Wheel of Time

[HokieStone]

Was this GRRM's nod to Robert Jordan.

In a Feast for Crows, one of the characters mentions how Archmaester Rigney had written that history was a wheel and that human nature was cyclical.

I believe that's one of two nods to Robert Jordan in ASOIAF. In one of the books (either ASOS or AFFC) there's mention of a Lord (or maybe Lady) "Jordayne" who lives on the river "Tor" (Jordan's publisher). And their sigil is a quill pen. I think - too lazy to look it up.

And now I'll watch as this thread devolves into "Jordan sucks and he was a sellout!" "No he wasn't, you suck!"

[Shryke]

And now I'll watch as this thread devolves into "Jordan sucks and he was a sellout!" "No he wasn't, you suck!"

We're already there baby. It didn't even take a whole page.

[EHK for Darwin]

The Wheel of Time is a much better series than Song because Jordan didn't write himself into a corner halfway through the series. Or was I not suppose to mention that little problem? Martin may work his way out of it {or more likely, around it} but it won't really feel the same.

I say this out of love and compassion for my fellow man; Drugs are bad. What corner did Martin write himself into again? And I fricken wish Jordan would have found a corner to write into. Because it beats the hell out of exponentially expanding his cast and world beyond his ability to sustain any narrative at all, let alone an interesting one. Comparing aSoIaF to WoT is like comparing the Godfather to Christian Slater's Mobster's. Sure you can do it, but why would you want to?

To be fair, Jordan had a bit of a problem around book 8-11

Bit of a problem? You are one of the most tolerant and yet misguided people I've ever come across.

I enjoyed the battles

Would that be when Rand and friends completely obliterated a billion trollocs that suddenly came out of someones ass (god forbid anyone set scouts) before finishing their toast and orange juice?

the madness

The guy has a voice in his head that is most likely real. And he whines to himself alot. Yeah...real headcase there.

the farcial comedy

Would that be the part about world weary 20 somethings who have seen dozens of battles and a thousand deaths still acting like immature 5 year olds who think girls have cooties? Or is skirt smoothing and braid tugging just that hilarious?

and personal sacrifice

Name a major character that has really sacrificed anything in the series yet. And no she doesn't count cause its been hinted for 20 books now that she's coming back. Nope, everyone who was there in book 1 is still there now. No lost lovers either. Just alot of internal whining.

Is there any series written over a good length of time that doesn't fit this statement?

This is one of the lamest excuses for the series turning to shit that I've ever heard. That's your argument? Other long epics are bad too? Maybe if he hadn't forgotten that plot and progression are usually two words that like to go together, this series wouldn't have had to be dragged out near the 'length of time' it was.

Even in world building and developed and logical magic systems? Can you justify that?

What world building does Jordan have? Neighbors a few miles away with no major geographical or other barriers to contact having radically different cultures, custom, dress and languages with no explanation beyond the fact that RJ wanted it that way? Changing the lettering of a few real world mythical/historical names, peoples, empires and throwing them into the appendix? Villains who are talked up alot but amount to bickering pipsqueaks? Magicians who are talked up alot but amount to bickering bitches? I'm failing to grasp the depth and subtlety you seem to think exists here but not with Martin.

a well developed world is one which has strong internal consistency

Heh...I hadn't even gotten to this post yet, but some of what I posted above already covers it. I'll also add a dot on the map previously unmentioned that just happened to be the lone magic sucking place on the continent (you'd figure a place with that distinct peculiarity might have merited earlier mention) that pretty much exists so that there'd be actual tension and drama to whatever Rand does. (since he'd long since reached the point of uber-invincibility with magic)

while also developing concepts and ideas worthy of exploration.

Holy Vague BULLSHIT BATMAN! Seriously, what concepts? What ideas?

with the obvious bias against men presented well.

This would be the forementioned pages upon pages of random catty bitches calling men woolheads and trusting them with nothing even though they're proven time and again to be much more competent.

Also, the White Tower is very well developed as a corrupted organization at the cusp of complete breakdown, an orginization of wasted opportunitites that has gotten too used to its power, and misuses it.

Define 'well presented'. Would this be the overabundance of girl on girl spanking. People in different colored robes behaving like teenage cliques in a John Hughes movie? The presents of people so evil that they call themselves darkfriends, joining the Randland equivilent of Satan for no explicable purpose other than the fact that they're 'bad and evil'. (subtle...yeah)

The Seanchan are also an interestingly presented antagonistic civilization.

Define interestingly. Seriously, outside of a fetish for slavery and some emperor worship, there's not much to them. And that culture that developed thousands of miles away on a completely separate continent...yeah...their women act the same as all the rest.

