Father's Rights (Children)

[Greywolf2375]

'Emotionally traumatic'? How so?

My guess would be the sharp knife near the testicles thing. I've never had one, so I can only go on what I have been told.

[Balefont]

@ Silanh :lol:

ETA: I hate quick reply.

[Tempra]

This may be shocking to you people, but some guys get vasectomies not because they truly want the surgery, but because they can't afford to have anymoe kids.

I won't say that it is more traumatic than an abortion, though for some individuals it may be, but it is rather inappropriate to downplay and even ridicule the procedure.

[mormont]

My guess would be the sharp knife near the testicles thing. I've never had one, so I can only go on what I have been told.

I have to admit, I was chatting with the nurse during the bit with the sharp knife. (Turned out I worked with her sister-in-law.)

ETA - why would that shock us, Tempra? And I am the last person to ridicule the procedure, having had it. As an operation, which is what bfc was talking about, it's not that traumatic. The reasons for that operation, that's a whole other topic.

[BigFatCoward]

Also, I find your views on pregnancy really offensive

i haven't expressed a single opinion about pregnancy, i've expressed opinions about how this is one of the few areas in society where women get the upper hand (and to a certain extent the hypocracy of women).

and in reply to everyone who doesn't think a vasectomy is an emotionally traumatic experience, thats your bag (pun intended) everyone i know thougth it was a massive step to remove their ability to have children (the reversal op is not a sure thing). in every case it was their partners putting pressure on them to have it, apparently taking the pill is more hassle than having your balls hacked at.

anyway, fuck it, i didn't expect anyone to agree with me anyway.

[MinDonner]

apparently taking the pill is more hassle than having your balls hacked at.

Something you have to do every day, which causes extra bleeding if you forget, which puts you at extra risk of strokes, deep vein thrombosis and all sorts of other nasties, which causes some lovely mood swings and depressions...? fuck yes, I'd say it's more hassle than one small operation that you can get under local anaesthetic.

[Sariel]

Child support is not about enriching the other parent. It's money given to the child. It's an important distinction to make. Sure the mother could've had an abortion, but that's not relevent as the money is not for her, it's for the kid and the kid had no say.

I would like to point out though that I find how custody is largely based on gender of the parent to be disgusting on a number of levels. We're striving for an equal society and as such which parent is granted custody should be based on which of the two will be most able to provide for the child irregardless of gender.

[Lyanna Stark]

and in reply to everyone who doesn't think a vasectomy is an emotionally traumatic experience, thats your bag (pun intended) everyone i know thougth it was a massive step to remove their ability to have children (the reversal op is not a sure thing). in every case it was their partners putting pressure on them to have it, apparently taking the pill is more hassle than having your balls hacked at.

anyway, fuck it, i didn't expect anyone to agree with me anyway.

Sariel mentioned some side effects, but there are more effects by taking the pill. I got depressed myself and didn't even realise it until I stopped. Taking the pill is no small thing to do, even though it is seen as nothing by loads of people.

My main argument however was not whether a vasectomy is an emotionally traumatic experience or not; it's that nobody can force you to have one. In the end, regardless of peer pressure, partners insisting, your mum being against it, etc etc it is only up to you and nobody else.

Regarding your views expressed on pregnancy above, they're facetious. Yes a few women insist on telling everyone how blooming marvellous it is that they are pregnant, how amazing it is and how they're loving every minute of it. Except that they'd be lying through their teeth if they thought this 100% of the time. Pregnancy can be exciting and amazing, but it's also annoying, painful, vomitous (thanks Silanah), worrying, boring and extremely uncomfortable. Sometimes it can be almost all the above at the same time, too.

[BigFatCoward]

My main argument however was not whether a vasectomy is an emotionally traumatic experience or not; it's that nobody can force you to have one. In the end, regardless of peer pressure, partners insisting, your mum being against it, etc etc it is only up to you and nobody else.

so its exactly the same as an abortion then in that regard isn't it.

anyway i'm leaving now, nobody ever came accross well arguing against women's rights in reproduction.

