Discussing Sansa XXXI: The plot thickens...

[Gaz0680]

Arya wasnt particularly fond of Sansa and I never said she was. But Sansa wasn't fond of Arya either so the feeling was mutual.

Your point was that Arya was mean to Sansa and I urged you to support that statement with evidence but you couldn't. 

There is a difference between two characters not particularly liking each other or having a strong bond.to one being mean to the other. 

Arya hasn't been mean to Sansa at all in show (the food fling doesnt count as 'mean') and if you believe she has, I think you are misinterpreting the situation.

The writers wanted is to understand the two sisters weren't close, but there were no himts at all in show that one picked on the other or deliberately provoked them out of spite. That would be mean. But IN SHOW neither sister was mean to other they just werent fond of each other.

[Lord Okra]

3 minutes ago, Gaz0680 said:

Arya wasnt particularly fond of Sansa and I never said she was. But Sansa wasn't fond of Arya either so the feeling was mutual.

Your point was that Arya was mean to Sansa and I urged you to support that statement with evidence but you couldn't. 

There is a difference between two characters not particularly liking each other or having a strong bond.to one being mean to the other. 

Arya hasn't been mean to Sansa at all in show (the food fling doesnt count as 'mean') and if you believe she has, I think you are misinterpreting the situation.

The writers wanted is to understand the two sisters weren't close, but there were no himts at all in show that one picked on the other or deliberately provoked them out of spite. That would be mean. But IN SHOW neither sister was mean to other they just werent fond of each other.

Look, I supported it with Arya's own words.

I'll list a couple of instances again for you.

Arya throws food at Sansa.

Sansa tells a story about Arya sewing sheep manure into her bed.

That's two instances from in show where Arya was being mean to Sansa.  I didn't say we had 37 instances.  And it wasn't a theme on the show.  I'm not saying that Arya was mean to Sansa all the time.  I was countering this argument that Sansa was mean to Arya when that is not in the show.  The only mean we have examples of in the show are the few instances revealed where Arya was being mean to Sansa.

And I do think throwing food on your sister is mean when you are in the middle of a royal banquet.

I do think sewing up crap into someone's bed is mean.

Unforgivable?  Nope, not that.  A mean joke to play on your sister......yep.....something kids do when they are jealous or mad......yep.

In the show Arya and Sansa didn't like each other as kids.  It is just part of the story and it is no reason not to like either character.  These are two of my favorite characters (Arya in particular).  But I do love some Sansa as well.....

I'm glad they have some drama continuing from their childhood.  It makes that scene where Arya did throw food was put in to help develop something in the story that would culminate many years later.  That's good stuff.

Arya and Sansa brought baggage from their childhood relationship with them to start out this current relationship that is developing.  LF is using that past to attempt to drive a wedge.  It is all going to bring them closer than ever before.....I'm hoping.

 

 

[Gaz0680]

25 minutes ago, Pandean said:

Sewing shit into her bed (apparently multiple times)

Fling food

Pulling on Sansa's hair and beating her back with her fists

Mocking Sansa's femininity/having babies/etc.

Saying she hates Sansa

Reluctantly acknowledging she's part of her family

Treating her like a traitor because she has the master bedroom

 

1. Yes, Arya did that when she was angry with Sansa but we don't know why she was angry with Sansa and whether Sansa deserved it. She didnt do it for no reason.

2. Arya was a child. Flinging the bit of food was fun mischief which I think the show made pretty clear. There was zero malice in that and it wasnt 'mean' in any way.

3. Sansa brought that on herself. Arya wasn't able to control her emotions, but her reaction was 100% understandable. Sansa had just blatantly lied to the King and court at the expense of Arya and her friend. There was more actual meanness there (theough niaivety) for Sansa's part than Arya's.

4. Wtf? Because Arya said two words "Seven Hells" when Sansa was spouting her idealistic crap about being queen marrying joffrey and having his little demon spawn babies, you think she was being mean?? I think Arya was more referring to how horrible that scenario was and how hellish it would be for her (Arya) not Sansa.

