Father's Rights (Children)

[Liadin]

IMO, it should be a two way contract - if the woman doesn't also sign before entering into the relationship, then it's not valid.

I think that it's a more serious situation than "sucks to be you" for a person to have a child that they don't want.

Of course it's serious. But that doesn't make it right for the other parent to be shouldered with the entire burden of caring for the child when both were irresponsible, nor for a child to grow up in poverty because the father refuses to support him/her.

Also, the thing about this contract idea.... what woman is going to agree to sign something like that? One who doesn't expect to get pregnant, or one who figures she wouldn't need the child support payments (or perhaps one who assumes the contract would be found invalid if she took it to court, but leaving that possibility aside). If she doesn't expect to get pregnant, signs, but then gets pregnant by accident and doesn't believe in abortion, she's being penalized for a mistake that both of them made. And if she doesn't expect to need the child support payments, but later decides she does, then the child is being penalized for her miscalculation.

[Res ipsa loquitur]

Of course it's serious. But that doesn't make it right for the other parent to be shouldered with the entire burden of caring for the child when both were irresponsible, nor for a child to grow up in poverty because the father refuses to support him/her.

Also, the thing about this contract idea.... what woman is going to agree to sign something like that? One who doesn't expect to get pregnant, or one who figures she wouldn't need the child support payments (or perhaps one who assumes the contract would be found invalid if she took it to court, but leaving that possibility aside). If she doesn't expect to get pregnant, signs, but then gets pregnant by accident and doesn't believe in abortion, she's being penalized for a mistake that both of them made. And if she doesn't expect to need the child support payments, but later decides she does, then the child is being penalized for her miscalculation.

She is an adult to have sex, though yes? As an adult, if she signs a contract she can face the consequences of her choice to sign such. Saying a contract should be void or not allowed because the woman may later feel it was a mistake takes away the validity of womens rights as fully functional adults with the ability to enter into binding contracts of their own free will and desires.

[Eponine]

Of course it's serious. But that doesn't make it right for the other parent to be shouldered with the entire burden of caring for the child when both were irresponsible, nor for a child to grow up in poverty because the father refuses to support him/her.

Also, the thing about this contract idea.... what woman is going to agree to sign something like that? One who doesn't expect to get pregnant, or one who figures she wouldn't need the child support payments (or perhaps one who assumes the contract would be found invalid if she took it to court, but leaving that possibility aside). If she doesn't expect to get pregnant, signs, but then gets pregnant by accident and doesn't believe in abortion, she's being penalized for a mistake that both of them made. And if she doesn't expect to need the child support payments, but later decides she does, then the child is being penalized for her miscalculation.

There's no necessity that anyone was irresponsible, unless you think that anyone having sex without the intention to have and raise a child is irresponsible.

If a woman doesn't believe in abortion or would expect a man to provide child support if she got pregnant, then she shouldn't have sex with a man who insists on being contractually free from the responsibility of fatherhood. There's nothing compelling a woman to sign - like I said in my first post, it would decrease the dating pool of a man who declared ahead of time that he had no intention of being a father (as I have found that it greatly decreases the dating pool to be a woman who has no intention of being a mother). And it shouldn't be something that a man can request to have signed AFTER a pregnancy has occurred (although if the woman wants full custody, there's a good chance she'll get it, right or wrong). And also, there are women who would prefer to be single parents than be shackled to a one night stand because of a pregnancy - as evidenced by the fact that there are women who purposely choose to conceive or adopt as single parents.

[Lyanna Stark]

She is an adult to have sex, though yes? As an adult, if she signs a contract she can face the consequences of her choice to sign such. Saying a contract should be void or not allowed because the woman may later feel it was a mistake takes away the validity of womens rights as fully functional adults with the ability to enter into binding contracts of their own free will and desires.

A woman can't contract away the child support since it's a child's right, not hers. Just like I can't sell your house and take the money: it was not mine to start with.

See the difference?

It's interesting that you are such a staunch supporter of foetuses' rights, but once the kid is born, you don't care about its rights anymore. Why is an unborn more important than an actually living, breathing person?

Regarding the OP's issue, it's everyone's responsibility to provide their own contraception. If you don't want to end up with a kid, you take precautions. That means for women condoms and pills (etc) and for men condoms.

In a longer term relationship it's probably a good idea to find out whether or not the significant other has weird ideas about abortions or not and how they'd think about getting pregnant.

