Infidelity - when, if ever is it acceptable.

[tenalpia]

agreed. If a sexual relationship wasn't important to me I would have married my best friend. But he doesn't really do it for me.

Which is my point exactly.

Try to work things out with your partner. If the two of you can't find a way to deal with the differences in sexual needs then you need to decide to live with it or end the relationship. Cheating on them and then blaming them for the cheating is not a solution.

[Weak With The Dawn]

There have been a lot of great points brought up here. Having a baby is certainly one of the most stressful experiences a couple can have, particularly on the woman. Stress goes a long way towards killing libido and she just may not be feeling the idea of sex right now with so much else on her mind.

On the other hand, they both know it's been over a year since they were intimate. This can definitely cause implications if he's not willing to wait, but he's got to talk to her and figure out how she feels.

I think the level of infidelity is also a pretty big thing. If I find out my SO had a romp in the sheets with some random guy she'll never meet again, I'll be upset and probably a bit mistrustful, but I can forgive it. If I find out there's been a relationship on the side for months with all the works (affection, cuddling, etc) then it's over. I don't share people I love in that way, and I don't expect anyone I'm with to accept it if I do it. I make that clear when starting relationships.

Everyone has different opinions on what "cheating" means (that should be obvious enough in this thread) but a couple should be able to define what cheating is in the parameters of their relationship. If there's any gray area, it needs to be cleared up and until it is neither party should be taking action.

[Iskaral Pust]

To the OP - while 13 months without sex might seem like a hardship, I think you need to invest a little more thought as to the hardship endured by the wife. Experiences of pregnancy, child-birth and infant-rearing vary significantly by individual and it would not be unusual for a woman to be so physically, hormonally and emotionally exhausted that she is not capable of sex yet. I would expect a little more empathy from her loving husband.

FWIW - my wife struggled for a long time with PPD and to recover from a brutal pregnancy and a very painful and draining (no pun intended) experience with nursing. Infidelity never crossed my mind once.

[turinturambar]

To the OP - while 13 months without sex might seem like a hardship, I think you need to invest a little more thought as to the hardship endured by the wife. Experiences of pregnancy, child-birth and infant-rearing vary significantly by individual and it would not be unusual for a woman to be so physically, hormonally and emotionally exhausted that she is not capable of sex yet. I would expect a little more empathy from her loving husband.

FWIW - my wife struggled for a long time with PPD and to recover from a brutal pregnancy and a very painful and draining (no pun intended) experience with nursing. Infidelity never crossed my mind once.

13 months is a long time. She should be physically capable. Emotionally and hormonally are a different thing altogether though and she can seek help for this. If the OP is telling the truth though and she refuses to seek help, there is nothing more that he can do. I had a great marriage for a long time, then she lost a baby 5 months in. She went through PPD. I was as caring and understanding as one can be, telling her how beautiful she was every day, telling her how much I loved her. She was just flat out depressed, but she refused to seek help. If somebody doesn't want help, you can't do anything about it. I remained with her anyways hoping that she'd get better, but one day she was gone. She moved halfway across the country, her parents didn't even know where the hell she was. She turned into a completely different person. She filed for a divorce and got it. Now she's cleared her head and she's been trying to get me back, but I'm with somebody else now. I never strayed while we were together and I fought to the bitter end, but if somebody refuses to seek help and they just kind of give up on everything, well that can make you pretty bitter.

A lot of people seem to think that women are the only ones that need reassurance in a relationship. A man needs to be told he's sexy or appealing to his partner. A man needs to feel appreciated as well. A man needs to feel desired. It's a two-way street. If a woman refuses intimacy for 13 months that's going to make anybody feel like they're simply not wanted. If the OP's friend has truly done all he can, the only thing left is to either live in misery hoping that she eventually overcomes her issues, or end the relationship.

[BigFatCoward]

A lot of people seem to think that women are the only ones that need reassurance in a relationship. A man needs to be told he's sexy or appealing to his partner. A man needs to feel appreciated as well. A man needs to feel desired.

it sounds like you were channeling syrio for the last few sentences.

nobody ever seems to think about this, very valid point. though i am shit at receiving compliments, whenever my girlfriend says anything nice i assume she is after something.

