The Tragedy of Barristen Selmy

[hobomagic]

[quote name='the silent speaker' post='1258125' date='Mar 5 2008, 23.31']Sure, if you take Jorah at his word. The thing about that is, well, Jorah's a lying traitorous bastard. In the scene whre she confronts Barristan and Jorah for the last time, I was struck by the difference between Barristan's contrition and Jorah's... not. Barristan wanted to make amends. Jorah wanted Dany to see that he was really in the right all along. She walked into that room intending to pardon them both, and Jorah damned himself by his own words.

Yes, his loyalties were more than apparent. They lie with Jorah Mormont.[/quote]

It is important to note, though, that Jorah WAS always right. He was right about the wine merchant, he was right about both the highborn of Qarth and Xaro, he was right about the unsullied, right about White Beard, and he was probably right about not trusting Illyrio. Jorah might be interested first and foremost in Jorah, but that did not stop him from being Dany's most useful advisor.

[A wilding]

[quote name='Bverrit Keep' post='1257769' date='Mar 5 2008, 23.53']Jorah had stopped doing that ages ago. Why is it even relevant? Weren't his loyalties more than apparent? Yet Barristan's weren't -- he was an agent of Illyrio's. He needed something to prove his loyalty. Jorah was the sacrifice, and Dany took the bait.[/quote]
But does Barristan know that Jorah has stopped reporting on Dany? He was, after all, still doing it in ACoK, after she had hatched the dragons. Indeed, has he stopped reporting on her at all? We only have his word for it that he has. What about the possibility that he might be blackmailed by threats to reveal to Dany that he was spying on her?

[quote name='hobomagic' post='1258408' date='Mar 6 2008, 08.22']It is important to note, though, that Jorah WAS always right. He was right about the wine merchant, he was right about both the highborn of Qarth and Xaro, he was right about the unsullied, right about White Beard, and he was probably right about not trusting Illyrio. Jorah might be interested first and foremost in Jorah, but that did not stop him from being Dany's most useful advisor.[/quote]
Still, Dany was completely right about Jorah. He wanted to wrap her in cotton wool and be her sole conduit of information about the outside world, while at the same time deciding unilaterally to keep from her any information he did not want her to know (e.g.: that he had been reporting on her; that the Titan's bastard had escaped). He showed not the slightest sign of mending his ways in this regard. There is absolutely no way that any effective leader can possibly allow this sort of thing to happen.

[Mezeh]

I don’t think that possible appearance of Jon Connington would make Selmy presence unnecessary. After all they are very different persons. Selmy needs a king to guards – he never wanted anything else in his life. We don’t know what would be Connington’s but most probably he would want no less that restoration of all that was taken from him and probably more. And this is a lot – he was a rich and powerful lord and king’s Hand to boot.
We could bet that Connington would know more of Rhaegar’s secrets but he was only his friend and Selmy server to three Targaryen kings during a quarter of century. And Selmy unquestionably loyal to a king he currently guarding and where Connington loyalty would be we could only guess.
There would be more differences for sure. For once Connington spent last 16 years hiding somewhere in the east so he definitely would different from lord Aerys exiled 16 years ago.
Actually having two of them near Dany would be very interesting so I bet both of them would survive for a while after they will met.

[Guest Other-in-law]

[quote name='hobomagic' post='1258408' date='Mar 6 2008, 03.22']Jorah might be interested first and foremost in Jorah, but that did not stop him from being Dany's most useful advisor.[/quote]
If it's "useful" to constantly get advice to [i]give up[/i] at every single obstacle and run away and marry Jorah, then sure. Would she have made any progress [i]at all[/i] if she consistently followed his counsel?

[Maia]

[quote name='hobomagic' post='1258408' date='Mar 6 2008, 03.22']It is important to note, though, that Jorah WAS always right. He was right about the wine merchant, he was right about both the highborn of Qarth and Xaro, he was right about the unsullied, right about White Beard, and he was probably right about not trusting Illyrio.[/quote]

This is not true. All Dany's successes are due to her not following Jorah's advice. Sure, she took it into account when she made her plans, but since about half-way through AGOT she never pursued a course of action suggested by him in it's entirety, even though she usually adapted certain parts of it. Anyway, the problem with Jorah was that he continued lying to Dany and trying restrict her access to information, not to mention attempting to direct her actions according to his self-interest. He was a great advisor, sure. But he wasn't content with that.

