Infidelity - when, if ever is it acceptable.

[GoN]

Is sex equally pleasurable when devoid of an emotional connection?

Yep. :smoking:

[Arthmail]

Yep. :smoking:

I agree. Sometimes angry sex with someone you might actively dislike is the best to be had. Not good for long term, but not bad for a one off.

Or a 12 off.

[TheKassi]

Is sex equally pleasurable when devoid of an emotional connection?

Little is truly devoid of emotion for the average person, but sex can be grand without being wrapped up in hallmark emotions. There are many flavors to the emotional side of sex, even without getting into the kinky. I recommend exploration.

In my personal opinion the idea that sex enveloped by 'impure' emotions is some how lessor is one of the most destructive aspects of modern culture. Not to knock traditional romance, it is fantastic, but it isn't the only instrument in the orchestra. Acting otherwise seems to cause a lot of grief, particularly in women who often feel ashamed after engaging in 'impure' sexual intercourse.

[Seventh Pup]

To comment on this particular poster’s query I would say we need more information such as…

How helpful if your buddy being with the baby, is she allowed any alone time? How proactive has he been in investigating the cause, and helping her overcome it. Does he look at it as “her problem” or “their problem”. What was their sex life like before the baby? How old are they? What kind of a support system does she have for the baby outside of him? Do they still go on dates? What does he do to tell her he finds her sexually attractive? Is he only looking for penetrative sex, or is he trying to instigate things like oral sex or hand jobs? Has she talked to a doctor about her decreased sex drive?

In general though sex that is not monogamous is not bad thing; when it is bad thing is when one partner thinks they are in a monogamous relationship.

For me monogamy is as big a part of my sexuality as gender orientation. I need my partner to be monogamous, just as I need my partner to be an adult male. Now perhaps both have a cultural element in them, but however they became part of my psyche they are there. My sexuality is an integral part of who I am and I’m not apologizing for that.

If I was with someone who needed orgasms while I wasn’t there, I’d support that. But I would support that with masturbation, not with a partner. Masturbation is still an orgasm, and with the wealth of self pleasuring things out there I think we could find something to make all parties happy.

But if I am not enough for my partner, and they have needs beyond me I have a right to know. I have a right to make a decision if I am okay with that or not. I have a right to know what kind of sexual relationship I am having with my partner. If my partner does not let me know, and then changes our relationship, if I find out I am going to feel very betrayed. I am trusting my partner with an integral part of myself, and then they dismiss it, degrade it, then that is going to hurt the hell out of me because I trusted them.

It is about more then just sex, it is about sexuality.

[Filippa Eilhart]

I think it can be reasonably expected that having a baby will seriously limit the amount of sex. While a year without sex might be a bit extreme (though, having never had a bay, I can't really comment), as someone mentioned upthread having a baby is tiring, it is a major change in lifestyle, it fucks with the woman's hormones... it's not like the woman just decides she doesn't want to have sex with her partner anymore. In a way, I would compare it to illness/mental distress situation GoN mentions.

then again, I think my partner *would* have a right to feel quite unhappy if i didn't have sex with him for a year, baby or no baby :P

[Mentat]

Little is truly devoid of emotion for the average person, but sex can be grand without being wrapped up in hallmark emotions. There are many flavors to the emotional side of sex, even without getting into the kinky. I recommend exploration.

In my personal opinion the idea that sex enveloped by 'impure' emotions is some how lessor is one of the most destructive aspects of modern culture. Not to knock traditional romance, it is fantastic, but it isn't the only instrument in the orchestra. Acting otherwise seems to cause a lot of grief, particularly in women who often feel ashamed after engaging in 'impure' sexual intercourse.

Hmmm... a very interesting perspective. Thank you.

As for the OP, I agree the marriage in question seems to have issues that need solving. At first I would have said 'cheating' will likely create at least as many problems as it could solve, but I guess maybe the spouse in question might be happy with her husband finding relief she'd rather not provide elsewhere? And the husband might be able to hook up with (or pay) someone who is willing to do this without interfering with his current relationship? My gut instinct still thinks that this might sound good on paper, but is likely to blow up if put into practice, your friend and his wife might want to talk about it, though.

[Lany Freelove Cassandra]

Not surprising, I am with Stego and GoN.

First thing he needs to do is talk to his partner. There could be some serious problems with her. I know how exhausting having a baby is, but after the first few months, things did (at least for me) kind of even out. There are plenty of things in a relationship more important than sex. If your partner has been exhausted for over a year, you should be worried that something might be wrong. Focusing on your sexual needs while ignoring possible health concerns is very selfish and that is more unforgivable than having sex with someone else.

[WhiteHaven]

Uh. That's pretty hard. I'd say that I am with Stego.

However, there is a "but".

Let's say that I could not have sex with my Girlfriend (or wife) because I just don't feel like it or I have other things on my mind for a long time, my brain would tell me, that if she needs it and I don't want to have sex with her she should be free to get it somewhere else.