Rather than take the extremely easy and dull route of presenting them as a totally evil culture, Jordan creates a society that has upward mobility and equal justice for all, while yet being a society with slaves that captures all channelers.

Yeah. Mr. Jordan was just so damned subtle and creative. He saves total irredeemable evil for people who call themselves super-dark-evil-friend-force-five and side with Satan. Sneering, white hat wearing would be theocrats are also evil. And their not orcs...they're trollocs. What a fucking masterstroke of imagination.

I asked how this was so with respect to a magic system.

And that's an absurdly dumb question. Unless you can explain to me why a magic system (or any magic at all) is an integral aspect of good fantasy.

The statement was made because I see many similarities in the way both Dumas and Jordan write, as well as their characters.

I must have missed the skirt smoothing and braid tugging in my last reread of Monte.

They do not lack in development or motivation, and come across as real people

Naive farmboys who didn't know how to talk to women are now naive boys who still don't know how to talk to women. They're not on the farm anymore...that's development for ya. Even the adults who've been around a couple hundred years act like children. Harry potter has more mature interactions between characters.

Certainly, the complexity isn't visible on the surface, but the plot is quite dense and complex.

No the plot just has alot of needless characters and other random shit thrown at it. It may at first glance appear complex, but that's simply because Jordan hasn't been resolving it since about book 6. And instead has Perrin shitting in the woods for 3 books. Or Egwene on the precipice of invasion for 4 books. Or the other harem chick taking a bath for 3 chapters. And everyone either engaging in a holding motion because the characters weren't quite in the place Jordan wanted them yet or the continuing journies and struggles of a million 100% irrelevant (usually) female characters who exist to take up pages and suck the will to live from the reader.

Any character can be devalued this way.

Not well written ones. Too bad Jordan doesn't have any of these. Or if he did, he's long since neutered and/or ruined them.

"You know its quite different from ours but you accept it because it is so damn easy to sink into."

Yes, our villains do shit because of rage, greed, lust, power. Theirs do shit because the devil is cool and they want to side with a guy who openly states he wants to end the world. We also have ugly women amongst our beautiful ones...and they don't all expose as much cleavage as possible, but at least they're not all bickering, man-hating bitches. Subtle nuances and all.

The Forsaken in the early books are alot like the Aes Sedai in the early books. Their looked upon in this very idealized way. Because, to the characters we are following, these people are LEGENDS. Their large then life. We know them by reputation not fact.

And what happens to both of them when we actually meet them? Their far less then the legends would have us believe.

This is lame, half-assed fanboy rationalizing. He dropped the ball and turned his villains into pussies and his superheroes into whiney, incompetent bitches. It was stated as fact that the Forsaken took down civilizations and the Aes Sedai have been king-makers and powers behind the thrown for centuries. But it quickly becomes apparent that the Forsaken couldn't inspire fear in the heart of a 5 year old bed-wetter (yeah, I've used that one before) and the Aes Sedai aren't competent enough to run a 7-11. Its not putting a real face on the myth and legend, its crap writing and characterization contradicting prior statements of fact.

Been a while since I've had a good Jordan rant. I like it.

[Guarneri]

Since I was too lazy to rant away when this thread started, I'll just agree to pretty much everything EHK said.

[Shryke]

This is lame, half-assed fanboy rationalizing. He dropped the ball and turned his villains into pussies and his superheroes into whiney, incompetent bitches. It was stated as fact that the Forsaken took down civilizations and the Aes Sedai have been king-makers and powers behind the thrown for centuries. But it quickly becomes apparent that the Forsaken couldn't inspire fear in the heart of a 5 year old bed-wetter (yeah, I've used that one before) and the Aes Sedai aren't competent enough to run a 7-11. Its not putting a real face on the myth and legend, its crap writing and characterization contradicting prior statements of fact.

Been a while since I've had a good Jordan rant. I like it.

Oh please. That's why I brought up Asmodean. There's also Aginor, who's a half-assed fighter at best, but perhaps on the best genetisists the world has ever seen. There's plenty of examples of Forsaken right from the start who are portrayed as far less then one would think. Many of the others are quite competent.

SPOILER: WOT up to about Crown of Swords

Rahvin, Semirhage, Graendal, Mesaana and Sammael are/were all doing perfectly fine ruling their little corners of the world and sowing chaos and death and disorder. As was Be'lal before getting his ass balefired. Demandred is apparently doing good work too, where ever the hell he is.

The Aes Sedai have proved themselves very competent at manipulation. It's just when we get a view inside at how the White Tower functions, we can see the manipulation extends to each other. Not to mention we're seeing the end of an ongoing process of the unity of the place falling apart.

Basically, quit the baseless whining. I know it's the "hip" thing to do these days, but it's just pathetic. Take the parachute pants off and get down off your high horse.