[Kalbear]

Yeah, that poor guy. I feel so bad for him, what with that woman who actually gave birth and had a human being pass through her birth canal not feeling so amazingly hot right now. How dare she!

Seriously, women and men both can have a very large drop in libido post-baby. Do you think that makes it acceptable? Put it another way: is it ever acceptable to fuck some other person without the partner's consent or knowledge while said partner is raising a 14-month old?

To me, that says that the guy wants out of the relationship and is looking for an excuse.

[BigFatCoward]

I'm not entirely convinced, by the way, that the OP's friend is just a wonderful self-sacrificing person who is married to a depressed and sexless woman. Men always say that they are so "hands on parents" when "hands on" generally means that they see the kid for an hour or two before bed, and do some activities on the weekends.

well you'd be totally wrong then, he works 12 hours shifts, 4 days on, 4 days off. for the 4 days when he is off he does everything, all day, to give her time for herself.

such a sweeping generalisation, it doesn't become you.

[Insert Edit]

Now let's see if I have this straight...

My ex wife has an affair after our baby was born, and dumps me two years after that, and that shouldn't trouble me. But if she talks to her friends, or anonymous strangers on a message board, either to vent, or to get advice on the relationship - that should trouble me?

Heh.

Stego, if you haven't gone through it first hand, all I can say is I hope you never do.

--

Whomever posted the part about owning it has it right. If the relationship isn't working, be up front and end it - or work towards making it better. Don't blame the other partner, and make them responsible for your choices.

And of course, that only works in ideal-land. :)

[Insert Edit]

well you'd be totally wrong then, he works 12 hours shifts, 4 days on, 4 days off. for the 4 days when he is off he does everything, all day, to give her time for herself.

such a sweeping generalisation, it doesn't become you.

Point being however, that he made his choices. I did my part with my child too, as well as being the bread-winner. Still didn't change the fact that our failing relationship was BOTH our faults. IMO, true victims in a relationship are rare. We all make choices. We all have to own them. Your friend, as good a guy as he may be, still made choices.

[turinturambar]

IMO, this isn't a zero sum game with only two outcomes. There are also other alternatives, such as:

1. Marriage counseling (perhaps she isn't interested in getting help for her own depression, but might do so within the context of marriage counseling)

2. A frank discussion about alternatives within their relationship, such as some flavor of an open relationship

I'm considering that as part of "doing everything he can". I did both in my situation, set up marriage counseling and she refused to go. Frank discussions I also tried, but they work very little with somebody who's dead to the world.

I'm not entirely convinced, by the way, that the OP's friend is just a wonderful self-sacrificing person who is married to a depressed and sexless woman. Men always say that they are so "hands on parents" when "hands on" generally means that they see the kid for an hour or two before bed, and do some activities on the weekends. Of course, I have my own prejudices in this, but my sympathies lie with the woman, here. It can take years to recover physically and especially emotionally from childbirth.

And incredibly sexist thing to say.

I was probably raised a bit too well in some submissive wifely role, because I well remember doing my duty with my now-ex when my son was 12 weeks old. It hurt. I used my Lamaze breathing techniques to get through it. It didn't feel right for a long time.

12 weeks is not 13 months. Typically the Dr tells you to wait at least 6-12 weeks. You should have seen a Dr about it and refused him. Which can be done in a way without making the partner feel undesired or unwanted. There are other things both partners can do as well without penetration. Sex should never be a duty, it should be something that's enjoyed and explored by both partners to the fullest.

[turinturambar]

[sarcasm] That's very nice of him, being the 100% parent for 4 days out of 7. I'm shocked that he isn't the one with the low libido, since he's doing everything.[/sarcasm]

Really, can you see that his statement of position might be a little self-serving? If he's doing all of this stuff, why isn't he the one too exhausted to be romantic??? On the other hand, if by saying "for the 4 days when he is off he does everything" includes loafing around the house and watching TV while sort of playing with the baby, that seems more realistic for most men who say they do "everything" with the baby while yet maintaining a roaring interest in sex.