The problem is, I could never again have sex with her. I think. So...yeah well it is acceptable but I think it will destroy some part of the relationship forever.

[Mya Stone]

As someone guilty of some of the things Stego posted (:blushing:), I have to say I'm mainly in agreement with him on this one. The "only venting" is potentially much more hurtful than having physical indiscretion(s).

With that being said, I'd also like to say that as someone who has had a baby in the last couple of years, it is incredibly hard to balance being a new parent, working a full time job, keeping up on housework, and being a supportive and attentive significant other. On top of that, I myself feel infinitely less attractive post-baby than I did pre-baby (or even while I was pregnant). Perhaps that's part of your friend's SO's issues. Having a child is traumatic on a woman's body and mind. There's a lot more going on besides "just being tired," but perhaps instead of following your train of thought on this and running out and fucking the next thing that spreads their legs for him, your friend could try and help her get over her hangups together, as partners.

It's amazing what a little "I appreciate you" or "You are still amazingly beautiful to me" will do.

[tenalpia]

My idea of infidelity is about cheating / lying / taking someone's idea of their relationship with you and smooshing it all over the ground with the heel of your boot.

I see that as unacceptable, not necessarily unforgiveable.

If you and your partner have agreed that taking other sexual partners is acceptable then it's not infidelity. Different relationships have different boundaries but both people in the relationship should know what they are.

[turinturambar]

My friends partner had a child 13 months ago and they haven't had sex since, does there come a time when it is basically ok to be unfaithful in these circumstances?

p.s. there is no medical issues, she just says she is too tired.

I think he has been a saint by waiting this long, but he is a much better person than i am.

Without an intimate relationship they're nothing more than roommates. He should definitely talk to her first and try to seek help with the situation, but if all else fails then I wouldn't blame him one bit. 13 months isn't ok, even if she's suffering from depression, and she should know that. It's a two way street though, he needs to find out what the problem is and try to fix it first before putting himself on the black market.

[Guest Raidne]

You know, as much as I'm generally open to a lot of the ideas on being flexible with the arrangements that are mentioned in this thread, I'm going to guess that the first couple of years after giving birth are going to fall squarely in the "not the right time for experimenting with the relationship" category.

Also, I'll say it one more time, if I want to bitch to my sister or my best friend or, even, the Board about, say, unequal allocations of household tasks, and I've addressed the issue with my partner already, I don't think it says a damn thing about the longevity, quality, or experience of the relationship except that I still exist as a person outside of it.

People have different ideas about this. Different things work for different people. I'm getting rather weary of people projecting their judgment all over other people's arrangements while at the same time expressing disdain for people who judge other people's arrangements.

OTOH, people who conduct pitched battles on Facebook? Yeah, I'm making an exception for them. They're screwed.

[turinturambar]

Infidelity is never acceptable.

The very implication of the word is that there is a loss of trust.

If you don't want to be with someone, be adult enough to admit it. End the relationship then go out and shag anything that moves.

Infidelity comes in many forms, and cutting off all intimate relations with your partner is one of them. Both of them have issues they need to work out with each other.

It blows my mind that people think sex is the unforgivable crime, whereas publicly demeaning your fucking LIFE PARTNER is a common event.

Both are bad in a monogamous relationship. Sex is a way of bonding and loving your partner, when you do this with somebody else you are giving them the affection that you expect from your life partner, and that is never ok unless previously agreed upon. Yet in a monogamous relationship, depriving your life partner of these needs is just as bad, and I think it would be difficult for any person, male or female, to not feel bitter in either case.

[Rubies & Jade]

It's not cheating if it's not against the rules of the relationship. Under the circumstances, I think it would be entirely reasonable for him to discuss with her whether the rules should be revised.

This. clearly something is not right, and being in a relationship where you aren't getting what you want out of it sucks. But the next step is a discussion, not just going out and cheating. Maybe she does just need more time to recover from baby. maybe she needs some help from him with taking care of baby. Maybe they need a non-monogomous relationship. There are lots of options.

You know, as much as I'm generally open to a lot of the ideas on being flexible with the arrangements that are mentioned in this thread, I'm going to guess that the first couple of years after giving birth are going to fall squarely in the "not the right time for experimenting with the relationship" category.

I think I probably agree with this, too. the first year after having a baby means that there is a lot going on. but certainly a very honest conversation is in order.

[tenalpia]

Infidelity comes in many forms, and cutting off all intimate relations with your partner is one of them. Both of them have issues they need to work out with each other.

I don't understand how you think that not having sex with your partner is the same thing as infidelity? Infidelity means that you are being unfaithful to your partner. How is not having sex being unfaithful?