[Gigei]

Just read this, and all your WoT problems are solved. 100% guaranteed or your money back!

http://linuxmafia.com/pub/jordan/Humor/abridged.html

[EHK for Darwin]

Baseless whining is what every Jordan character does...continually. The Aes Sedai couldn't manipulate a remote control and the Forsaken would get outwitted by retarded chimps. And it has nothing to do with hip or trendy. There is simply ALOT to hate in the series and I'm only skimming the surface. Honestly, I could get into a great deal more of it, redundant, obnoxious, and overabundant female characters aside, but for the maturity of the characters. Or more specifically, the lack thereof. Every character from transplanted farmboy to 400 year old Aes Sedai interacts and communicates at the basic maturity level of a small child. There is almost no character that behaves, talks, or thinks like any adult I've ever encountered. I can't go 5 pages without the distinct realization that (mostly) off-screen war and strife aside, I'm really reading a children's book.

Now that was fine when I was 13 and the isolation of the naive farmboys would give them comparable levels of maturity. But there seriously has been little or no growth. Everyone still broods. Whines. Everyone is still utterly mystified by the opposite sex and thinks their buddy has a better grasp on things. The naive innocence has quickly left charming and long since delved into irritating.

And who gives a shit about all the forsaken you mention. Only a few of them actually qualify as characters. The rest are lame boogeymen with names who occasionally show up at an 'evil person's ball' and bitch at eachother. Almost none of them have done anything relevant and those who have tried are typically smacked down by book's end. For a while there it really became some monster/forsaken of the week bullshit each book.

[Mazrick]

I think the only Forsaken worth two shits were Lanfear and Ishamel. The rest were, IMO, complete crap.

BTW I think if this series had a better editor and had been chopped in half it probably would have been my favorite fantasy series. As it stands it is a rather sore disappointment, though still containing eminently readable sections.

[add-on]

The Aes Sedai couldn't manipulate a remote control

classic. Pretty fair critique, too. Though I wouldn't be half so harsh, all those complaints are pretty legitimate, IMO.

[Gigei]

I think the only Forsaken worth two shits were Lanfear and Ishamel. The rest were, IMO, complete crap.

BTW I think if this series had a better editor and had been chopped in half it probably would have been my favorite fantasy series. As it stands it is a rather sore disappointment, though still containing eminently readable sections.

If RJ had only ended it on the fifth or even sixth book then it would be a favorite of mine, too. It just dragged on too long and now he is dead...that's what happens when you put off things indefinitely.

[fionwe1987]

There was a lengthy communal bath scene in Book 4 and several others throughout the rest of the series. Aviendha's use of a bath in Book 5 results in Rand getting his spear, for example. The Wheel of Time is the only major epic fantasy series in which regular water immersion can be the catalyst for life-changing plot developments. However, it does get a lot worse later on, to the point where you are not sure if RJ is indulging in self-parody. I note that Book 11's superiority to the previous three volumes is directly proportional to its much reduced bathing quotient.

The only bath scenes in book four involved Egwene and Aviendha reaffirming their friendship and the one where the Wise Ones, Egwene and Moiraine discuss Rand, etc. I assumed (correctly as it turned out) that these scenes were not what the OP was referring to.

[fionwe1987]

Basically, yes. I did not really want to drop a serie in the middle, so I investigated, to see if it got better regarding the points irritating me. In the course of this inquiry, I happened to read several chapters, among them was one devoted to Elaine bathing. It made an impression.

So you basically read a scene out of context, saw that it was set in a bathroom, ignored the events that do happen, ignored the concequences of the conversations that occur, and decided the scene was complete crap? Way to go.

You were the one to drag asoiaf in it. I made a similar comparison. Why would a magic system be more relevant than science, anyway? Didn't Rand invent gunpowder?

As for character development, I could not help it. Braid tugging, and everything it represents is not hyperbole.

I did not bring up asoiaf. Quit saying I did.

As for your Asimov point, I agree. In developing science WoT is inferior to all Asimov books. What precisely was the point you were trying to make with it?

Though I'm wondering at your fitness to comment. Clearly, you've barely skimmed through WoT, or you would have realized that gunpowder was around right from the second chapter or so, when fireworks are mentioned, as are Illuminators. And their weaponization was by an expert firework maker who has been working on the field for quite some time. Rand, incidentally, doesn't even know of these weapons.

[AverageGuy]

I believe that's one of two nods to Robert Jordan in ASOIAF. In one of the books (either ASOS or AFFC) there's mention of a Lord (or maybe Lady) "Jordayne" who lives on the river "Tor" (Jordan's publisher). And their sigil is a quill pen. I think - too lazy to look it up.

Jordayne of the Tor. His coat of arms is a golden quill on green cheques.