5. Yes Arya included Sansas name when she said "I hate them all. Joffrey, the Hound, the Queen and the King..and Sansa" but as we know from her statement after she didnt mean it re Sansa. She had genuine reasons to be angry at Sansa at that time though.

6. "Reluctantly acknowledging shes part of her family" lol that is just pure bullshit and you are stretching and twisting the meaning of Arya adding Sansa last ridiculously. Also, how is that mean??

7. Aryas problem with Sansa had absolutely ZERO to do with the master bedroom and if you think it did, sorry but you are just wrong. Her problem with Sansa was to do with jer loyalty to Jon and again, there was no meanness.

All 7 examples you just cited dont prove anything.

[Lord Okra]

22 minutes ago, Gaz0680 said:

1. Yes, Arya did that when she was angry with Sansa but we don't know why she was angry with Sansa and whether Sansa deserved it.

2. Arya was a child. Flinging the bit of food was fun mischief which I think the show made pretty clear. There was zero malice in that and it wasnt 'mean' in any way.

3. Sansa brought that on herself. Arya wasn't able to control her emotions, but her reaction was 100% understandable. Sansa had just blatantly lied to the King and court at the expense of Arya and her friend. There was more actual meanness there (theough niaivety) for Sansa's part than Arya's.

4. Wtf? Because Arya said two words "Seven Hells" when Sansa was spouting her idealistic crap about being queen marrying joffrey and having his little demon spawn babies, you think she was being mean?? I think Arya was more referring to how horrible that scenario was and how hellish it would be for her (Arya) not Sansa.

5. Yes Arya included Sansas name when she said "I hate them all. Joffrey, the Hound, the Queen and the King..and Sansa" but as we know from her statement after she didnt mean it re Sansa. She had genuine reasons to be angry at Sansa at that time though.

6. "Reluctantly acknowledging shes part of her family" lol that is just pure bullshit and you are stretching and twisting the meaning of Arya adding Sansa last ridiculously. Also, how is that mean??

7. Aryas problem with Sansa had absolutely ZERO to do with the master bedroom and if you think it did, sorry but you are just wrong. Her problem with Sansa was to do with jer loyalty to Jon and again, there was no meanness.

All 7 examples you just cited dont prove anything.

1. Angry or not, sewing shit into a bed isn't nice....it is mean

2. Flinging food on your sister while she is at the party of the year is mean.  Ask any 14 year old girl how she'd feel if she got food thrown on her during the biggest party of the year.

3.  We all understand that Arya was very upset and emotional.  Her blaming Sansa was just immature.  It does help develop the story on the show of Arya's dislike of Sansa and even gives some justification.....no matter immature that justification is (ask Ned Stark)

4.  The seven hell's thing was just more in a Arya them......she wants nothing to with being a Lady.....but it also plays into this Sansa thing.......frick what Sansa wants because that stuff is stupid.....Arya doesn't value what Sansa values...it is insulting/rude.....mean???..... to ridicule someone else's goals as stupid

5. She said she hated her sister to her father.  You are downplaying it because.....reasons.  She said it and after her father explained the tough position Sansa had been placed she backed off the statement.  Now, I don't think she hated Sansa.  I do believe she doesn't like Sansa at all really from these scenes we've gotten so far.

6. She put in Sansa as an afterthought.  Watch the scene.  That is obvious.  It was in there because.....well.....I should add Sansa......even though I don't like her really......but yeah....Sansa too....

7.  Arya used the master bedroom to take a unwarranted shot at Sansa.  And that was what it was too......a provocative shot at Sansa.......it makes you feel better than everyone else.......just an asshat thing to say....truly......esp when the rest of us know Sansa argued with Jon about the master bedroom

These seven things are what you asked for........you asked for examples and here they are.

There are even more.

I think the first thing Arya said to Sansa was a smartass......."Do I have to call you Lady Stark?"....it was playful banter.....or was it......but then it was followed by an obviously real hug from Sansa that was half heartedly reciprocated.....weird at the time but not really after reading my own posts and seeing what followed the next episodes.