I dropped out of college(full-time)and moved in with my sister to help her raise her newborn daughter. My sister was in a rough time with a deadbeat father. I changed the diapers, fed her at night, tucked her in a night, played with her, disciplined her, and took up basic assumption of all fatherly duties and I cherished every moment of it. I did this while working 50 hrs a week and taking night classes and doing half of all the household chores. I slept maybe 5 hours a night on average, less during the week. I definitely was not too exhausted for sex, I had a pretty rampant sex life.

[Mya Stone]

[sarcasm] That's very nice of him, being the 100% parent for 4 days out of 7. I'm shocked that he isn't the one with the low libido, since he's doing everything.[/sarcasm]

Really, can you see that his statement of position might be a little self-serving? If he's doing all of this stuff, why isn't he the one too exhausted to be romantic??? On the other hand, if by saying "for the 4 days when he is off he does everything" includes loafing around the house and watching TV while sort of playing with the baby, that seems more realistic for most men who say they do "everything" with the baby while yet maintaining a roaring interest in sex.

Hey Chats, that sound you just heard was my roaring laughter and the breeze you felt was my attempt to high five you from 1000 miles away.

The reality is that most men's opinions on what is "enough" or "everything" is completely different from womens'. For example, if I say "Would you mind picking up after the baby?" what usually happens are the toys are put in the vicinity of the toy box, but not in the toy box, but hey, at least they aren't all over the floor. Oh, and yeah, there are a few left out because they were in another room, not the living room, but it's mostly picked up, so what's the issue?

So sure, your very expert perception of this may be that he's doing everything, bigfatcoward, but perhaps it's not the same amount of everything that the woman would include.

[turinturambar]

1. Every situation is different. Your situation was different from my situation, and we are both carrying our very different perspectives and experiences into this discussion.

Your experiences may make you more sympathetic to the man in this situation; but all I can see is a cad who just wants to step out on his wife with no discussion beforehand.

2. I made the mistake of seeing a doctor and the ex was in the room. The doctor said "12 weeks", and the ex gave me 12 weeks.

1. Yes, every situation is different. But without knowing the true facts, I must take the situation at face value as it's told. Your experience isn't everybody's experience, just because you went through a rough time doesn't make this person a liar. All you can do to judge the situation is take the information given. IF he did everything he could then he has every right to be pretty damn bitter and could/should leave her. He says he has tried to help her to fix the situation, if he says this then I must take it at face value, I have no reason to call him a liar. I've had some pretty shitty situations with past relationships as well, but that's not an excuse for me to label every woman in such a way.

2. You should have seen the Dr again after the 12 weeks was over and explained the pain to him to see if anything could be done. Your husband should have been more sympathetic to the pain you were experiencing.

[Insert Edit]

Hey Chats, that sound you just heard was my roaring laughter and the breeze you felt was my attempt to high five you from 1000 miles away.

The reality is that most men's opinions on what is "enough" or "everything" is completely different from womens'. For example, if I say "Would you mind picking up after the baby?" what usually happens are the toys are put in the vicinity of the toy box, but not in the toy box, but hey, at least they aren't all over the floor. Oh, and yeah, there are a few left out because they were in another room, not the living room, but it's mostly picked up, so what's the issue?

So sure, your very expert perception of this may be that he's doing everything, bigfatcoward, but perhaps it's not the same amount of everything that the woman would include.

While there's a lot of truth to the mirth, I don't think it can be argued that men aren't becoming more and more involved with child rearing. My father's involvement was a lot higher than his father's, and mine made my father's look like a walk in the park. We are getting better.

[Mya Stone]

While there's a lot of truth to the mirth, I don't think it can be argued that men aren't becoming more and more involved with child rearing. My father's involvement was a lot higher than his father's, and mine made my father's look like a walk in the park. We are getting better.

Oh, I agree 100%. But the simple truth is, for most men and women, our definitions for things vary greatly. I've just learned to be incredibly specific with what I would like done. And this is not a dis against my SO, by any means. It's all about learning how to communicate with your partner...which is pretty obviously the main issue with bigfatcoward's friend.