[EHK for Darwin]

I did not bring up asoiaf. Quit saying I did.

Someone said that WoT was inferior to Martin's series and you asked if that statement applied to world building and magic systems as well. (and to justify it) You're pretty much incorporating a direct aSoIaF comparison into your post implicitly and probably even explicitly.

"dont start WoT expecting something similar to asoiaf. WoT is clearly and significantly inferior in almost every criteria u can use to judge fantasy series."

"Even in world building and developed and logical magic systems? Can you justify that?"

You weren't the first to bring up asoiaf, but you did very much bring it up. And asked for a rather asinine comparison (magic systems? As if that's relevant in the least) as a defense of WoT.

In developing science WoT is inferior to all Asimov books. What precisely was the point you were trying to make with it?

I can't speak for him, but I suspect its to ask what precisely was your point in comparing magic systems between asoiaf and WoT. (considering that magic plays an infinitely more limited role in asoiaf and all) And perhaps to point out how absurd such a comparison is on its face. Asoiaf has very little to do with magic so pointing out the lack of a codified magic system as some sort of comparative flaw is like sneering at Duluth for having a worse football team than the Dallas Cowboys when Duluth does not in fact have a football team.

And their weaponization was by an expert firework maker who has been working on the field for quite some time. Rand, incidentally, doesn't even know of these weapons.

And their existence and hinted weaponization began in about book two and has been hanging around with almost no progress until the most recent book. That is what we call plot progression in Randland. And due to the peculiar tendency of every major character to never communicate relevant information at a time when it might actually be useful, we can further manufacture artificial tension and move things along at the desired snails pace because if people started behaving rationally, this flimsy artifice called a plot would collapse around our heroes.

So you basically read a scene out of context, saw that it was set in a bathroom, ignored the events that do happen, ignored the concequences of the conversations that occur, and decided the scene was complete crap? Way to go.

What exactly was there out of context. There's about a hundred pages that take place in a bathtub where Elayne obsesses about an uninteresting and barely relevant sideplot that's been dangling for a couple of books with no progress and by the end of the book, there's still nothing done on the matter. It displays all the hallmarks of ineptness that the previously poster pointed out. Jordan's sprawling, uncontrollable narrative. Inclusion of almost pointless minutie and sideplots barely relevant to the main plotline. His inability to force any resolution whatsoever. And his fetish of girls taking baths together. (not quite up there with his cleavage, spanking, and skirt smoothing fetishes, but its around the vicinity)

You're acting like this is some heavily nuanced, subtle masterpiece that demands close inspection and analysis. Its really, REALLY not.

[Shryke]

And their existence and hinted weaponization began in about book two and has been hanging around with almost no progress until the most recent book. That is what we call plot progression in Randland. And due to the peculiar tendency of every major character to never communicate relevant information at a time when it might actually be useful, we can further manufacture artificial tension and move things along at the desired snails pace because if people started behaving rationally, this flimsy artifice called a plot would collapse around our heroes.

Oh please. Fireworks and their potential for detruction are established as an interest of Mat's early in order to make their later use make sense. Then, when it makes sense, their brought back to the fore and resolved within 2 books. What's the problem? Are The Others a slow moving plot, progressionless and stupid plot in ASOIAF because they're brought up in book 1, but aren't even resolved by book 4?

Really, wtf are you even doing in this thread if your only gonna bring up "arguments" (if I have to denigrate the word by applying it to the shit your writing) who's backing is essentially "Because I says so!".

[fionwe1987]

To start off, it seems quite clear that you've hardly read the books. If you'd have presented a reasoned argument, instead of a rant, you'd have been able to actually point out the flaws in the series. Instread, as your last statement shows, you've just presented one of your stereotypical rants.

What world building does Jordan have? Neighbors a few miles away with no major geographical or other barriers to contact having radically different cultures, custom, dress and languages with no explanation beyond the fact that RJ wanted it that way?

What do you mean by this? Give me one example of this occuring?

Incidentally, I live in India, where language and culture differes from state to state, even when there are no barriers between them. You'll find culture, dress and custom changing immediately after you cross the boders. And this situation has existed even before there was an India, when many of these places were separate kingdoms.

Changing the lettering of a few real world mythical/historical names, peoples, empires and throwing them into the appendix?

Well since this never happens, it seems clear you've invented your own WoT appendix and stuffed it with names from ancient myth, all with the aim of making pointless accusations.

Villains who are talked up alot but amount to bickering pipsqueaks? Magicians who are talked up alot but amount to bickering bitches?

Yes, yes, the fact that a group of women who rule the world and ancient villains who legend says destroyed the world are actually not what they seem from afar is going to be so obvious to a bunch of villagers who've lived isolated from the world.