But, much like that first reunion scene.....awkward start with a full on real hug end.......I think we see the same thing with these Starks overall.....awkward start with happy end.

 

[Pandean]

@Gaz0680

 

Mhmk. Whatever you say, mate.

[Gaz0680]

22 minutes ago, Lord Okra said:

1. Angry or not, sewing shit into a bed isn't nice....it is mean

Thats hard to judge as we don't know what Sansa's actions were that made Arya angry with her.

2. Flinging food on your sister while she is at the party of the year is mean.  Ask any 14 year old girl how she'd feel if she got food thrown on her during the biggest party of the year.

I disagree that it is mean. It was playful.

3.  We all understand that Arya was very upset and emotional.  Her blaming Sansa was just immature.  It does help develop the story on the show of Arya's dislike of Sansa and even gives some justification.....no matter immature that justification is (ask Ned Stark)

Her blaming Sansa wasnt immature. Sansa was at fault for part of it. Ned just got Arya to look at the bigger picture and see thry were in a dangerous place and had to stick together. 

But in the narrow view Arya took initally, she was absolutely correct. Sansa was in the wrong. Sansa also had a narrow view, which resulted in her betraying her family (and blatantly lying to the king and court WAS a betrayal, regardless of Sansa's naievity). 

4.  The seven hell's thing was just more in a Arya them......she wants nothing to with being a Lady.....but it also plays into this Sansa thing.......frick what Sansa wants because that stuff is stupid.....Arya doesn't value what Sansa values...it is insulting/rude.....mean???..... to ridicule someone else's goals as stupid

Now you are twisting things to make the intent of that comment seem worse than it was. Arya wasnt mocking Sansa's values, it was a comment on how hellish the scenario Sansa described seemed to Arya.

Also you are conveniently ignoring the fact Sansa herself in that same conversation devalued what was important to Arya immediately after Arya had expressed how she wanted to stay because of her dancing lessons and was finally getting good. Sansa interrupted with "who cares about your stupid dancing lessons?".

5. She said she hated her sister to her father.  You are downplaying it because.....reasons.  She said it and after her father explained the tough position Sansa had been placed she backed off the statement.  Now, I don't think she hated Sansa.  I do believe she doesn't like Sansa at all really from these scenes we've gotten so far.

Im downplaying it because 11 year old children saying they hate their siblings (or parents for that matter) is a common occurrence in basically every single household and should be taken with a grain of salt. It doesnt actually mean anything. 

6. She put in Sansa as an afterthought.  Watch the scene.  That is obvious.  It was in there because.....well.....I should add Sansa......even though I don't like her really......but yeah....Sansa too....

7.  Arya used the master bedroom to take a unwarranted shot at Sansa.  And that was what it was too......a provocative shot at Sansa.......it makes you feel better than everyone else.......just an asshat thing to say....truly......esp when the rest of us know Sansa argued with Jon about the master bedroom

It wasnt an "unwarranted shot" in Aryas mind. She couldnt have known about Sansa offering the bedroom to Jon. The points Arya made in that scene were ALL valid and teue of the Sansa she knew. And Aryas comment about "it made you feel better than everyone else" was also true and wasnt an asshat thing to say at all. Thats how Sansa was.

 

I think the first thing Arya said to Sansa was a smartass......."Do I have to call you Lady Stark?"....it was playful banter.....or was it......

It was playful banter, as was Sansa's response and smile. To interpret it as anything else is just silly.

 

[Pandean]

Quote

I disagree that it is mean. It was playful.

Y'know when me and my twin were pre-teens I shoved pie in her face after we saw Wicked to be playful.

 

It did not come across as such to anyone.

[Lord Okra]

1.  We don't know Arya's reasons in show.  All we know is she did mean stuff to Sansa when she was angry.  That's what we know from the show.  Doing mean stuff to somebody is doing mean stuff to somebody.  I'm not the one trying speculate or justify.  I'm the one accepting what was shown for what it was.

