Dany's Heir

[Angalin]

(Phew. Thanks for moving this, Ran! :))

Jaak, I wanted to wait until this had jumped fora before I replied to your point about Tommen and Myrcella. I don't think they have a future, so I don't think it's worth dwelling on what Dany would do about them. Somewhere in Jaime's chapters, he thinks about killing Cersei, but follows that up with "but I can't do that to Tommen". Well, if Tommen is dead, there's no reason for him to hold back.

Shewoman - thanks for the reminder. I don't think Gregorstein will take much longer to make his appearance, however: Qyburn seems to be too proud of his invention to hold him back indefinitely.

BW, Edric Storm is ready and waiting, wherever he is which I have forgotten, to step up as Lord of Storm's End. I don't see Gendry taking over.

[AHackeySackOfIceAndFire]

[quote name='Black Wizard' post='1294621' date='Mar 31 2008, 10.37']Danearys could also legitimise one of Robert's bastards and use him as the Lord of Storm's End. She's not likely to kill children who didn't even know their father.[/quote]

i think that's a very interesting idea, but i also think any of Robert's direct descendants would be... rather undesireable to Dany, who views Robert in the same way he viewed Rhaegar.
as long as we're legitimizing bastards, is a Blackfyre revival by way of the Golden Company an option for an heir?

[Angalin]

Nobody knows - yet - whether or not the Golden Company has an actual Blackfyre on staff. ;)

[edited for shift key]

[Jaak]

[quote name='Black Wizard' post='1294621' date='Mar 31 2008, 17.37']Danearys could also legitimise one of Robert's bastards and use him as the Lord of Storm's End. She's not likely to kill children who didn't even know their father.[/quote]
Legitimizing a bastard of Robert for Lord of Storm´s End would leave the Martells without that reward - Arianne cannot very well marry a Lord of Storm´s End, because she is needed in Sunspear as the ruling lady of Dorne. Well, Daenerys could legitimize Mya Stone and marry her to Trystane, but given her near-commoner upbringing, Mya would be a massive embarrassment as the Lady of Storm´s End. Which means that if Myrcella is safe in Martell hands, Daenerys should not disinherit her.

[Black Wizard]

What would the Martell's want more: Storm's End or Highgarden? The Reach and Dorne have hated each other for, well, forever. If Mace Tyrell doesn't fight for Daenerys then Highgarden could very well be used as a massive insult to Mace. However, he may yet still fight with Daenerys since he fought with her father during the rebellion although he's probably the most fickle Lord in Westeros.


Also, someone please reference me to the passage where Daemon Blackfyre and the Golden Company are spoken of.

[BlueLion70]

[quote name='Jaak' post='1294304' date='Mar 31 2008, 01.28']No, Daenerys´ closest known heir is Tommen, then Myrcella.[/quote]

I don't think so, since the Baratheons do technically have some Targaryen blood in them, from some female side of the family a few generations back, and since Tommen and Myrcella don't actually have any Baratheon blood, Stannis should technically be above them in the line of Targaryen succession.

[Black Wizard]

It's not yet been proven that Tommen and Myrcella are bastards, so legally they are Baratheons. The incest scandal may be public knoweledge, but to prove it Stannis will have to provide evidence.

[Ned Sand]

[quote name='Black Wizard' post='1295061' date='Mar 31 2008, 15.14']It's not yet been proven that Tommen and Myrcella are bastards, so legally they are Baratheons. The incest scandal may be public knoweledge, but to prove it Stannis will have to provide evidence.[/quote]As evidence goes, Edric, Mya, and Gendry all together may not be evidence enough. What they really need is Bran's testimony. Very few people know he knows what he knows: Bran, unCat, Jamie, Cersei. Did he tell Jojen and Meera?

You know, the factoid that intrigues me is "16 for him and 3 for you" from Maegi the Frog's prophecy. That's a lot of bastards to track down. Sure, Cersei killed some of them, but there's got to be more out there. Edric, Gendry, Mya, and Barra* are the only names we know, right?

[Jaak]

[quote name='Ned Sand' post='1295230' date='Apr 1 2008, 00.05']As evidence goes, Edric, Mya, and Gendry all together may not be evidence enough. What they really need is Bran's testimony. Very few people know he knows what he knows: Bran, unCat, Jamie, Cersei. Did he tell Jojen and Meera?[/quote]
Bran just proved that Jaime and Cersei had sex. He did not see all the occasions that Robert and Cersei had sex.