Incidentally, on the Forsaken, you do realize that there were millions in the Age of Legends under their command, and that they had access to some highly advanced technology, right? You also realise that tales of Semirhage eating babies and Aginor beating u bad boys are actually stories and truth? Or did you fall for mamma Cauthon's strategy and believe she was actually stating historicall proven facts about the Forsaken to baby Mat?

I'm failing to grasp the depth and subtlety you seem to think exists here but not with Martin.

Again, why are you dragging Martin into this? Can't WoT be discussed for itself instead of turning it into yet another pissing contest between two series?

Heh...I hadn't even gotten to this post yet, but some of what I posted above already covers it. I'll also add a dot on the map previously unmentioned that just happened to be the lone magic sucking place on the continent (you'd figure a place with that distinct peculiarity might have merited earlier mention) that pretty much exists so that there'd be actual tension and drama to whatever Rand does. (since he'd long since reached the point of uber-invincibility with magic)

Again, you make a highly amusing spectacle of yourself. Right back in book one, we were introduced to Stedding, places where the One Power cannot be used. We're told there are many Stedding, and visit one, even.

Far Madding differs only in that the One Power stopping effect is not natural, but achieved by using a ter'angreal.

And there were hints before that prepare the way for Far Madding. Mat's ter'angreal that stops the Power, the fact that Far Madding was once the capital of Essenia, a region which is very well known for both its anti One Power policy as well as its habit of collecting One Power related items.

Holy Vague BULLSHIT BATMAN! Seriously, what concepts? What ideas?

Cool it, man! Asking me for examples in a polite tone won't kill you.

As for concepts explored in WoT:

Misinformation and the idea of insufficient communication affecting world event. The idea of limits to what you can do to combat evil. Blind faith and its repercussions. That merely maintaining a status quo not only leads to stagnation but also recession. The tendency to stereotype foreign cultures and the resulting misunderstandings. Non violence as a way of life and the difficulties it faces in a violent society, and the possibly inherent hypocricy in such a concept applied in a violent society. The possibility of a rigid society with slaves that still has upward mobility and equal justice.

I could go on...

This would be the forementioned pages upon pages of random catty bitches calling men woolheads and trusting them with nothing even though they're proven time and again to be much more competent.

Well, your obviously erronous wording aside, you do realize that there is a very good reason for why these women behave as if they are superios to men don't you? How many enlightened 17th century men were around who accepted that women could be their equals or treated them well??

Define 'well presented'. Would this be the overabundance of girl on girl spanking. People in different colored robes behaving like teenage cliques in a John Hughes movie? The presents of people so evil that they call themselves darkfriends, joining the Randland equivilent of Satan for no explicable purpose other than the fact that they're 'bad and evil'. (subtle...yeah)

I think you just proved you haven't read the books. The reason some Aes Sedai choose to serve the Dark One is because he promises immortality and unquestioned power.

Define interestingly. Seriously, outside of a fetish for slavery and some emperor worship, there's not much to them. And that culture that developed thousands of miles away on a completely separate continent...yeah...their women act the same as all the rest.

These women have the same reasons for their superior behavior. More actually, since they are not only not men, they're "special" among women in that they aren't "tainted" by the ability to channel.

And why are you ignoring the fact that slavery is given as a form of punishment, one that can be given to Lords and Ladies as well. On the flip side, slaves can occupy postions where they can dictate to the highest of Lords. More, they can be freed and accepred into society for services performed. Nor can slaves be mistreated without repercussions. The Nobles also cannot freely harm normal people, and are accountable for their actions.

Yeah. Mr. Jordan was just so damned subtle and creative. He saves total irredeemable evil for people who call themselves super-dark-evil-friend-force-five and side with Satan. Sneering, white hat wearing would be theocrats are also evil. And their not orcs...they're trollocs. What a fucking masterstroke of imagination.

What makes you state the Whitecloaks are irredemably evil? They are antagonists, but they are not presented as irredeemably evil. Surely you don't mean to say that you label all antagonists as evil.

And that's an absurdly dumb question. Unless you can explain to me why a magic system (or any magic at all) is an integral aspect of good fantasy.

Name a fantasy without elements of magic in it, then.

I must have missed the skirt smoothing and braid tugging in my last reread of Monte.

Yes, because that is so what the characters are all about!

Naive farmboys who didn't know how to talk to women are now naive boys who still don't know how to talk to women. They're not on the farm anymore...that's development for ya. Even the adults who've been around a couple hundred years act like children. Harry potter has more mature interactions between characters.

You accused me of talking vague bullshit, I recall. Substantiate your own vague, crappy statements.