2.  Playful my butt.  I can guarantee you Sansa would describe it as mean and hateful.  Watch the scene for a 14 year old girls reaction on screen.  Being mean to people you don't like can be funny......to them.....look at Sansa....she thinks she bell of the ball.....how bout I ruin your best dress big sis in front of your dream guy......ha ha ha......

3.  How in the world is Sansa at fault for Joffrey acting like a jerkoff?  She isn't responsible for any of it.  You saying she is just exposes your anti Sansa bias.

4.  You call me twisting?  Read your own stuff man.  I'm taking it as presented in show.  I don't have to really assume anything or make up reasons to justify Sansa's actions like you do for Arya constantly (see #1, #2).  Sansa is sitting there talking about her dream and Arya is sitting right there belittling it.  Sansa's dream was stupid and naive and selfish.....let's get that out there but you asked for examples of being mean and ridiculing a person's ultimate dream is mean and insulting.

5.  I know why you downplay it.  Arya doesn't actually hate Sansa but she really really dislikes her.

6.  You concede I guess.

7.  The shot at Sansa was totally out of line.  Sansa does like nice things, so what?  She didn't ask for the master suite.  She got it as Lady of Winterfell over her own objections.  There was nothing right about anything Arya was saying in that room.  I understand that "in Arya's mind" she was in the right but IN REALITY she was way out of line.  Of course, Arya always had this negative view of Sansa so it makes sense "in her mind."  We, the viewers, know that Sansa has changed a ton in the last few years.  From Sansa's own mouth we get this fact through conversations with others (I suppose you'll be demanding this list next).

And it was playful banter but that kind of playful banter says something....subtle.....the way GoT likes to do it.

[Gaz0680]

1 hour ago, Lord Okra said:

3.  How in the world is Sansa at fault for Joffrey acting like a jerkoff?  She isn't responsible for any of it.  You saying she is just exposes your anti Sansa bias.

4.  You call me twisting?  Read your own stuff man.  I'm taking it as presented in show.  I don't have to really assume anything or make up reasons to justify Sansa's actions like you do for Arya constantly (see #1, #2).  Sansa is sitting there talking about her dream and Arya is sitting right there belittling it.  Sansa's dream was stupid and naive and selfish.....let's get that out there but you asked for examples of being mean and ridiculing a person's ultimate dream is mean and insulting.

3. I am not anti-Sansa at all. I like her. Sansa was not responsible for Joffrey being a jerk. However, she WAS responsible for her own lie in front of the King about the incident. She should have told Robert the truth. That's why Arya was furious with her and went to attack Sansa, not for Joffreys actions, but Sansas own failure to backup her sister and even lie about what she saw at her soster's expense.

4. You are not taking it as presented in show at all. You are using your bias to invent a scenario where Arya did something wrong. She did not.

Do I need to replay the events of that scene?

A. Ned told the girls he was sending them back to Winterfell.

B. Arya said she cant go because she had her dancing lessons and was finally getting good.

C. Sansa said "Who cares about your stupid dancing lessons?" Then something to the effect of "I cant go. Im going to be Queen someday and marry Joffrey and have his babies".

D. Arya said "Seven hells"

How can you possibly interpret Arya as being mean in that scene and Sansa not?? 

Sansa was BLATANTLY dismissive of Aryas wants and dreams in that scene and called something Arya was invested in and cared a lot about as "stupid".  

Arya said only two words "Seven Hells" which was open to interpretation and very  well could have just been Arya commenting on how hellish a scenario what Sansa described meant to her personally.

[Pandean]

22 minutes ago, Gaz0680 said:

3. I am not anti-Sansa at all. I like her. Sansa was not responsible for Joffrey being a jerk. However, she WAS responsible for her own lie in front of the King about the incident. She should have told Robert the truth. That's why Arya was furious with her and went to attack Sansa, not for Joffreys actions, but Sansas own failure to backup her sister and even lie about what she saw at her soster's expense.