On one occasion, Cersei thought she was pregnant with Robert´s child, and killed it. Was she right?
[quote name='Ned Sand' post='1295230' date='Apr 1 2008, 00.05']You know, the factoid that intrigues me is "16 for him and 3 for you" from Maegi the Frog's prophecy. That's a lot of bastards to track down. Sure, Cersei killed some of them, but there's got to be more out there. Edric, Gendry, Mya, and Barra* are the only names we know, right?[/quote]

The twins of Casterly Rock may never have had names. Then we have 6 bastards accounted for and 10 unaccounted.

[sToNED_CAT]

[quote name='Jaak' post='1294360' date='Mar 31 2008, 05.03']If she wins, well, Quentyn is supposed to get Daenerys´ hand and heart. But this still leaves the question of disposing of Storm´s End and Casterly Rock.[/quote]

Storm's End will belong to Gendry. I mean Martin must have a reason why he let him alive and not only this, he also appears in every book. I think he'l become the lord of Storm's End and he will marry Arya. :)

[vlada]

As for those counting Tommen and Myrcella,I would not put my money on them...If I'm correct there's a little prophecy(so far true in every aspect)which says Cercei will see her children die...
Stannis obviously has strongest claim after Dany,but I really don't see him surviving oncoming chaos.
And BTW I really hate Dany,so anyone replacing her has my vote.
Unless it's Sansa,of cource :rolleyes:

[cybroleach]

[quote name='Ned Sand' post='1295230' date='Mar 31 2008, 17.05']As evidence goes, Edric, Mya, and Gendry all together may not be evidence enough. What they really need is Bran's testimony. Very few people know he knows what he knows: Bran, unCat, Jamie, Cersei. Did he tell Jojen and Meera?[/quote]

Your forgetting Lancel, Kevin, and most importantly [b]Tyrion[/b]

[Ned Sand]

[quote name='Jaak' post='1295241' date='Mar 31 2008, 17.11']Bran just proved that Jaime and Cersei had sex.[/quote]Which is a great deal more than Edric & Co. can prove. All they can prove is that Robert fathered bastards that look like Robert. So what if the children of Cersei look like Cersei?

Evidence that Cersei and Jamie committed treason by cuckholding the King would be a big step forward.

[MTGAP]

I don't understand how any Baratheons have a claim to Dany's throne. Right now she doesn't really have an heir, and if she died her Khalasar would be divided. I don't know where the Unsullied would go. They are technically free, but where else would they go?

[Ned Sand]

[quote name='MTGAP' post='1295349' date='Mar 31 2008, 18.13']I don't understand how any Baratheons have a claim to Dany's throne.[/quote]Dany's great-grandfather, Aegon V, had a daughter who married a Baratheon. If Dany dies, we look to
her children (none)
her siblings (none)
her parent's siblings and their issue (none)
and so forth.

Eventually, we back so far up the family tree of Targaryen that we reach Aegon V, whose only living descendants are these Baratheons. Supposing that Robert, Stannis, and Renly have no legitimate heirs, I have no idea who's next in their branch of the Targaryen tree.

[Bronn Stone]

[quote name='MTGAP' post='1295349' date='Mar 31 2008, 15.13']I don't understand how any Baratheons have a claim to Dany's throne. Right now she doesn't really have an heir, and if she died her Khalasar would be divided. I don't know where the Unsullied would go. They are technically free, but where else would they go?[/quote]
The Baratheon claim to the Targaryen throne is documented in the series. IIRC, Lord Robert's grandfather was married to a Targaryen, and thus the Baratheons are Targaryens through a maternal line.

Should she reclaim her throne, she can of course designate any heir she chooses, but the various lords of Westeros will be more likely to accept her choice if it can also be demonstrated to have a historical basis. She'll already be working at something of a disadvantage in that she is female and foreign and the daughter of a madman.

[Daena the Defiant]

[quote name='Ned Sand' post='1295388' date='Mar 31 2008, 17.40']Eventually, we back so far up the family tree of Targaryen that we reach Aegon V, whose only living descendants are these Baratheons. Supposing that Robert, Stannis, and Renly have no legitimate heirs, I have no idea who's next in their branch of the Targaryen tree.[/quote]

Yeah but...

There are doubtless other nobles who also have that drop of Targaryen blood in them as well - I don't think that would be terribly dispositive of anything.