[Ned Sand]

[quote name='Bverrit Keep' post='1257769' date='Mar 5 2008, 18.53']. . . Yet Barristan's weren't -- he was an agent of Illyrio's. He needed something to prove his loyalty.[/quote]Aren't Illyrio and Varys Dany's, though she doesn't know it? Or am I forgetting the names?

[Wrex]

:lol: Barristan is such a little bitch in the series. Hes SO jelous of Jaime being younger and a better fighter than he is. Always moaning about him, it makes him seem so immature.

[alguien]

[quote name='Bverrit Keep' post='1257769' date='Mar 5 2008, 18.53']Jorah had stopped doing that ages ago. Why is it even relevant? Weren't his loyalties more than apparent? Yet Barristan's weren't -- he was an agent of Illyrio's. He needed something to prove his loyalty. Jorah was the sacrifice, and Dany took the bait.[/quote]

That's a misrepresentation. Barristan was just responding to Jorah's accusation of being a traitor. Not only that, Barristan had a good point, Mormont fought AGAINST Rhaegar on the Trident, so he's just as guilty.

Besides, lets get real here. Jorah, (who I like as a character) was not looking out for Daenys' best interests, he was romantically obsessed with her, and that skewed his judgement. That's the reason she dismissed him, because she saw that keeping him would enable him.

I like Jorah though. I really want him to end up on the Wall.

[the silent speaker]

[quote]Aren't Illyrio and Varys Dany's, though she doesn't know it? Or am I forgetting the names?[/quote]
The names are right. I don't know that I would sign off on the allegiances. (I think Varys is working with the Golden Company for the black and not the red dragons.)

[hobomagic]

[quote]This is not true. All Dany's successes are due to her not following Jorah's advice. Sure, she took it into account when she made her plans, but since about half-way through AGOT she never pursued a course of action suggested by him in it's entirety, even though she usually adapted certain parts of it. Anyway, the problem with Jorah was that he continued lying to Dany and trying restrict her access to information, not to mention attempting to direct her actions according to his self-interest. He was a great advisor, sure. But he wasn't content with that.[/quote]

You're right that Dany doesn't follow Jorah to the letter, but he is the only advisor she listens to at all. The others are all completely worthless or completely untrustworthy, and as yet dany hasn't figured out how to bend the untrustworthy to her will. Jorah was capable, realistic, and completely bound up with dany's fate. He would have been excellent, for example, as the commander of the new city watch that she desperately needs.

[Guest Other-in-law]

[quote name='hobomagic' post='1293990' date='Mar 30 2008, 18.36']You're right that Dany doesn't follow Jorah to the letter, but he is the only advisor she listens to at all. The others are all completely worthless or completely untrustworthy[/quote]
This is just plain silly.

[Blackstone]

Selmy's continuing purpose to the plot is limited. His only real function now is to fill in the blanks about the Targaryen's to Dany and most importantly clue Dany into the truth about Robert's Rebellion.

If Dany is to rule Westeros, she has to understand that her father and brother shattered the social contract. Stark, Baratheon, Arryn and to a lesser extent Tully were well within their rights to rebel against Aerys and Rhaegar. Fealty is a two-way street. Loyalty and obediance are exchanged for Justice and Protection.

Even a Prince-Royal cannot kidnap the daughter of the Westeros equivalent of a ruling Duke, murder her father when he comes to investigate, murder the son when he comes to call out the Prince (betrothed to another Duke's daughter), demand the heads of the remaining sons and the kidnapped daughter's lawfully betrothed (who are wards of yet another Duke).

Dany needs to loose the rose-colored glasses and understand that she needs to make amends for her families crimes as well as conquer and rule well.

[A wilding]

I agree, but lets not overstate the case.