No the plot just has alot of needless characters and other random shit thrown at it. It may at first glance appear complex, but that's simply because Jordan hasn't been resolving it since about book 6. And instead has Perrin shitting in the woods for 3 books. Or Egwene on the precipice of invasion for 4 books. Or the other harem chick taking a bath for 3 chapters. And everyone either engaging in a holding motion because the characters weren't quite in the place Jordan wanted them yet or the continuing journies and struggles of a million 100% irrelevant (usually) female characters who exist to take up pages and suck the will to live from the reader.

Again, statements you fail to back up with evidence.

Not well written ones. Too bad Jordan doesn't have any of these. Or if he did, he's long since neutered and/or ruined them.

Oh? I'll assume you agree Catelyn is a well done character? Here, I'll dismiss her characterization:

From woman who wants children alive to woman who endlessly mourns their death.

Yes, our villains do shit because of rage, greed, lust, power. Theirs do shit because the devil is cool and they want to side with a guy who openly states he wants to end the world. We also have ugly women amongst our beautiful ones...and they don't all expose as much cleavage as possible, but at least they're not all bickering, man-hating bitches. Subtle nuances and all.

On the first point. Where has the Dark One stated he wants to end the world? The Light siders say he wants to do that, but they're his enemies. Why would any Darkfriend take their word for it? And you ignore the promises the Dark One has made the Dark Friends: immortality and power. The first, at least, he has demonstrably proved he can grant.

As for the supposed beauty of all WoT women, I fail to see how people miss that the way they are described depends totally on the way the PoV characters feel about them.

Take Faile, for example. When he first sees her, Perrin thinks she has overbold features and that her nose is too big. As he falls in love with her, he slowly recharacterizes these features in his descritions. Her too large nose is converted into an asset in his mind, etc.

This is lame, half-assed fanboy rationalizing. He dropped the ball and turned his villains into pussies and his superheroes into whiney, incompetent bitches. It was stated as fact that the Forsaken took down civilizations and the Aes Sedai have been king-makers and powers behind the thrown for centuries. But it quickly becomes apparent that the Forsaken couldn't inspire fear in the heart of a 5 year old bed-wetter (yeah, I've used that one before) and the Aes Sedai aren't competent enough to run a 7-11. Its not putting a real face on the myth and legend, its crap writing and characterization contradicting prior statements of fact.

Again you prove you haven't read the books. All these Forsaken had millions of Aes Sedai and a lot of technology helping them in the Age of Legends. They are now suddenly dropped into a very primitive society where most of the technology they relied on is absent. You expect them to smoothly continue?

And I've always wanted to know, why is their lack of success in direct combat taken as a sign of overall incompetance? That's like saying Tywin was incompetant since Robb would have beaten him in single combat!

As for the Aes Sedai, its pretty clear they were indeed a mostly competant organization pre Artutr Hawkwing. His rule and Bonhwin's incompetance obviously decemated them, and since then, they've been on the decline. Not only have their sisters weakened in strength, they obviously lack the political presence they previously had. They've maintained themselves on their reputation from the first thousand years, but that reputation is obviously bloated and undeserved. They've become an organization steeped in following old useless customs, who've given up innovation and change in favour of trying to be what they think the sisters of old were. They're all external image, but the stuff inside is pretty rotten.

The few successful Aes Sedai we have seen (Verin, Moiraine, Siuan and Cadsuane) are considered unconventional AS. They dared to break the mould, and succeeded in their jobs. The same cannot be said for the other 990 odd AS, however.

The cracks in the images of the Forsaken and the AS were seen in the first book itself. We have Moiraine, who among the first book characters knows AS best, telling Egwene that the AS were not superwomen. We see that Aginor was a greedy fool who had absolutely no competance in combat, again in the end of the first book. In the beginning of the second, we see that the AS organization is cracked by petty infighting, and we get the first hints that the Amyrlin isn't the vastly powerful woman we think she is. We also get clues to the final stilling of Siuan.

Been a while since I've had a good Jordan rant. I like it.

A rant. Exactly. You sacrificed a debate for the sake of a silly rant. Says a lot about you.

[EHK for Darwin]

Are The Others a slow moving plot, progressionless and stupid plot in ASOIAF because they're brought up in book 1, but aren't even resolved by book 4?

