Waldo Frey Posted March 26, 2009 Share Posted March 26, 2009 [url="http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1164402/Man-accused-rape-lawyer-victim-drunk-remember.html"]Full story[/url] What do you think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Dow Posted March 26, 2009 Share Posted March 26, 2009 [quote name='Waldo Frey' post='1733630' date='Mar 25 2009, 23.55'][url="http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1164402/Man-accused-rape-lawyer-victim-drunk-remember.html"]Full story[/url] What do you think?[/quote] I had originally thought that, even at worst (in my state), this could not have been legally sufficient for rape, even assuming that the woman's version of events was more credible than the defendant's version of events. Generally, a case like this would be charged as a sexual battery in Ohio, but not a rape. However, I think that it could be a rape as its defined in the Ohio Revised Code. I am going to spend a bit of time researching this later and will get back on this. Research aside, while this may or may not be rape, as opposed to sexual battery, it may be no crime at all, depending on which side of the 'he said she said' the trier of fact buys into. Of course, the law in England may be different anyway in cases like this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lightning Lord Posted March 26, 2009 Share Posted March 26, 2009 How do they determine if a woman (or man) is too drunk to give consent? Without knowing how much information the guy had about the evening, I can't even tell if he is a jerk or not. If he knew the woman had had 4 bottles of wine, then 2 with him, he at least took advantage of someone really wasted. But if he didn't know how intoxicated the woman was, is he supposed to preface with "Are you too drunk to give consent?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shryke Posted March 26, 2009 Share Posted March 26, 2009 How drunk was HE? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arbor Gold Posted March 26, 2009 Share Posted March 26, 2009 Sucks. According to the guy's defense attorney, the woman laid down first, helped undress the guy, preformed a sex act on him, then had sex with him. Then she does not remember it the next morning. Interesting part of the law: [i] 'Where the complainant has voluntarily consumed even substantial quantities of alcohol, but nevertheless remains capable of choosing whether or not to have intercourse, and in drink agrees to do so, this would not be rape.''[/i] Seems applicable here, but how does one prove "capability of choosing"? One person was blacked out, and the other is charged with rape. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted March 26, 2009 Share Posted March 26, 2009 Personally, I only think its rape if the person physically cannot say no. Say from being too busy vomiting all over the guy's crotch or from being completely passed out. If she isn't fully coherent, that's rape baby. The new law that went through is decidedly touchy because it opens up all measure of trouble. At what point is the man responsible? What if he is also drunk? What if it was the woman who began the advances, but couldn't remember the events afterward and assumed she had been taken advantage of? The problem with it is, and this is a bit of a double standard, all the responsibility for this 'coerced sex', is put squarely on the man. Sometimes it is justifiable, sometimes it isn't. What if the man had woken up and cried rape first, would it have made the news as anything more then a joke article? From reading that article its hard to say one way or another in this case, though the circumstances are a little dodgy in regards to the man in question. She didn't know him from the sounds of things, and hadn't expected him to be there while she was inebriated. While I might not go so far as to call it rape, (rape is a very loaded word for me) it certainly stinks of something foul. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Dow Posted March 26, 2009 Share Posted March 26, 2009 [quote name='Arbor Gold' post='1733659' date='Mar 26 2009, 00.14']Sucks. According to the guy's defense attorney, the woman laid down first, helped undress the guy, preformed a sex act on him, then had sex with him. Then she does not remember it the next morning. Interesting part of the law: [i] 'Where the complainant has voluntarily consumed even substantial quantities of alcohol, but nevertheless remains capable of choosing whether or not to have intercourse, and in drink agrees to do so, this would not be rape.''[/i] Seems applicable here, but how does one prove "capability of choosing"? One person was blacked out, and the other is charged with rape.[/quote] The defense attorney may be basing her cross-examination on the version of events as told to her...by none other than the defendant. And any defense attorney or prosecutor can confirm that the defendant is not always, ah, the most credible of sources. Then again, oftimes, neither is the alleged victim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord O' Bones Posted March 26, 2009 Share Posted March 26, 2009 I have been raped dozens of times if this is rape. Really, I don't think we'll ever know, short of a Vulcan mind meld or two. I have to think the conviction rate for this scenario is fairly low. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoN Posted March 26, 2009 Share Posted March 26, 2009 Rape convictions in the UK are already abysmally low anyway: [url="http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/mar/14/rape-convictions"]Around 6.5%[/url] [quote]The government estimates that as many as 95% of rapes are never reported to the police at all. Of the rapes that were reported from 2007 to 2008, only 6.5% resulted in a conviction, compared with 34% of criminal cases in general. The majority of convictions for rape resulted from an admission of guilt by the defendant, whereas less than one quarter of all those charged with rape were convicted following a successful trial.[/quote] In this case, I don't know what to think. I've never been so drunk I had a blackout. I am inclined to think that if she had that much to drink then no, she couldn't give consent. Edit to add- reading the OP article it seems she didn't blackout, and in fact remembers performing sex acts on the man in question. Who fucking knows what it is. Edit again- BBC is reporting it slightly [url="http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/kent/7964085.stm"]differently:[/url] [quote]Earlier, the jury heard the woman could not remember Mr Bacon being at the house or having any sexual activity with him the night the rape is said to have happened.[/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arbor Gold Posted March 26, 2009 Share Posted March 26, 2009 [quote name='Black Dow' post='1733664' date='Mar 25 2009, 21.16']And any defense attorney or prosecutor can confirm that the defendant is not always, ah, the most credible of sources. Then again, oftimes, neither is the alleged victim.