[Tempra]

Sariel mentioned some side effects, but there are more effects by taking the pill. I got depressed myself and didn't even realise it until I stopped. Taking the pill is no small thing to do, even though it is seen as nothing by loads of people.

My main argument however was not whether a vasectomy is an emotionally traumatic experience or not; it's that nobody can force you to have one. In the end, regardless of peer pressure, partners insisting, your mum being against it, etc etc it is only up to you and nobody else.

Really? So no matter whether your partner verbally abuses you, threatens to leave you, cut you off financially, or other otherwise makes your life miserable, it is still a voluntary act? Interesting. I'd be curious if you would be consistent when it came to the issue of sexual consent, but I will bite my tongue for the sake of the thread.

[ants]

Next time wear a condom. /thread

Doesn't do much for that case where the woman gave oral sex, saved the sperm and had the child. He was still on the hook for child support.

[Lyanna Stark]

Really? So no matter whether your partner verbally abuses you, threatens to leave you, cut you off financially, or other otherwise makes your life miserable, it is still a voluntary act? Interesting. I'd be curious if you would be consistent when it came to the issue of sexual consent, but I will bite my tongue for the sake of the thread.

I'm not even sure what it is you want to prove here. If your partner is being a total arse to you, maybe you should consider leaving instead of having a vasectomy?

I'm sure there are people who've done all sorts of things because of being pressured, including both vasectomy and abortion. For whatever reason, these people felt they did not have the freedom to make their own choices. The problem then is not that they had a vasectomy or an abortion, the problem is that they got forced. Forcing people or blackmailing people to do what you want is however not the topic of this thread.

I've no idea what you mean with sexual consent either. If you're posting on this topic, please actually post on topic instead of writing about stuff you're not going to post.

[Chaldanya]

Doesn't do much for that case where the woman gave oral sex, saved the sperm and had the child. He was still on the hook for child support.

Oh christ! How many times has this actually happened? I would like some numbers, please. Because otherwise I'm gonna consider this urban legend and move on...

Listen: You are never going to get to a point where everyone is happy. As has previously been said it's called Child Support because it's for the child and has nothing to do with the other parental unit.

N

[Sariel]

Doesn't do much for that case where the woman gave oral sex, saved the sperm and had the child. He was still on the hook for child support.

Again, seeing how this is not about the mother but about the child, and its existance is just as real no matter how it came about, such situations are hardly relevant.

[ants]

I don't know what drugs you are taking to maintain your internal consistency but they must be strong. The man could has avoided all this by shelling out for a condom. He contributed half the DNA, he made the choice to have unprotected sex as much as the woman and as such is equally responsible.

If he wants to see the kid he can, it's not that hard to get a court order for visitation rights. If not than a wallet is all the fucker deserves to be.

Since we're talking theoreticals here, why do you keep harping on about the Condom use? Its not like they (or any other) protection are 100% effective. You can take precautions and just be unlucky.

He might be able to visit the child. What chance does he have of being granted primary care?

[Lyanna Stark]

Since we're talking theoreticals here, why do you keep harping on about the Condom use? Its not like they (or any other) protection are 100% effective. You can take precautions and just be unlucky.

He might be able to visit the child. What chance does he have of being granted primary care?

Actually with proper usage a condom is really effective. Yes it CAN break or something else can happen, but most of the time improper usage is where it all falls down. (Needless to say I am very much in favour of more SexEd in schools so kids get to practise putting on a condom.)

Oh christ! How many times has this actually happened? I would like some numbers, please. Because otherwise I'm gonna consider this urban legend and move on...

Listen: You are never going to get to a point where everyone is happy. As has previously been said it's called Child Support because it's for the child and has nothing to do with the other parental unit.

N

And what she said. I am doubtful that this oral sex and self made impregnation has really taken place.

Since abortions, unwanted pregnancies etc are topics that really matter to people, you'll always find cases that are strange, weird or just plain odd. The important thing to remember though is: once a child is actually brough into this world, it deserves to be taken care of properly. In this I am the opposite of Res Ipsa who cares more for the unborn, while my concern is always for the kids who're already here.