Even Ned defended Sansa's choice when it came to that though. Saying Sansa couldn't go against what her future husband and king said. It is considered treason to say a king/prince/etc. is lying. And we've seen how Cersei was treated by Robert if she said something that displeased him (even if it was true). And, she didn't lie and say what happened was Joffrey's version. She said she didn't see which neither incriminates her sister or Joffrey which is to be honest, the safest route there is.

There is no way she could've won no matter what she said. Each choice put her in danger or sacrificed her honor.

 

[Green Knight]

On 8/14/2017 at 10:03 AM, teej6 said:

Well then we are seeing very different shows. Sandra is the name us book readers call showSansa.

Since when? I'm a book reader and I've never heard of anyone calling her that? AmmI missing something? 

[teej6]

8 minutes ago, Green Knight said:

Since when? I'm a book reader and I've never heard of anyone calling her that? AmmI missing something? 

Obviously you haven't visited/posted on the rant and rave threads. It's what ppl who dislike what D&D did to BookSansa call ShowSansa.

[Green Knight]

18 minutes ago, teej6 said:

Obviously you haven't visited/posted on the rant and rave threads. It's what ppl who dislike what D&D did to BookSansa call ShowSansa.

No I haven't but the point is moot. The character's name is Sansa whether in the book or the show...

[teej6]

21 minutes ago, Green Knight said:

No I haven't but the point is moot. The character's name is Sansa whether in the book or the show...

Goodness gracious are we really debating this. Thanks Sherlock for pointing the obvious out. You don't have to agree with posters who like to have a little fun at D&D's expense.

[Gaz0680]

57 minutes ago, Pandean said:

Even Ned defended Sansa's choice when it came to that though. Saying Sansa couldn't go against what her future husband and king said. It is considered treason to say a king/prince/etc. is lying. 

It is also a great offence to lie to a King, which Robert told Sansa directly, yet she still lied to King Robert, arguably a greater offence than disagreeing with Joffreys version of events and saying it happened like Arya said (which it did). Sansa didnt need to accuse Joffrey of lying at all. She just had to tell Robert what happened (yes, when she had done so, the implication would be Joffrey had lied, but she had done so in thr process of telling her current King the truth). 

[Green Knight]

1 minute ago, teej6 said:

Goodness gracious are we really debating this. Thanks Sherlock for pointing the obvious out. You don't have to agree with posters who like to have a little fun at D&D's expense.

I don't know what your deal is or why the attitude but knock yourself out. I'm not "debating anything with you. I could'nt give a flying rats ass what you call her. Call her Mo for all I care. Nor do I care what people do or don't do with D&D. 

I was simply trying to understand why you kept calling her Sandra when it is obviously not her name. Apparently you seem to be the testy type so Ill just refrain from asking you anything in the future...

[teej6]

7 minutes ago, Green Knight said:

I don't know what your deal is or why the attitude but knock yourself out. I'm not "debating anything with you. I could'nt give a flying rats ass what you call her. Call her Mo for all I care. Nor do I care what people do or don't do with D&D. 

I was simply trying to understand why you kept calling her Sandra when it is obviously not her name. Apparently you seem to be the testy type so Ill just refrain from asking you anything in the future...

Thanks!

[Pandean]

8 minutes ago, Gaz0680 said:

It is also a great offence to lie to a King, which Robert told Sansa directly, yet she still lied to King Robert, arguably a greater offence than disagreeing with Joffreys version of events and saying it happened like Arya said (which it did). Sansa didnt need to accuse Joffrey of lying at all. She just had to tell Robert what happened (yes, when she had done so, the implication would be Joffrey had lied, but she had done so in thr process of telling her current King the truth). 

I just think you're making it out to be too easy of a situation when it wasn't. 

[Illiterati]

Nope, it's Sandra.

[Mladen]

1 hour ago, Green Knight said:

No I haven't but the point is moot. The character's name is Sansa whether in the book or the show...

The thing is that last year, during the first meeting with Lyanna Mormont, she called her Sandra. That is when it started, Lyanna said "You are Snow, and Lady Sandra is a Bolton... Or Lannister?"