Actually yes. At the moment, they're largely irrelevant to the existing story and have a direct impact thus far on exactly one PoV. (two if you count Sam) Thankfully the rest of the story (book four excepted) has been infinitely more interesting than frozen boogeymen to the north, complete with intricately woven plots and intrigues and well developed, compelling characters. Martin's books may eventually be about frozen zombies but its not right now. And what it presently is about is interesting and moving along at a steady pace. (like I said, Feast excepted. I could give you an equally long, quite critical slamming of that one if you'd like)

WoT is and always has been about the final battle between Satan and the dragon. The books have gone out of their way to emphasize how comparatively weak and ill-prepared humanity was for this struggle and the much hinted cannons were supposed to go a decent way towards evening this margin. They were however hinted at and than ignored for 9 books or so. Now if this were an isolated occurrence, it wouldn't be much of a problem. But its used to show a pattern of plot ineptness that Jordan has displayed for about 5-6 books now. Its been heavily hinted that M is coming back, but no real progress til the last book. Fireworks into cannons in book 2, no progress til this book. A note in book 5 or 6 supposedly mentioned the possibility of cleansing, no progress til an out of the blue finale bereft of any real buildup or foundation several books later. Conflict in the white tower, continually delayed for 3+ books and still not resolved. Faile captured for 3 books or so before resolution. The Evil Aiel sticking around for about 5 books longer than they needed to be. Nobles in Camelot (yeah, different name. Forgot it. Sue me) sitting around sucking their thumbs until the most recent book.

Jordan left a ton of shit dangling not because of any real literary vision but because he simply lost control of the story.

Really, wtf are you even doing in this thread if your only gonna bring up "arguments" (if I have to denigrate the word by applying it to the shit your writing) who's backing is essentially "Because I says so!".

Its a WoT thread. Some people were making some incredibly stupid defenses of the books. I responded. Last I checked negative criticism was just as valid as positive.

[fionwe1987]

Someone said that WoT was inferior to Martin's series and you asked if that statement applied to world building and magic systems as well. (and to justify it) You're pretty much incorporating a direct aSoIaF comparison into your post implicitly and probably even explicitly.

You clearly missed the second sentence, where the OP said WoT was clearly inferior in every criteria on which you can judge a fantasy novel. I was replying to that, and that statement has nothing to do with asoiaf and everything to do with fantasy in general.

You weren't the first to bring up asoiaf, but you did very much bring it up. And asked for a rather asinine comparison (magic systems? As if that's relevant in the least) as a defense of WoT.

Why is it asinine? Fantasies, in general, tend to have some magic in them. If a series can have a system for magic that is logical and consistent, it is a strength for that series. If the system makes no sense, and is completely random and illogical, it can be held against the series in which it is present. Hence, it is a criteroin on which fantasy can be judged. A criteria in which WoT is not inferior at all. Why can I not bring this up?

I can't speak for him, but I suspect its to ask what precisely was your point in comparing magic systems between asoiaf and WoT. (considering that magic plays an infinitely more limited role in asoiaf and all) And perhaps to point out how absurd such a comparison is on its face. Asoiaf has very little to do with magic so pointing out the lack of a codified magic system as some sort of comparative flaw is like sneering at Duluth for having a worse football team than the Dallas Cowboys when Duluth does not in fact have a football team.

First, I'll state again that the comparison was with fantasy in general, not asoiaf.

Secondly, you analogy is flawed. aSoIaF does have magic. If tomorrow, Martin were to randomly write in a spell that Danyh uses to destroy all of humanity, then it would be a crappy bit of writing, and something one could hold against him.

However, when it comes to judging a fantasy with the criteria of magic, Martin is up there because he uses magic well, and the lack of explaination is actually used to good effect. Jordan on the other hand, takes a different route and has a system in place that he follows. That too is an effective presentation of magic in a fantasy.

Thus, in the case of magic as a criterion for judgement of a fantasy, WoT is clearly not inferior to other fantasies. This, however, is by no means a statement that asoiaf is. Got it??

And their existence and hinted weaponization began in about book two and has been hanging around with almost no progress until the most recent book. That is what we call plot progression in Randland.

Really? Their potential for weaponization was hinted at in book three. In book five, we again come across Aludra, and learn she now hates the Seanchan and wants to find a way to take revenge against them. She has joined a travelling show. Mat comes in contact with this group only in book nine. There, he shares his ideas for weaponization with Aludra. With the money he provides once they escape Seanchan territory, she starts building cannons, etc. Where do you see inconsistency in this?

And due to the peculiar tendency of every major character to never communicate relevant information at a time when it might actually be useful, we can further manufacture artificial tension and move things along at the desired snails pace because if people started behaving rationally, this flimsy artifice called a plot would collapse around our heroes.

So, you are in the habit of confiding secrets that can potentially embarass you, or lead to a lot of trouble, with friends with whom your relations have soured or who are far away? Also, have you told everything you know, everything about you, to any friend?

