Can't Stand Erikson

[SergioCQH]

There's just too much stuff. Too many gods and deities and alien races and powerful magicians and empires and armies and warrens and supernatural stuff. Laundry lists of stuff. It never seems to end.

[Matrim Fox Cauthon]

Wow, you just high-lighted many of the aspects that I hate in D&D.

[SergioCQH]

I seriously thought I was reading a D&D manual.

[Captain Canada]

Supposedly, it was originally designed as a RPG setting, so that actually makes sense. I like it, sure it's convoluted, but interesting none the less.

[werewolfv2]

how far have you made it in the series before having your head pop?

Eriksons world is almost overwhelming (well, has overwhelmed some it seems) in its age, size and depth.

[Faceless Man of Braavos]

I have read up to House of Chains... but after that I just felt burned out, and haven't felt like taking up the series since.

I think its just a matter a sensory overload... Erikson just hits you over the head too many times. Just my opinion.

[Centrist Simon Steele]

I was going to read your post and reply but my eyes kept drifting to your avatar. I think I saw boobies!

[Werthead]

I enjoy the series immensely, the second-best series after Martin's, but sometimes it does get a bit too much. It's one of those magic-heavy worlds that never convinces you it could really exist: some Ascendant or Elder God or Elder Race would have blown the planet to smithereens by now if sorcery that powerful really could exist.

That said, the worldbuilding is great, the central characters are well-drawn (the supporting ones tend to be cliched though) and some of the concepts are superbly realised. I actually like the leapfrogging aspect of the plot, bouncing between the three points of the plot triangle (Genabackis, Seven Cities and Lether), but can see how it would put some people off. Some of Erikson's originality is a bit suspect though: the T'lan Imass, though fascinating, are nevertheless the concept of the baelnorn from D&D ('good' undead who hang around for thousands of years after death to kill their racial foes) extended to an entire species, whilst the plot of Gardens of the Moon can be reduced to a simple Godzilla, let's-kill-the-monster story after 600 pages of (well-written) faffing around at the start. And no-one in fantasy fiction today writes battles and sieges as well as Erikson.

The Bonehunters is certainly for me the most eagerly-awaited book of 2006, unless Martin can surprise us all by slipping ADWD out in October as promised.

[SergioCQH]

Meh, I think good world-building has to entail credibility, not simply tons of stuff. Stuff is great, but the stuff has to come together well and not seem contrived. I mean, gods arranged in the fashion of a deck of playing cards? How much cheesier can you get?

[Ser_Denys]

I was bored out of my mind by the first book. Didn't bother to go further.

[Space Bandito]

I read the first three. But it started to lose me. I agree just to much. Everyone told me just keep reading it will make sense. I did apreciate that he can write well at times, but I don't think he can manage a plot at all. Also some of the characters started to blend to together to where I would catorgorize them. Oh here goes another angry soldier. Or another Uber Alien godling. Some of the characters were well done. House of Chains was good.

I think people should read Glen Cook's - Black Company for a generally more focused version of how it should be done. Those books are now classic in my opinion.

[werewolfv2]

I think people should read Glen Cook's - Black Company for a generally more focused version of how it should be done. Those books are now classic in my opinion.

As Glen Cook stated - "I stand slack-jawed in awe of The Malazan Book of the Fallen. This masterwork of imagination may be the high water mark of epic fantasy---accomplished with none of the customary riffs on Tolkien. This marathon of ambition has a depth and breadth and sense of vast reaches of inimical time unlike anything else available today. The Black Company, Zelazny's Amber, Vance's Dying Earth, and other mighty drumbeats are but foreshadowings of this dark dragon's hoard."

SergioCQH Stuff is great, but the stuff has to come together well and not seem contrived.....gods arranged in the fashion of a deck of playing cards....

the "stuff" does come together fairly well, its just the fact that the world is so massive that causes some people not to get it. the gods/etc are not "arranged" as a deck of cards, think to tarot cards for some idea of how it works

[Nathanael]

That doesn't make Glen Cook right, even if he is talking about himself. I must admit I liked the first two Black Company books better than Erikson. I agree with several of the complaints, and I also must admit that I was rather nonplussed by the supposedly awe-inspiring Chain of Dogs sequence.

I just requested Memories of Ice at the library, and I'll read it since I don't have much else to do, but I won't be owning Erikson any time soon.

[Kalbear]

So, I'm almost done with Deadhouse Gates, and while the ending for the Chain of Dogs is both incredible and horrifying, I'm left with wondering what the hell it is all about, ya know?

Like, okay, this all has happened and it's interesting, but I never got the impression that he actually has a beginning and an ending. It feels like, well, kind of tales of history of this place. And that's an interesting take, but it's not that great from a storytelling perspective.

