turn into this after everything she's been through.  The Stark kids should be closer than ever after everything they've lost and suffered.  They should appreciate the value of the remaining family they have left, and indeed, Arya chose to go back home thinking of her family, so what is this?  It's like different parts of the show are written by different writers that don't talk to each other.

As for Sansa, I don't post much, but I posted heavily in this Sansa Discussion defending her actions in Season 5.  Since that time, it really bothered me her lack of emotional reaction to Rickon's death, keeping her plans secret from Jon last season, and I didn't like how she argued with Jon in front of everyone twice.  That's about all she's done other than have awkward reunions that leave me feeling cold.  She's just been okay.  When I defended her in Season 5, I really thought she would be a lot better.  She would be clever and devising plots, coming up with smart ways to get revenge on Freys, she would be the leader of the north.  When Sansa got back, they would be working together, all of the childish bickering they did when they were little being a distant memory. 

It would have been such a nice change of pace if Sansa and Arya were bonding, showing how they matured, enjoying a bit of happiness having an ally at home after being alone for so long. Instead this forced painful tension has to be invented and Arya has to regress to being 9 just to give us something no one wants to see.

[Lord Okra]

9 minutes ago, Illiterati said:

When she was what, 10?

Does it matter?

The poster expected an apology from Sansa but we don't see Sansa being mean to Arya.  We see Arya being mean to Sansa.

I don't think Sansa expects an apology.  Only Sansa haters seem to think she should apologize.....for what, I haven't a clue.

[Illiterati]

2 minutes ago, Lord Okra said:

Does it matter?

The poster expected an apology from Sansa but we don't see Sansa being mean to Arya.  We see Arya being mean to Sansa.

I don't think Sansa expects an apology.  Only Sansa haters seem to think she should apologize.....for what, I haven't a clue.

Sansa sold out Ned, Arya, and the entire family for a chance to be queen.  That's something one might apologize for, once they grew up and realized what they had done.....

[Lord Okra]

6 minutes ago, Illiterati said:

Sansa sold out Ned, Arya, and the entire family for a chance to be queen.  That's something one might apologize for, once they grew up and realized what they had done.....

So you are mad when Ned wasn't mad?

Sold them out?  Ned Stark arranged for Sansa to marry Joffrey.

She's to apologize for trying to stay alive and save her dad?  Arya shouldn't apologize cause she was 10 but Sansa should because she was 14???????

Double standard much?  Much too much.

[Illiterati]

6 minutes ago, Lord Okra said:

So you are mad when Ned wasn't mad?

Sold them out?  Ned Stark arranged for Sansa to marry Joffrey.

She's to apologize for trying to stay alive and save her dad?  Arya shouldn't apologize cause she was 10 but Sansa should because she was 14???????

Double standard much?  Much too much.

No, I'm not mad at all.  What happened, happened.  She was a little girl and she did what she did.  But to suggest that throwing food in her face was egregious and what she did to her family (not realizing the consequences) was cool because Ned understood....that just boggles my mind.

 

And Ned had no clue the monster that Joffrey was when he betrothed Sansa.

[a free shadow]

Eight hells.

[Lord Okra]

9 minutes ago, Illiterati said:

No, I'm not mad at all.  What happened, happened.  She was a little girl and she did what she did.  But to suggest that throwing food in her face was egregious and what she did to her family (not realizing the consequences) was cool because Ned understood....that just boggles my mind.

 

And Ned had no clue the monster that Joffrey was when he betrothed Sansa.

I didn't suggest throwing food was egregious.  I said that in the scenes we were given it was Arya who was the one being hateful and mean, not Sansa.

It is my position that no apologies are needed by either side.  They were kids.....like Jon Snow said to Sansa...

Sansa, "I was awful. Forgive me."

Jon Snow, "We were kids, there is nothing to forgive."

Sansa, "Forgive me."

************************

There is no reason to ask for or to expect an apology.

Arya was a kid who gave her big sis a bunch of grief.  So what.  Sansa shows no signs in show of holding on to that....and she shouldn't because Arya was a little girl who was just antagonizing her big sister all the time like children are known to do.

Arya does seem to still be holding onto her dislike of Sansa but that fits Arya I suppose.  It doesn't matter anyway.  Only forum Sansa haters expect apologies from Sansa because she did what she'd probably been taught.