We don't know that Rhaegar "kidnapped" Lyanna. It seems more likely that he merely ran off with her without first obtaining his father's consent. We don't know Rickard's initial reaction to this, but it seems likely it was more measured then Brandon's and that, along with Hoster Tully, he regretted Brandon's rash response. It does seem unlikely that Barristan thinks Rhaegar acted very wrongly given his opinion of him, likely his view of the business is close to that Dany already has.

It was not Rhaegar who executed Rickard and Brandon and demanded Ned and Robert's heads. Rhaegar, when he heard of this, decided that his father had gone too far and needed to be dealt with once the rebellion had been put down. Probably Barristan can tell Dany that as well.

But Barristan can tell Dany that Aerys had gone too far and that the rebels thus had justification for reacting as they did to his actions, which might soften her opinions. As for amends though, I imagine that she is still going to think that the deaths of Aerys, Rhaegar, Rhaenys and Aegon wipes the slate clean for Aerys' crimes.

[Enguerrand]

Yes, the fact that Barristan, so far after the war, is so gushing in his praise for Rhaegar, can hardly mean anything but that he finds Roberts version of the kidnap rape of Lyanna as false.

Given Barristan's inside knowledge and integrity, it also strongly suggests that it is actually wrong.

[Ned Sand]

[quote name='Blackstone' post='1299953' date='Apr 3 2008, 18.38']Dany needs to loose the rose-colored glasses and understand that she needs to make amends for her families crimes as well as conquer and rule well.[/quote]It will be enough if Dany realizes that the rebels had good cause to complain. That will allow her to work with most of them and their descendants, which she will likely need to do. Indeed, the most particularly aggrieved family is probably the Starks: daughter deflowered, Lord roasted, heir hanged. And, the Starks didn't kill any of Dany's family members personally.

Dany will likely take a few heads in vengeance: Robert*, Tywin*, Gregor*, Jamie. However, without Barristan to tell it true, she might take a wider and counterproductive vengeance.

[Jaak]

Besides, if Daenerys is asked about how she avenged the killing of Viserys - what will she answer?

[Ned Sand]

[quote name='Jaak' post='1300630' date='Apr 4 2008, 09.28']Besides, if Daenerys is asked about how she avenged the killing of Viserys - what will she answer?[/quote]Oh, lots of things. That Drogo wasn't one of Viserys subjects, so it was an honest quarrel between folk. That Viserys violated comity. That while Drogo lived, Dany was in his power and unable to act. That Drogo is dead, so it's moot. That her vengeance is her business and who are you to question your Queen?

Sure, there's an inconsistency there, but Dany has a lot of outs.

[alguien]

[quote name='Ned Sand' post='1300619' date='Apr 4 2008, 08.11']It will be enough if Dany realizes that the rebels had good cause to complain. That will allow her to work with most of them and their descendants, which she will likely need to do. Indeed, the most particularly aggrieved family is probably the Starks: daughter deflowered, Lord roasted, heir hanged. And, the Starks didn't kill any of Dany's family members personally.[/quote]

Not only that, but Ned actively argued against sending assassins after her. Which Barristan can personally attest to.

[Blackstone]

If she ever wants to truly rule a united Westeros, she has to understand that even if Lyanna ran away voluntarily with Rhaegar, that the rebels had cause. There was simply no way for Robert, etc. to know that Lyanna ran away, and it doesn't seem to even make sense to Viserys and Dany. Ned suspected the truth, but I think he would have still thought Lyanna's duty to marry Robert.

Tywin is the true villian of the rebellion, but of course he and his henchman are all dead now.

Jaime is the only one left who was directly involved in those events. Now that we know Jaime's side of the story, IMHO even Jaime was in the right. His oath and his king against all the innocent people in King's Landing. In that sense, Jaime is a better knight that Selmy regardless of what he became later.

I wonder whether Dany will learn Jaime's story before the end?

[Prince of the North]

[quote name='Blackstone' post='1301142' date='Apr 4 2008, 14.28']I wonder whether Dany will learn Jaime's story before the end?[/quote]
Interesting question! I really hope she does learn of it because it would be great to see what Martin would have her reaction be.