[Seventh Pup]

Honestly BFC it sounds like your friend and his wife some communication brake downs happening. If your friend is as hungry of intimacy as you make him sound I truly doubt that him having an affair is going to help his relationship with his wife. He needs to step back and figure out what he needs, and figure out what he's willing to sacrifice to get it.

I truly doubt he is as much the victim as you make him sound. It is SO SO SO much easier to feel wronged, then to realize you wronged somebody. It can be even easier to feel it when someone wrongs your friends. I am sure he is feeling cheated right now, and resentful, and if he thinks he is not conveying that he is probably wrong.

In the end we can only control our own behaviors, and he needs to figure out where his line in the sand is. If he wants to make this relationship work, then he needs to have an honest conversation with her about it. It seems highly unlikely that merely having an affair in this situation will have any benefit to the relationship. And if in the end saving the relationship is what he is after he needs to know that. He is better off biting the bullet and frankly talking to her about what he needs. Though he should have an option other then sex that he can present to her first, such as counseling. (No one likes to be blackmailed into sex.)

Also he should talk to her about stuff VENIS. Make a point to have contact such as kissing, in situations that will not lead immediately to sex. He should do things like write love letters for her to find when he is working those 12 shifts. He should set up a date night where the kid is being watched by the grandparents. In other words he should establish that he finds her attractive, and not just temporarily so he can get her in the sack.

What he shouldn't do is assume that the habits that worked pre baby and going to work post baby. They are in a new faze of their relationship and if he needs to appreciate that. If after all that it still doesn't get better, he needs to tell her he feels it's time to open up the relationship. If she refuses it might be time to walk away.

I'm not saying that your friend didn't get a raw deal, and doesn't have a suck for him. I'm a firm believer that men need to feel sexy too. Your friends need for intimacy is a good thing, and his wife should be giving him something to help fulfill his needs. He probably very understandably feels abandoned. However if he has an affair then he is also abandoning his wife. Two wrong don't make a right, if he wants his marriage to work he should probably go about it in a different way.

[tenalpia]

Oh, I agree 100%. But the simple truth is, for most men and women, our definitions for things vary greatly. I've just learned to be incredibly specific with what I would like done. And this is not a dis against my SO, by any means. It's all about learning how to communicate with your partner...which is pretty obviously the main issue with bigfatcoward's friend.

I don't think it's so much about men and women having different definitions but any two people will have varying definitions. I know that my ex was far tidier than I am - my idea of 'tidy' used to drive him round the twist and his tutting and re-doing of it left me seething!

[Seventh Pup]

I think we can make some assumptions as to what the vast majority of people would be doing. When the OP says that this guy has tried "everything", but "everything" doesn't include a discussion of opening up the relationship or marriage counseling, then to me, it doesn't seem that "everything" truly has been tried, or even touched upon.

While I agree that if he does try everything, he should be able to leave the relationship happy in the feeling that is was really all her and not him, VERY few relationships are poisoned in only one direction. As others have said, it takes two to tango, and while what we hear (from a non-neutral third party, the guy's friend) is that she isn't trying hard in the relationship, that's clearly not the whole story.

Chats sometimes I really love you. :lol:

[Mya Stone]

I don't think it's so much about men and women having different definitions but any two people will have varying definitions. I know that my ex was far tidier than I am - my idea of 'tidy' used to drive him round the twist and his tutting and re-doing of it left me seething!

Very true, ten. I agree it varies more on a person-to-person basis. My bad...I was mainly speaking from my own personal experiences, where I used to actually refold laundry that Dub had folded because it wasn't folded the way I liked it. I learned that you know what, he is making the effort to help, it doesn't have to be my way all the time, and to accept the help as is.

That took time, though. :P

[Ixodes]

Sex is not the end-all and be-all of a marriage. My wife's vagina is not my property. If there are fundamental problems in the relationship then he needs to address those with his wife and new child. What is "cheating" is only relevant to those in the relationship. If he is looking for permission outside of his spouse, he is driving himself to failure.

Yes, it sucks when things change in a way that is unpredicted. But life sucks, sometimes. If his wife was suffering with pancreatic cancer or psychosis or insert any other life issue, would the question in the OP still be relevant? Sometimes one person in a relationship has to work harder than they expect to make it work.