"Sansa is to be Joffrey's wife.  She can never go against him."  Ned Stark

[Illiterati]

Worst than hatefulness is to take the course of action that benefits you with no regard for others, parttcularly family.  She flat out lied through her teeth about the confrontation by the river, and it cost an innocent boy his life.

Again, she was a kid.  But she's grown up now.  Surely she understands by now that it was a REALLY horrible thing she did.

[Lothar]

16 minutes ago, a free shadow said:

What happened to Mycah is plenty, to have a dire need of an apology and issues of trust. If you would like to equate it with throwing food, then you are not making an argument.

The order for blame for what happened to Mycah is Hound, Joffrey, Arya herself, every adult character in the area, then maybe Sansa at the end.

5 minutes ago, Illiterati said:

Worst than hatefulness is to take the course of action that benefits you with no regard for others, parttcularly family.  She flat out lied through her teeth about the confrontation by the river, and it cost an innocent boy his life.

Again, she was a kid.  But she's grown up now.  Surely she understands by now that it was a REALLY horrible thing she did.

Ned understood why she had to say what she said.  Why don't you?

[Pandean]

Even NED said after that Mycah situation though that Sansa isn't able to go against Joffrey as he is the Prince and her betrothed and going against that is tantamount to treason. Even Ned knew that Sansa had no choice.

__

Why are we debating season 1 anyway? Seriously. They're different characters now and we shouldn't hold Arya or Sansa to who they were before.

[Illiterati]

2 minutes ago, Pandean said:

Even NED said after that Mycah situation though that Sansa isn't able to go against Joffrey as he is the Prince and her betrothed and going against that is tantamount to treason. Even Ned knew that Sansa had no choice.

__

Why are we debating season 1 anyway? Seriously. They're different characters now and we shouldn't hold Arya or Sansa to who they were before.

We are all what we were, plus experience.  The core of their personalities seems the same as before to me.

[Pandean]

1 hour ago, a free shadow said:

\\\

22 minutes ago, a free shadow said:

What happened to Mycah is plenty, to have a dire need of an apology and issues of trust. If you would like to equate it with throwing food, then you are not making an argument.

If you mean "judgement" as in "consideration", then yes. Arya is considering all information that is available to her, first new, then old, and also putting it all in front of Sansa. But it seems that you mean it as in "judgemental".

Would Davos be "judgemental" if he investigates Melisandre after meeting her again and overhearing her mentioning a blood sacrifice, out of context? She is changed now and would not do things she did before. This is a rather loaded example, but no other "changed" character came to mind.

Even Ned said that Sansa was not able to go against the Prince and her betrothed's words. To call the Prince a liar is considered treason. Ned literally said "Sansa is to be Joffrey's wife. She must take his side even when he's wrong."

She is making a judgment due to the things she thinks she might know. And I think that the old things she thinks she knows colors the way she sees the new things. That is making a judgment.

Davos is making a judgment over what Melisandre is up to. 

Judgments or being judgmental is not necessarily a terrible character flaw.

People who feel strongly tend to make more judgments over certain issues. I'm not saying Arya is some terrible snobby judgmental holier-than-thou person. I'm saying she lets her intense feelings and the way she interprets things color her thoughts without leaving much wiggle room.

That's not a terrible thing. Maybe people do it.

[Pandean]

Just now, Illiterati said:

We are all what we were, plus experience.  The core of their personalities seems the same as before to me.

I would have to disagree. Sansa is not the naive spoiled girl from Season 1. Arya is not the free, wild child from season 1.

Both have changed, whether for the better or for the worst.

[Illiterati]

And I still say that Arya is cool with Sansa, she's just acting this out to play LF.

[Raksha 2014]

19 minutes ago, Illiterati said:

Worst than hatefulness is to take the course of action that benefits you with no regard for others, parttcularly family.  She flat out lied through her teeth about the confrontation by the river, and it cost an innocent boy his life.

Again, she was a kid.  But she's grown up now.  Surely she understands by now that it was a REALLY horrible thing she did.

 

As I remember, in the books, Cersei sent Sandor out to kill poor Mycah before Sansa gave her testimony.  Whatever Sansa said would not have saved the boy.  I doubt that Cersei would have spared Lady even if Sansa had told the truth.

[Illiterati]

4 minutes ago, Raksha 2014 said:

 

As I remember, in the books, Cersei sent Sandor out to kill poor Mycah before Sansa gave her testimony.  Whatever Sansa said would not have saved the boy.  I doubt that Cersei would have spared Lady even if Sansa had told the truth.

This is a good point.