What exactly was there out of context. There's about a hundred pages that take place in a bathtub where Elayne obsesses about an uninteresting and barely relevant sideplot that's been dangling for a couple of books with no progress and by the end of the book, there's still nothing done on the matter. It displays all the hallmarks of ineptness that the previously poster pointed out. Jordan's sprawling, uncontrollable narrative. Inclusion of almost pointless minutie and sideplots barely relevant to the main plotline. His inability to force any resolution whatsoever. And his fetish of girls taking baths together. (not quite up there with his cleavage, spanking, and skirt smoothing fetishes, but its around the vicinity)

Again, your statement that the Sea Folk bargain, the discussion of the sisters in the Silver Swan inn, the potential return of Elayne's brothers to help her, are all irrelevant is only a show of either your ignorance of the series or your tendency to obfuscate what you know just so you can present "evidence" in your rants.

And hundred pages of bath scenes? There should be a limit to hyperbole.

And why do any percieved fetishes of RJ matter. I don't see you criticizing Martin for his "he pissed in his pants" fetish, or his tendency to overdescribe food.

You're acting like this is some heavily nuanced, subtle masterpiece that demands close inspection and analysis. Its really, REALLY not.

Why? Because you refuse to get it because of your bias? I've spent three years on a board as active as Westeros discussing the plots and subplots of WoT. You surely don't believe I'll take your unsubstantiated word to the contrary, do you?

If you want to dismiss the positives WoT has because the negetives outweigh them for you, do so, but please don't try to state your opinion as fact and expect me to believe you.

It would have been interesting if you could have come up with some constructive criticism of WoT. There are enough flaws in the work to allow for that. Why you have to rant is beyond me.

[fionwe1987]

WoT is and always has been about the final battle between Satan and the dragon. The books have gone out of their way to emphasize how comparatively weak and ill-prepared humanity was for this struggle and the much hinted cannons were supposed to go a decent way towards evening this margin. They were however hinted at and than ignored for 9 books or so. Now if this were an isolated occurrence, it wouldn't be much of a problem. But its used to show a pattern of plot ineptness that Jordan has displayed for about 5-6 books now. Its been heavily hinted that M is coming back, but no real progress til the last book. Fireworks into cannons in book 2, no progress til this book. A note in book 5 or 6 supposedly mentioned the possibility of cleansing, no progress til an out of the blue finale bereft of any real buildup or foundation several books later. Conflict in the white tower, continually delayed for 3+ books and still not resolved. Faile captured for 3 books or so before resolution. The Evil Aiel sticking around for about 5 books longer than they needed to be. Nobles in Camelot (yeah, different name. Forgot it. Sue me) sitting around sucking their thumbs until the most recent book.

It is interesting that you see WoT as only about the battle with Shai'tan. It would explain your total lack of understaning where to plot is going. Rand quite simply, cannot fight Shai'tan without a united Westlands behind his back. And the obstacles to that are formidable, and not all placed by servants of Shai'tan.

Again, in the large scheme of things, cannons will be an advantage for the Light, but very little to date in the books has been about direct confilct with the Trolloc hordes where these cannons would actually be relevant for the final battle. Why should they have been developed well in advance of their intended use? And how would it have made sense, given that their developer was a part of a travelling show which met Mat only in the ninth book?

Again, Moiraine's return might have been obvious to us as readers, but none of the characters save Thom had any clue of this, and he had specific reasons for waiting. Asking for early resolition of this is like saying "We all know Dany is going to return to Westeros eventually, but the plot has meandered off this and Dany is now sitting in Mereen entering into pointless side issues".

Again, with the cleansing, Rand got a hint from the Finns, then Herid Fel gave him some hints. Then he had to find Nynaeve. It was only after all these things were in place that he could do the deed. Nynave was in the middle of nowhere till book 9. How was Rand to find her?

Again, you want a quick resolution of the White Tower conflict. You talk as if there is only one side to it. But that isn't true. There's the Black Ajah. There's the Ajah Heads who've possibly sent Sitters to the Rebels with an as yet unkown aim. Egwene starts out pretty powerless and cannot command anything. To top it all off, she has to find a solution to the problem that doesn't end with Aes Sedai fighting each other in Tar Valon because that would severely reduce their numbers as well as their armies'. Meanwhile, the situation in the Tower is no less complicated, with a Forsaken destroying unity completely. You think the end to the Tower struggle would be a swift attack, but that is blatantly not true. The "delay" is no delay at all.

Jordan left a ton of shit dangling not because of any real literary vision but because he simply lost control of the story.

I'd listen to that if you backed up what you said. So far, you've only given statements which only prove you've scarcely read the books.

Its a WoT thread. Some people were making some incredibly stupid defenses of the books. I responded. Last I checked negative criticism was just as valid as positive.

Criticism? You've yourself called it ranting. Crticism would involve presenting a case properly with some evidence when asked for. How're you to do that if you scarcely know the books?

[Errant Bard]

I can't speak for him, but I suspect its to ask what precisely was your point in comparing magic systems between asoiaf and WoT.

And you are right. You rant much better than me too. I think the OP can now see clearly that not all of us consider WoT a masterpiece.