Condoms are excellent anyway since they protect against STDs.

[Chaldanya]

Lyanna: Stop making so much sense you may break the internet.

Res Ipsa: We get it. You hate abortion there really is no need to bring it into this thread which ostensibly is about what happens after the child is born.

N

[palimpsest.]

I think this depends on the situation very much, but in general, as many of you already said, they should be aware that sex can get you pregnant. Condoms and pills are not 100% safe, as we all know, so if you're dead against having children, you really should use both, or a third or get a vasectomy. I can understand that there can be a lot of hard feelings if a woman really wants to have a child and her partner really doesn't, and she then gets pregnant, but usually, there are lots of other factors contributing to the situation - lack of communication between the two (neither telling the other how they feel about having children), the woman lying about her contraception, the man feeling that he's being wronged by having to pay child support ... And, after all, it's not always the 'she wanted a baby, so she stopped taking pills and didn't tell me' scenario. What if an accident really happen, and then the woman feels she doesn't want to have an abortion?

But yes, I agree with those who said that child support is a child's, and not man's (or woman's) right. And tell me, what amount do men actually have to pay? Because in Slovenia, the number is actually quite small - I admit I don't know how much do you have to pay when your child is still an infant or toddler, but for older kids, the minimum is 50€/month, which I don't think is really that much. Many fathers don't even pay that because even if the mother sues, the court process takes ages. I know quite a few people who are resentful towards their fathers because of that - and those fathers agreed to have a kid.

As a feminist, equality is what I strive for; equal rights for women, and not special rights for women.

Every time you say that you're a feminist I can't help but think you're trolling.

Fun fact: do you know that men and women are biologically different? And that one of the most important differences is that women can get pregnant and give birth to babies?

This fact alone necessitates 'special' rights for women in order to achieve equality.

[Lyanna Stark]

Every time you say that you're a feminist I can't help but think you're trolling.

And it makes me want to cry for humanity that someone who hates women's rights so much calls herself a feminist.

[Lord O' Bones]

Yet, the man, in a consentual act of sex, is pretty screwed all around.

If she's doing it right.

[BigFatCoward]

i don't know about other countries, but in the uk if you have an accidental pregancy (which is what we seem to be talking about cos i don't think anybody would object to supporting their child which was born in wedlock or commited relationship) the men get pretty much jack shit rights. they don't have what is called 'parental responsibility' unless you the parents were married at the time of birth, or you go to court to be given those rights. so until we get the same rights with parental responsiblity and decision making in regards to abortion i don't see why we have to pay half. we should pay, but we should pay an amount commensurate with the decision making capabilities we get.

alternatively go greek!

[Tempra]

In the US, as other countries, the right of child support belongs to the child. I don't have any problem with this, as both parties made a conscious decision to have sex. I think the bigger issue is the AMOUNT of child support. I think the only amount that should be required, of either men or women, is enough child support so the kid doesn't live in poverty and is not a drain on society. I don't think there is much of an argument for requiring a parent to pay more than is necessary to keep the kid from requiring taxpayer funded safety nets.

[Chaldanya]

...decision making in regards to abortion

And this is where you loose me. You don't get to decide about abortion because it isn't your body that is carrying the fetus to term; anything other than the woman in question deciding is slavery.

How are we in the 21st century and still not recognising that?

I personally think that men should be responsible for their own fertility i.e. use a condom, have a vasectomy, don't have PIV intercourse. This is everything that a woman is told to not get pregnant.

Why you would trust someone else with your own procreation is beyond me? It's one of the risks you run when having sex.

I don't want to get pregnant so I have a coil, I'm taking responsibility so I don't have to worry about a surprise pregnancy.

N

[Prue]

Ahh...but here you are wrong, as women CAN wash their hands of pregnancy. Sure, they dont sign an affidavit...they just kill their own child. Abortion certainly allows women to disclaim all responsibility (as its hardly at all responsible to kill a child). Men here should be able to do the equivalent and get out of paying for a kid they never wanted. That is fair, to men and to women. If its a womans choice, alone, and he never wanted it, no man should be on the hook for it.

However, women CAN'T get out of providing child support for their own child either once the child is BORN. And that's the relevant situation to compare to decide whether it's unfair or not. Once the child is born, it has the right to be provided for by BOTH biological parents. So there is no discrimination against men in this respect. Men have to pay a (relatively small) lump sum per month, in Germany that's 317-781 Euro maximum, depending on the father's income. The mother pays for everything the child needs in advance though and has to try to get even that small sum back from the dad, often via lawsuits etc. I doubt the 317 Euro cover all the costs.