Mostly, I really wish that I could distinguish any of the secondary characters from each other, and I wish people other than Felisin had a personality. She's awesome, don't get me wrong, but the rest...ugh.

[Doran Doran]

Read the first two, decided that life is too short for nonsense. Good world-building is more than ever more overpowered Elder Gods of Elder Magic Warrens, supported by an cast of billions of interchangeable spellchuckers. Nothing matters in the least in Eriksons universe, since anything can be done or undone by pulling another magic rabbit outta the hat.

I'd rather read Enron accounting. At least that has both a point and some clever misdirection.

[Calibandar]

Someone recently posted this at the Malazan forum, when someone asked for questions to ask SE (we're still waiting for the answers). I just find tis typical of Erikson's worldbuilding:

* How old is Fiddler? This might be a Gardens of the Moon inconsistency, but he ages rather dramatically from when in Malaz City with Whiskeyjack - where Paran is a boy, to later books where he's persistently described as being ... older. I believe the jump between first-scene GotM and Deadhouse Gates should only be nine years (ten, by House of Chains). Paran notes that Fiddler seems only a few years older than himself, at Mock's Hold.

* How old are the Old Guard? Can we get firm ages, and a solution to the inconsistencies between Admiral Nok's narrative in House of Chains, and the ages given for Dujek, Duiker, et al., later on? Again, seems to be a matter of Gardens of the Moon issues. As well, Dujek's age is given by a third party (Tattersail), so maybe that's just his _official_ age. And it would be nice to know how old Whiskeyjack and some of the Bridgeburners are/were, just for the sake of completion.

* Actually, I guess just a firm timeline for the Malazan Empire would be nice, aside from a chronology for the world as a whole. I don't really see the point of keeping certain dates from us - i.e., the date of the battle between the Tiste Edur and the K'Chaine Che'malle, when we get so many other time-related details (an exact date for the 33rd Jaghut War, for example).

But I'd be happy with, say a resolution to how old the Empire is, from the Emperor's first conquest of Malaz City on, perhaps.

* Where are all the mages? In Gardens of the Moon, it seems as though each army should have a cadre of High Mages, but by House of Chains, they're a scarcity. Dujek's Host was cut down to Tayschrenn after Tattersail's death, but Tattersail & Calot's earlier conversations implied the presence of more High - and presumably low - Mages. A minor point, but the Malazan Empire seems rather shorthanded in the powerful sorceror department, and I'm curious as to why.

* So, does the Malazan Empire really have a hundred legions? What's their military manpower situation like, and why was the Fourteenth primarily recruits? Whatever happened to those reinforcements sent to Genabackis, especially the legion of Wickan lancers? The Empire seems strangely weak, especially compared to the Roman Empire it's patterned after (the recent events - Aren, Pale, Coral - paralleling, roughly, the single day losses of Rome at Cannae).

* Was Tellan created by the Ritual, as surmised by IIRC Paran, in Memories of Ice? Or did it exist prior?

* Is Kallor really as old as the Imass, or was that an exaggeration in Memories of Ice ("I've walked this world when the T'lan Imass were but children"); which it would seem to be, if humans were created by the Imass.

* Did Karsa's journey really begin in 1159, or is that date incorrect? The Ashok Regiment soldiers talk about the Enfilade at Pale, which is four years later, only a few months after Karsa sets out on his raid. It would seem appropriate for him to have spent a few years in the desert between the end of his initial story and his introduction in Deadhouse Gates, rather than the less than a year that seems to be the case. As well, the issue of his age in Deadhouse Gates should probably be fixed in subsequent reprints (he's eighty+, not seventeen).

* Did K'rull really _create_ the warrens, or did he just make the basic magic available to mortals? It seems as though the Jaghut and the K'Chain Che'malle pre-date the Elder Gods, and they had their warrens to draw upon already. As well, the Letheri sorcerors utilized Holds, rather than Warrens. Perhaps a little illumination is in order there, assuming it's not a plot point to be unveiled later.

* Is the Crippled God from our world? I don't really expect an answer to the Chained God's background from Erikson, but, hell, may as well try.

* Was the infection of the warrens physically limited to Genabackis? It got stronger the closer the allied armies drew, so it would seem that it probably wouldn't be an effect at all in, say, Letheras, Quon Tali, or the Seven Cities.

* Which warren was shattered by the Soletaken Ritual of the First Empire? And how was it repaired? This seems a separate event from the shattering of Kurald Emurlahn, although tied in. So I suspect Kurald Galain was shattered at some point, weaking the Warren of Shadow, leaving it vulnerable. Where Icarium figures in, I'm not sure, and I suspect Erikson won't tell us right now.

* Are some Holds warrens, and some warrens Holds? That is, is the Hold of Ice essentially different from Omtose Phellack? Which warren does the Empty Hold of Letheris represent?