[/quote] Yeah, that was the point of my last sentence....might not have expressed it very clearly though. This is exactly why I videotape every sexual encounter that occurs in my home. When the guy leaves the next day, I can review the tapes and refresh my memory as to what happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord O' Bones Posted March 26, 2009 Share Posted March 26, 2009 [quote name='Arbor Gold' post='1733676' date='Mar 25 2009, 21.38']This is exactly why I videotape every sexual encounter that occurs in my home. When the guy leaves the next day, I can review the tapes and refresh my memory as to what happened.[/quote] :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Dow Posted March 26, 2009 Share Posted March 26, 2009 One thing is for sure- at least in my state, and, based on what information I gleaned from an English appeals court (mentioned in the original link)- the mere fact that someone had a blackout, and had sex without remembering any of it, does NOT mean that there was a rape. The issue is not whether someone had a blackout but whether that person was so substantially impaired that the person was incapable of giving consent. A blackout in and of itself wouldn't prove that a person was incapable of giving consent; then again, the fact that someone didn't blackout wouldn't prove, in and of itself, that a person WAS capable of giving consent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ldygrffn Posted March 26, 2009 Share Posted March 26, 2009 where is the friend who invited the guy over? wouldn't she be in a decent position to clear up some of the details? also, whether he came home from a bar with her, or shared many bottles of wine in her home, he had obviously had much drink as well, just because he remembers and she doesn't, isn't proof that he was any more capable of rationally assessing the situation. if she was giving the come-on, and participated, while a bit dodgy, can he really be faulted for something as serious as [i]rape[/i]. this is a big, big, big word, and if every case of blackout sex is rape, i think rape stats are due for a serious jump, i know i've been there before, and i imagine that many others have as well. point being, that [i]rape[/i] is a HUGE, serious, fucked up thing, and not a word to throw around if you made a mistake and now regret it. that said, if this was totally non-consentual, then it should be treated as rape. but if he was invited over, drank as much as her, and misread her co-operation, then it is much gray, much. though again, where is the friend? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SergioCQH Posted March 26, 2009 Share Posted March 26, 2009 So, if a man and a woman are both equally drunk and they have sex that is legally non-consentual, who is the rapist? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stego Posted March 26, 2009 Share Posted March 26, 2009 Poor guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gryphon strike Posted March 26, 2009 Share Posted March 26, 2009 But he added: 'Where the complainant has voluntarily consumed even substantial quantities of alcohol, but nevertheless remains capable of choosing whether or not to have intercourse, and in drink agrees to do so, this would not be rape.' That quote makes me think the guy will get off the charge, the fact that he was charged is puzzling to me at the least. This poor guy now has a rape charge on his rap sheet, not a nice thing. Seriously before screaming rape the woman should have talked to the guy, so the laws have changed big deal both had been drinking so exactly what happened is probably never going to be made public. To have someone charged when you have NO IDEA at all about what happened is extreme to me. If it can somehow be proved that he did indeed rape her then by all means throw the book at him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mormont Posted March 26, 2009 Share Posted March 26, 2009 [quote name='Ouroboros' post='1733663' date='Mar 26 2009, 04.16']Personally, I only think its rape if the person physically cannot say no.[/quote] I'd disagree. It's rape, as the article says, if the person cannot physically say 'yes'. And that's the case here. It also appears from the article that she didn't report it to police - he did. He went to the station to ask what his legal position was. The police arrested him, presumably by way of an answer. As for the whole 'poor guy' attitude: his version of events doesn't do him much credit, frankly. "I thought she was giving me the come-on." That's a direct quote. Can someone explain the difference between that and 'she was asking for it'? The [url="http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/kent/7964085.stm"]BBC[/url] version also differs from the linked report: in the above version, the defence lawyer claims she helped him to undress her, but the BBC reports the police interview in which the accused says that [i]he[/i] undressed her and she 'did not stop him'. That's a world of difference. And this was after she had got into bed fully clothed, which doesn't support the idea that she was intending to have sex with him. I know that many of the women on this board have been in situations which are fairly similar to this, though I don't know of any that ended in an actual rape, as this did. The fact is that there are guys out there who are willing to persuade themselves that a very drunk woman really wants to have sex with him, when in fact she may be barely aware of his presence. Also, let's not cast this as a 'battle of the sexes' thing. The law puts the onus on [i]both[/i] men [i]and[/i] women to be sure that their partner has consented. Had she taken advantage of him in exactly the same manner, the same thing would have happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sariel Posted March 26, 2009 Share Posted March 26, 2009 The whole thing strikes me as somewhat odd. I've gone through hours and hours of party without remembering a thing about what happened there, yet I was functional enough (supposedly) to dance and talk and drink more. How drunk was the girl? How drunk was the guy? There just seems to be way too many questions without chance of answer for this thing to go through. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Barry Posted March 26, 2009 Share Posted March 26, 2009 [quote name='mormont' post='1733794' date='Mar 26 2009, 09.02']I don't know of any that ended in an actual rape, as this did.[/quote] That is a big statement. Way to give him a fair go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MinDonner Posted March 26, 2009 Share Posted March 26, 2009 Why all this assumption that "consenting" is the default state until someone says No? If you were browsing round a car showroom one evening, and woke up with a hangover to find a rusty old banger parked outside and £3000 missing from your bank account, you'd rightly assume that you'd been taken advantage of by the car salesman. It's not always the "no" that makes it rape, often it's the lack of "yes". You wonder why the rape conviction rates are so low? Take a good look at all the attitudes in this thread. :tantrum: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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