Also there appears to be an implication that 'giving it up' is something is required of a partner whether they want to or not. The idea that you can demand sex from someone is a bit screwed up. Talk to your partner, find a way to deal with the situation but it is not ok to say that because they aren't having sex with you then they have to accept you going off and having sex with someone else - sexual blackmail is not a good basis for any relationship.

If sex is important to you and your partner doesn't want to have sex with you and they don't want you have sex with anyone else either then you are both in the wrong relationship.

[Chaldanya]

Thanks, Ten, that's exactly what I was thinking.

N

[turinturambar]

I don't understand how you think that not having sex with your partner is the same thing as infidelity? Infidelity means that you are being unfaithful to your partner. How is not having sex being unfaithful?

Because a sexual relationship in a marriage or partnership is part of the bond of the relationship. Giving that love and affection to somebody else is a reprehensible thing in a monogamous relationship. But denying your partner love and affection is just as bad imo.

Also there appears to be an implication that 'giving it up' is something is required of a partner whether they want to or not. The idea that you can demand sex from someone is a bit screwed up. Talk to your partner, find a way to deal with the situation but it is not ok to say that because they aren't having sex with you then they have to accept you going off and having sex with someone else - sexual blackmail is not a good basis for any relationship.

It's not about demanding sex. I think you are under the assumption that sex is a physical thing. While sex has a physical aspect, it goes far beyond just physical pleasure. Sex can be had without the emotional side of things, but it can be much more. People have needs, both physical and emotional and when you take on a life partnership with somebody you are agreeing to take them on as your lover, to love and to hold through sickness and in health. You are agreeing to share your life experiences, your emotions, your desires both emotional and physical. Completely cutting off sex is withdrawing yourself physically and emotionally and that's damaging to ANY relationship and to deny that is to deny human nature.

If sex is important to you and your partner doesn't want to have sex with you and they don't want you have sex with anyone else either then you are both in the wrong relationship.

agreed. If a sexual relationship wasn't important to me I would have married my best friend. But he doesn't really do it for me.

[Eyelesbarrow]

Uh, I guess I need a little more info. Like, maybe he's a stay-at-home Dad, so there's no possibility whatsoever that she's metaphorically dying under the load of having a new child without sufficient help from the spouse, or there's no chance whatsoever that she's suffering from PPD?

This. To the OP, has your friend talked to the wife about the possibility of her being depressed because she just had a baby?

On top of that, I myself feel infinitely less attractive post-baby than I did pre-baby (or even while I was pregnant). Perhaps that's part of your friend's SO's issues. Having a child is traumatic on a woman's body and mind. There's a lot more going on besides "just being tired," but perhaps instead of following your train of thought on this and running out and fucking the next thing that spreads their legs for him, your friend could try and help her get over her hangups together, as partners.

Word. Pregnancy is indeed traumatic physically and emotionally. It's a new life for everyone and people sometimes are unmoored by changes.

They've got a kid - in a way, they're just starting out as a family. Would he throw that away just for sex, which can be potentially damaging to the wife? (Of course, he can hide the affair, but you never know. These things often explode even when one hides them/ when one least expect them to.)

[Mlle. Zabzie]

1. In the abstract, infidelity can be forgiveable, but is not necessarily acceptable. In my book "infidelity" means straying from the rules of the road of the relationship. If the relationship is supposed to be monogamous, then to me, it's infidelity if one partner on his or her own behalf "steps out" without discussing and agreeing to a change in the rules of the road with his or her partner. Also, there are very good reasons to want and expect a monogamous relationship. Most practically, let me tell you, if I ever got infected with something because my (supposedly monogamous) partner was sleeping with other people, that would be both unforgiveable, unacceptable, and would spark possibly murderous rage inside of me.

2. On the OP's question, I also think there is something else going on. I think before he gives up in disgust and walks away (which to me is what it kind of sounds like he wants to do), they should at least talk about the issue.

[BigFatCoward]

To comment on this particular posters query I would say we need more information such as…

How helpful if your buddy being with the baby, is she allowed any alone time? How proactive has he been in investigating the cause, and helping her overcome it. Does he look at it as her problem or their problem. What was their sex life like before the baby? How old are they? What kind of a support system does she have for the baby outside of him? Do they still go on dates? What does he do to tell her he finds her sexually attractive? Is he only looking for penetrative sex, or is he trying to instigate things like oral sex or hand jobs? Has she talked to a doctor about her decreased sex drive?

He is a proper hands on dad, both sets of grandparents are nearby and give a lot of help, they were a pair of filthbags before the baby came along. he admits he was just as wiped out as she was for the first few months and never wanted any himself until about 4 months. he has repeatedly asked if there is anything he can do or a doctor could do to help her, but she just says she is tired, you cannot force someone to get help. he started off being more worried (about her as well as the lack of sex) than angry but as time has went on he is becoming more angry and less understanding, frankly he thinks she is taking the piss.

by the way it isn't just penetrative sex, it is any sort of sexual release whatsoever.