[ants]

Okay...but in that case you're saying that instead of the father - ya know, the guy who was an idiot and had strong views on not having a child yet continued to have sex without protection with a woman not willing to have an abortion - paying child support, you'd rather that the entire country pay child support.

That sounds a bit foolish.

Single parents of all stripes need a lot more support than they get. But the simplest thing to do is actually hold the culpable responsible party...err...responsible. I don't see the advantage of doing something else.

You're assuming there aren't a whole host of flow on costs to having a system where one side is making decisions that will affect another's financial status for 20 odd years. That it doesn't skew decisions, doesn't flow on to worse outcomes for society (e.g. two parents who don't live together and provide for the child, but are at odds), and outcomes for the children.

And I've already said an alternative could be to change the various "rights". So if I, a very successful earner with a strong family and friend network wanted to have main custody of the child, maybe I should actually have a chance of being granted it.

You're also ignoring other choices. Adoption. This is a method that carries no cost to society, to the father or the child. Maybe if a woman wants to be a single mother she should get herself into a situation where she can provide? Otherwise, give the child up.

And if its the child's rights we're most concerned about, surely being raised by two parents via adoption is better than a single parent?

[Smashing Young Man]

You're assuming there aren't a whole host of flow on costs to having a system where one side is making decisions that will affect another's financial status for 20 odd years. That it doesn't skew decisions, doesn't flow on to worse outcomes for society (e.g. two parents who don't live together and provide for the child, but are at odds), and outcomes for the children.

And I've already said an alternative could be to change the various "rights". So if I, a very successful earner with a strong family and friend network wanted to have main custody of the child, maybe I should actually have a chance of being granted it.

You're also ignoring other choices. Adoption. This is a method that carries no cost to society, to the father or the child. Maybe if a woman wants to be a single mother she should get herself into a situation where she can provide? Otherwise, give the child up.

And if its the child's rights we're most concerned about, surely being raised by two parents via adoption is better than a single parent?

It's pretty simple really: in this, as in so much else, it's all about what the woman wants.

[ants]

Actually with proper usage a condom is really effective. Yes it CAN break or something else can happen, but most of the time improper usage is where it all falls down. (Needless to say I am very much in favour of more SexEd in schools so kids get to practise putting on a condom.)

In which case there won't be any problems, will there? What I'm trying to say is that framing this discussion around "well if he only had used protection he couldn't complain", which Thor appeared to be doing, isn't really the point of the discussion.

And what she said. I am doubtful that this oral sex and self made impregnation has really taken place.

Since abortions, unwanted pregnancies etc are topics that really matter to people, you'll always find cases that are strange, weird or just plain odd. The important thing to remember though is: once a child is actually brough into this world, it deserves to be taken care of properly. In this I am the opposite of Res Ipsa who cares more for the unborn, while my concern is always for the kids who're already here.

Well, it was a thread either here or on one of the previous boards. It was a number of years back certainly, but led to a similar discussion as this one.

[ants]

However, women CAN'T get out of providing child support for their own child either once the child is BORN. And that's the relevant situation to compare to decide whether it's unfair or not. Once the child is born, it has the right to be provided for by BOTH biological parents. So there is no discrimination against men in this respect. Men have to pay a (relatively small) lump sum per month, in Germany that's 317-781 Euro maximum, depending on the father's income. The mother pays for everything the child needs in advance though and has to try to get even that small sum back from the dad, often via lawsuits etc. I doubt the 317 Euro cover all the costs.

The only chance for both parents to get out of child support is to give up the child for adoption.

There is this thing called, um, "adoption". Which if the father doesn't want the child, is usually pretty hassle free.

Or as mentioned there are even rights in many places where the child can be abandoned into care.

Btw there was a lawsuit recently which confirmed that even sperm donors can be sued for child support in Germany, because the child's right to financial support overrules all the contracts the parents might have signed beforehand. The only chance for sperm donors to be safe is if the mother's husband acknowledges the child as his or adopts the child.

I really dislike this one. It effectively turns an act of charity (mostly :) ) back on the giver.