The drop of Dragon blood was a legal fig leaf that helped seal the deal of Robert's claim by right of conquest - Robert didn't start the Robellion to make himself king, he did it to extinguish the Targaryen regime. One side effect of doing that was there was no king after they killed him and his family.

Robert was a plausible replacement due to his incandescent charisma, battle prowess and his strangely fortuitous place at the center of a once in a millennium allied bloc of some the greatest houses in the realm - throw in a Lannister bride, and that's that.

Oh, and he happens to be a fraction Targaryen.

[mcbigski]

[quote name='Ned Sand' post='1295230' date='Mar 31 2008, 16.05']You know, the factoid that intrigues me is "16 for him and 3 for you" from Maegi the Frog's prophecy. That's a lot of bastards to track down. Sure, Cersei killed some of them, but there's got to be more out there. Edric, Gendry, Mya, and Barra* are the only names we know, right?[/quote]

There's also Bella at the Peach.

While Robert's connection to the Targaryen bloodline was fairly distant, I'm not aware of anyone else left alive with a better claim. While it's probalby true that if Robert didn't have a Targaryen for a ancestor he still would have ended up with the crown, his claim is still better than the Martells and whoever else is still around with a drop of dragon's blood from even further back.

Which means that as of now, Tommen would be her heir. Prophecies aside, the best Tommen could hope for if Dany contests his rule is to take the Black. If Myrcella's betrothal isn't ended, then I could see Dany manuvering her into becoming Lady of the Rock, with her Martell husband actually calling the shots. Which would make Dany's heir their eventual children or Stannis and Shireen, if he plays nice with Dany when she shows up.

Effectively though, Dany has no heir. Should she win the Iron the Throne then she would name one. Until she sits the Throne, it's really premature to speculate. If she's killed before then, it's game over for the Targ claim, though whoever can control the dragons would likely end up starting a new dynasty, IMO. It's especially irrelevant because however you slice it, her nearest living relatives (Tommen and Stannis) are already contesting for the Throne themselves.

[Jaak]

[quote name='mcbigski' post='1295592' date='Apr 1 2008, 05.43']While it's probalby true that if Robert didn't have a Targaryen for a ancestor he still would have ended up with the crown,[/quote]
Robert said that Eddard or Jon should have become King. Eddard replied that Robert had the best claim.

Eddard did not want the crown. But Jon Arryn would have made a better king than Robert.

[quote name='mcbigski' post='1295592' date='Apr 1 2008, 05.43']his claim is still better than the Martells and whoever else is still around with a drop of dragon's blood from even further back.[/quote]
Next should be Elaena´s issue.
[quote name='mcbigski' post='1295592' date='Apr 1 2008, 05.43']Which means that as of now, Tommen would be her heir. Prophecies aside, the best Tommen could hope for if Dany contests his rule is to take the Black.[/quote]
Dany is not comfortable with production of Unsullied. An oath to take no wives and father no children - Kingsguard had it, but do bloodriders? Many khals, though not Drogo, share their wife with bloodriders.

Extracting a vow from a 8 year old boy never to take a wife, or else be killed now, would be problematic from Daenerys.

[quote name='mcbigski' post='1295592' date='Apr 1 2008, 05.43']If Myrcella's betrothal isn't ended, then I could see Dany manuvering her into becoming Lady of the Rock, with her Martell husband actually calling the shots. Which would make Dany's heir their eventual children or Stannis and Shireen, if he plays nice with Dany when she shows up.

Effectively though, Dany has no heir. Should she win the Iron the Throne then she would name one. Until she sits the Throne, it's really premature to speculate. If she's killed before then, it's game over for the Targ claim, though whoever can control the dragons would likely end up starting a new dynasty, IMO. It's especially irrelevant because however you slice it, her nearest living relatives (Tommen and Stannis) are already contesting for the Throne themselves.[/quote]

If she declares Robert and Stannis attainted because of their rebellion (which Owen Merryweather did), then on the strength of their attainder and disinheritance of their issue (trueborn or not), the nearest relatives of Dany would be the Martells.

Instructing her followers, Unsullied and freed slaves to rally to Quentyn, should she die - would they follow up with carrying out her will??

[automne]

[quote name='anguy' post='1295271' date='Mar 31 2008, 23.38']Martin must have a reason why he let him alive and not only this, he also appears in every book.[/quote]
Gendry being Robert's son has some Targ blood.
I won't be surprised if that turns out to be important in the future.