* Can we get a map of the world for someone to scan and stick online? I fail to see how hiding the layout of the known continents furthers the story for the benefit of the reader.

* How long ago was the Bridgeburner's ride through Raraku? Of the surviving Bridgeburners, how many were of the original 80 or so? Picker, Fiddler, Quick Ben, and Kalam are the only we know of for sure. I don't expect Erikson to come up with eighty names ... but that'd be nice, too.

* Can we get an even general outline of the currency of Letheris, i.e, how man docks to a level or levels to a dock, etc.? Not really important, but ...

* Any difference between the various forms of Toblakai we've seen in different parts of the world?

Reason I'm posting this is:

Credibility and internal consistency. That is something Erikson's world lacks to such a degree that discussing him in-depth, like you do with Tolkien, Martin or Bakker, simply does not make much sense, or isn't stimulatinmg. This is why discussions on the Malazan board center largely on "who is the best fighter". We are five huge books in and basic concepts still haven't received proper, understandable, and above all, consistent explanations. Some people like this, that sense of blurr, that sense of vagueness, changing rules, chaotic universe. But for someone who is serious about worldbuilding, who needs it to be credible and wants to be able to speculate, discuss and conclude, I don't think Erikson is the best man available. It's too loose, too vague, too inconsistent. What's up with continents? How many are there? Would it be possible to do justone book without timeline errors, a la Martin? Could we learn about the age or even the look of some characters? Also, many of the questions above.

[Werthead]

There are six continents, although Erikson's grasp of the term 'subcontinent' seems to be rather loose (as far as I can gather, Quon Tali and Seven Cities are supposed to be one continent seperated by a sea, a la Australia, New Zealand and Indonesia). The others are Genabackis, Jacuruku, Korelri, Assail and Lether.

The internal consistency of the series is seriously ballsed up. However, there is one defence: Erikson wrote Deadhouse Gates eight years after Gardens of the Moon. That's a hell of a long gap and I'm not surprised a lot of things changed in the interim. Apparently some of these issues have been fixed in the US edition of Gardens of the Moon and a proper revised edition has been rumoured.

Kalbear: the 'story' of MBF, as much as there is one unifying one, seems to rely on three main points of view: the stuff going on in Seven Cities (the Whirlwind), the stuff on Genabackis (Bridgeburners, Pannion Domin & Anomander Rake), and the stuff on Lether (Tiste Edur, reborn Emperor etc). The imminent sixth book in the series, The Bonehunters, apparently pulls these plot threads together. I have a serious feeling that once the series is complete, a lot of fans will start recommending that people start with Midnight Tides (the fifth book) as it is chronologically the first and a lot of stuff in the earlier books, particularly the occasional references to the Tiste Edur and the flooding of the Nascent, only make sense once you have read MT.

Erikson is frustrating for some, I think, because he has assembled a huge jigsaw puzzle and is taking his time in putting the pieces together. By the end of MT we have most of the pieces and it's just a matter now of seeing how it all comes together.

[Lyanna Stark]

kal:

Mostly, I really wish that I could distinguish any of the secondary characters from each other, and I wish people other than Felisin had a personality. She's awesome, don't get me wrong, but the rest...ugh.

I loved Felisin too! However, there are still characters in the Malazan books that are interesting enough to read about. Felisin's sister Tavore is one example, or Karsa (who disliked intensely from the start). Characterisation in the syle of Martin is not Erikson's forte at all, but he's a master of creating great nemesis - catharsis moments a la Greek tragedy. The endings of GotM, HoC and MT are all extremely big, explosive and powerful, just like the ending of DhG, even if I still think the Chain of Dogs is the most powerful. Perhaps because it's relatively simple after all.

[Kalbear]

Hmm. If there are other characters that are interesting and distinguishable, that might be cool. But one a book is a bit tough on me.

DHG did have a damn powerful ending. I might end up picking up midnight tides next, and read them all totally out of order. I really do like the world, and it's a surprising world, but at the same time it's very much impossible to get an idea of what's going to go on at all, not even a smidgen, and part of that is because the rules are so absolutely wack. The imagery is awesome, the warrens are neat, the magic use is neat, the politics _seem_ neat, but they're all opaque.

[Dutchman]

They didn't publish this thing in the states for years because they decided you folks just weren't sophisticated enough. This was something I never quite understood since if 10% of the Yankee audience was as intelligent as the average Canadian it would equal the market, yet that was their choice.

I'm not sure why, but I take immense pleasure in every "this is too much for me thread" I've seen in every board I come across.

Come on people, perservere, Tolkein isn't exactly a walk in the park easy read, Dune is thick as home made pea soup, suck it up and recognize the quality, quit your bloody bitching, you are allowing the rest of the english world to laugh. Enough of the short attention span, something must grab the attention of my ADD ass every 10 minutes or I give up nonsense.

Dutch