The only chance for both parents to get out of child support is to give up the child for adoption.

Btw there was a lawsuit recently which confirmed that even sperm donors can be sued for child support in Germany, because the child's right to financial support overrules all the contracts the parents might have signed beforehand. The only chance for sperm donors to be safe is if the mother's husband acknowledges the child as his or adopts the child.

[BigFatCoward]

And this is where you loose me. You don't get to decide about abortion because it isn't your body that is carrying the fetus to term; anything other than the woman in question deciding is slavery.

and you don't get to tell men to have an invasive and emotionally traumatic operation.

why is having a vasectomy any less of an issue than having an abortion.

how come carrying a baby is a gift, a joy, the greatest experience on earth, except when it isn't and its an inconvenience?

[Tempra]

And this is where you loose me. You don't get to decide about abortion because it isn't your body that is carrying the fetus to term; anything other than the woman in question deciding is slavery.

How are we in the 21st century and still not recognising that?

Because this "right" isn't as self-evident as you believe. Look, I am content with keeping abortion available as it currently is in the US, but the issue isn't black and white as you portray it. Obviously pro-lifers believe that abortion is the murder of a child, which is why they advocate subordinating women's rights to the rights of the unborn. Further, I am sure they do not feel a lot of empathy towards a women who engaged in consensual sex and got pregnant as a result, just as there is little sympathy for men paying child support.

[Tempra]

However, women CAN'T get out of providing child support for their own child either once the child is BORN. And that's the relevant situation to compare to decide whether it's unfair or not. Once the child is born, it has the right to be provided for by BOTH biological parents. So there is no discrimination against men in this respect. Men have to pay a (relatively small) lump sum per month, in Germany that's 317-781 Euro maximum, depending on the father's income. The mother pays for everything the child needs in advance though and has to try to get even that small sum back from the dad, often via lawsuits etc. I doubt the 317 Euro cover all the costs.

The only chance for both parents to get out of child support is to give up the child for adoption.

Btw there was a lawsuit recently which confirmed that even sperm donors can be sued for child support in Germany, because the child's right to financial support overrules all the contracts the parents might have signed beforehand. The only chance for sperm donors to be safe is if the mother's husband acknowledges the child as his or adopts the child.

I believe there are laws in some states that protect individuals (women would be the primary beneficiary I suspect) from prosecution if they abandon their child at a safe place like a church or hospital.

[Lyanna Stark]

and you don't get to tell men to have an invasive and emotionally traumatic operation.

why is having a vasectomy any less of an issue than having an abortion.

how come carrying a baby is a gift, a joy, the greatest experience on earth, except when it isn't and its an inconvenience?

What? nobody is telling you to have a vasectomy. What is SAID is that you are responsible for your own reproduction. It's an option, not something that will be forced on you.

Same as a pregnancy should not be forced ona woman.

Also, I find your views on pregnancy really offensive, and I have been pregnant with a planned child.

[Chaldanya]

and you don't get to tell men to have an invasive and emotionally traumatic operation.

why is having a vasectomy any less of an issue than having an abortion.

how come carrying a baby is a gift, a joy, the greatest experience on earth, except when it isn't and its an inconvenience?

Except that women do not have the legal right to tell men to have a vasectomy, where as in your post up above you said you wanted men to have the legal right to have a say in abortion decisions. I just said it was one of the options for a man to ensure that there is no unwanted pregnancies that he helped create. I'm not sure how I can be any clearer.

Is the bolded part a genuine question? Cause if so the answer is actually in the question...

N

eta: standardising pov's and pronouns

[mormont]

and you don't get to tell men to have an invasive and emotionally traumatic operation.

why is having a vasectomy any less of an issue than having an abortion.

'Emotionally traumatic'? How so?

[Balefont]

'Emotionally traumatic'? How so?

Yeah, I wanna know, too. Because that statement made me both laugh and cry on the inside.

Maybe having sharp objects near one's cajones?

[Chaldanya]

Maybe having sharp objects near one's cajones?

Maybe violating the sanctity of the sacred sac is the issue?

N

ps I know bad taste but I really couldn't resist the alliteration there...